@Kestrel He totally would, his audience likes it just the way it is.
Jokes aside, you make one very important other point: Writing fiction is LONELY. Mu*s are a way to alleviate some of that loneliness and get some creative juices flowing. Writing a 120k words novel is a process of literally 2-3 years for most writers, during which you get feedback of maybe 1-4 people at most. The rest of that time? You, just you, and nothing but you.
@Pyrephox I am tempted towards saying, take the course in creative writing first. Learn the basics of the craft. And then play a MU* in the same way that many writers use writing prompts -- to keep flexing the creative muscle. Because a MU* is indeed not a piece of fiction, and some of the fundamental mechanics are very very different. It's a way to stay sharp, but it is not learning how linear written fiction works.
@Derp said in Getting into Writing:
@L-B-Heuschkel said in Getting into Writing:
you learn ALL THE THINGS about pacing, keeping people interesting, setting scenes and moods, and moving a plot.
Do you though? Do you?
I mean, given that there are no small number of criticisms about our distinct lack of ability to do this, I sometimes wonder. You'd think that it would be a way to learn, but many of us seem to be lacking in some essential element.
I'm going to go with yes, if you want to, and you treat it as that -- a writing exercise. MU* people don't start out knowing how to do these things. They learn them as they go, and the more they pay attention to trying to learn, the faster they learn. And some, indeed, give no fucks and never learn. Just like a course in creative writing in real life, really.
I think the important thing to remember there is that we're at different places in our learning process and we want different things. What's an intense, emotional scene of great beauty to me may be eighty lines of purple prose to you and can we get on with the murderhoboing already. A romance writer has trouble enough communicating with a crime novelist -- now add different play styles to the picture and it's no wonder the arguments go on.
But it's all there. If you can find the engagement, and the game that matches what you are trying to learn to write.
I have been writing all my life. I worked as a professional copy writer for a spell and now I spend most of my time alternating between writing historical fiction and mushing. Roleplaying is definitely writing -- not necessarily something that can be published, but you learn ALL THE THINGS about pacing, keeping people interesting, setting scenes and moods, and moving a plot.
I can obviously only speak for myself but the one thing that tends to convince me to leave games isn't that the grass is greener somewhere else but that somewhere else might offer me an opportunity to actually get involved. That, to me, is the problem with most games that have run for a while -- they're impossibly hard to get into as a new player.
I have literally had a story teller on one game tell me not to bother. That the plot was far too complex and detailed to get into after the game had run for over a year. As a newbie I'd never be trusted and included. All but openly told me to not even bother to app.
It's obviously not the -only- reason a game may lose players to a similar game but it sure as heck is part of it. If only the core group of players really have much to do and feel entertained, then yes, everyone else is going to be looking for alternatives and rush over to that new green field.
@Ganymede said in Plot Advice:
I concur with this. Be flexible. There are a million reasons why the team composition would change between episodes, so roll with it.
It's not just possible that the team composition will change, it's highly plausible. Some players will lose interest in the plot, or in the game. Real life happens. Player base is fluid.
Make sure that the plot can be picked up late in the game by new people. Leave openings and bits that new people can contribute. Try to write your story in a way that encourages participants to talk to and include others. The more people are aware on some level that something is going down at the dark castle, the more people are on the potential list of recruits for the heroic army.
Two games on the same theme are not competition. They are two variations on the same theme. The admins will be different, the implementation will be different, the playerbase will be different. Claiming that they are in competition is, to me, similar to claiming that only one person is allowed to write fan fiction for each franchise.
I'm pretty sure that this is a far more vague answer than you were hoping for, but in my experience -- in plots or in fiction writing -- a story takes the time and space a story takes.
What you need to look for is not page count or the number of days it takes to resolve: It's reader/player engagement. As long as your players are happily pushing on and moving forwards, you're doing it right. If they start to slow down, get distracted, grind to a halt -- then you need to push the story onwards, whether by means of a new set of clues, something dramatic opening the next phase, or introducing new people.
It's very much a listen to your audience thing. And in that, not at all an easy thing because some players seem wildly excited and then suddenly lose drive without much warning. Other players start slow but stick with you until the end. A lot of them get distracted by something shiny elsewhere, and some turn up in the middle, asking if it's too late to join.
The ones you want to try the hardest to please are the quietly loyal ones -- who are often not the ones you'd think of first when you think of potential people to include. As it happens, the highly active, widely well known players are typically the ones who get the most offers, and you may easily find that the ones who are most grateful to participate are the ones whose names tend to be on the fringes. The ones with small children, the shy ones, the ones in odd timezones -- people who may be ready to bend over backward to be included in something that's set at a pace they can keep up with.
A large part of your decision about pacing making needs to revolve around that: Your player segment of choice. Some people have every night all week in EST. Some people have two nights a week, some are in Singapore or London, and some are online 24/7 but suffer from so much fatigue that a few poses a day are all they can manage. Which is your tribe?
I tried this out but it decided I'm a creep who stalks mermaids and now it refuses to talk to me. XD
@Auspice The only thing that the Norse saw as a big deal about cross-dressing and homosexuality was being the bottom; that was emasculating and embarrassing. Topping one's slaves or putting on a dress, on the other hand, eh, why not. The story of Thor as Thrym's bride pokes good-natured fun at Thor, but is also in line with the Norse tendency for stories to award cunning and creative thinking -- he got the hammer back, Thrym died, everyone we like wins.
--hobby historian rides back off into the sunset.
@silverfox ... I read that in Madilyn's voice. It took my mind to a strange place.
@Auspice Spot on. Damp weather, dust, cold. I have barely left my house for a month.
@Auspice Can confirm. I mean, I have to wear an air mask in some places because of asthma; dust does murder on me. I'm a hell of a lot more inclined to get a funny one. XD
Too clueless about how this forum works to figure out DMs but yeah, interested.
@Darren Nope. I put up a profile pic because most places require it, but I've often preferred to sketch it myself, and I'd much rather be allowed to use words. When I have had to use somebody's actor photo from the web I've usually done some heavy photoshopping to get it closer to what's going on in my mind's theatre -- in part because if you toss up a photo of Chris Hemworth then people are going to associate that character with Thor no matter how you actually play it.
@Darren The experience you describe is pretty much mine as well. Got into the hobby in the 90s, watched the MMOs kill half the playerbase and MySpace and later on, other social media, kill the other half. Tried MMOs for some years, ended up quitting those horrified with the outrage culture and the alt-right recruiters.
Ended up dragged back in this autumn and have found a small community that's talkative, enjoys RP, and has a laid back chat culture. It's like coming home. If you're bored sometime, feel very free to visit and see if we're the kind of chatty community you're aching for.
@Ghost said in Well, this sums up why I RP:
And why do YOU guys RP?
Because roleplaying helps me practise my writing -- but also because when I roleplay I get to be somebody who isn't stuck to a bed or sofa 24/7, someone who isn't in constant pain. I had to retire in my mid-30s and now I'm approaching 50 and all but invalid. I can't walk, I can't leave the house unassisted, I can't even shower without help.
But my characters can.
@Caggles said in Well, this sums up why I RP:
To further muddy it, is this different for fiction vs non-fiction? Does a paper on covalent bonds lose validity if written by a TERF? How about different disciplines? Social sciences vs physics?
It may. Depends a lot on what the paper is about. If it's a study of iron age weaponry, probably not. Modern gender politics -- probably quite a bit.
I'm going to reiterate my stand from earlier; if a contemporary writer turns out to be a person you profoundly disagree with, you have to ask yourself if you want to give them your money. In cases where they are a shitty person but their novels are not, I can see myself continuing to buy their books; not everyone in the world agrees with me on everything, and that's just how it is.
If the shitty view is expressed in a way that may have very profound effects, though -- such as, hypothetically, modern gender studies and someone who's an express homophobe, TERF, what have you -- then I do think the talk about whether they should be doing this needs to happen, and whether one is willing to support it.
@Kestrel said in Well, this sums up why I RP:
As for Lovecraft, I think evidence of his abominable racism and xenophobia isn't just present in his works; it's the entire foundation his works were built on. I don't avoid his works because I'm making it a conscious point to boycott them; I avoid them because they disgust me. I'm just not interested in reading the sad, pathetic ravings of a depraved and lonely lunatic writing about how scary foreigners are through the thinly veiled metaphor of incomprehensible alien creatures replacing and overtaking humanity or whatever.
And that's another kettle of fish right there, indeed. Just because something is considered a 'classic' doesn't mean you have to enjoy it. I find Lovecraft profoundly boring; he doesn't speak to me at all. Many so-called greats of the past don't. And that's fine.
On a note to fiction and Lovecraft in general: The first science fiction novels, in any recognisable meanings of the term, hail all the way back to the 1600s, Ludvig Holberg's hollow world story among them. We may credit Lovecraft, perhaps, for helping -- along with many others -- to introduce speculative fiction to the mainstream.
@mietze said in Well, this sums up why I RP:
Like I think almost everyone but the person who generates it eventually grows tired of the PC that is constantly needing to be rescued from kidnappers/rapists/assassins every week. And a lot of people get tired of the being a total unrelenting jerk ic for Reasons You Should Unravel (but forget about reciprocal play)?
Yes on both of these. I love having the trauma conga steamroll my character when it makes sense. Consequences are good. Bad choices leading to bad results is good. Being a dick for the sake of being a dick, or coming up with contrived reason after another to need rescued/talked out of suicide/whatever is not good. It's a fine line, but there's being a person who stands where the manure hits the fan, and there's being a drama queen slash attention whore.
As you point out too, reading the room is good. I generally don't introduce my characters in a dramatic fashion; I don't run up to strangers in real life and start ranting about my shitty life, why would they? Drama happens along the way -- and it should indeed be distributed, I prefer to run plots where everyone takes turns being the victim. Currently running a plot based on my character's complex background -- and in the next I will be focusing hard on someone else's because hello, my character is not the only person in the world who's got problems.