Posts made by Miss Demeanor

@surreality said in The Apology Thread:

@Miss-Demeanor said in The Apology Thread:

@Misadventure I'm not a millennial pansy that needs a 'safe space' from 'scary words', so no.

Yeah, sorry... I have to agree with @Misadventure on this one, the dismissiveness here is a bit much.

PTSD is a real thing, and if people could control what sets it off, I'm pretty sure 'those millennial pansies' be much happier about it than the people who are in proximity when it's set off and feel the need to look down on them for having a delayed emotional reaction to trauma.

Agree all you want. I will totally answer dismissively when asked if I was 'triggered' by a mean person on the internet. If I couldn't handle someone being a jackass on a game, I would have lost my mind decades ago. And considering I've been gaming RL and online since my early teens... I would say I'm doing okay. Angry? Absolutely. Triggered? ....AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

@Arkandel As long as you're saying "I'm sorry I..." and not, "I'm sorry you..." I would say its all good. But maybe let some time pass first? Sometimes 'never contact me again' can change after a few days.

None of the above. Its that he didn't really believe that 'IC was IC' and that OOC communication was a bad thing. He would express frustrations to me about the player of the character his was ICly pursuing wouldn't 'communicate' with him OOCly about how their IC relationship was going... while at the same time telling me that he 'doesn't talk OOCly about the direction his character is taking and leaves it all to IC'. Clearly he didn't, or he wouldn't have been trying so hard to communicate with someone else OOCly about their IC relationship. His saying 'I keep the IC in IC' is just his way of stringing people along until he's done with them, then getting all huffy and affronted when they express anger and frustration with him.

In short, he acted like Spider. He manipulated and played people, then cast them aside when he was done, and worse, treated them like they were the mean ones for getting upset about it. His apologies were never apologies, they were 'I'm sorry you took things so badly'. Because apparently treating people in a way that he himself doesn't like, is not his fault. Its theirs, for being too sensitive, or taking the game too seriously, or having other unspoken issues that made them feel that way.

@Misadventure I'm not a millennial pansy that needs a 'safe space' from 'scary words', so no.

@Auspice Oh sure, you can run one-offs... but as was mentioned before.. I'm looking to create a -story- with my character. An ongoing, interactive narrative. Doing nothing but baRP and one-off's make for a very disjointed and disappointing narrative. Its like in movies when they don't do the 'multiple stories all tying together at one crucial place/time/etc.' thing well. You just feel like you're being jolted out of the immersion, for no good reason and to no real effect, then dropped right back into where you left off.

@Arkandel I agree with you. But since that continues to happen, why should I want to make a Hunter anywhere since the policy is likely just ripped wholecloth from the place that came before it that I didn't like? I'm not trying to change the policy, I'm just relating why I avoid Hunter these days.

@Auspice Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees. So much this! Drove me batty, to the point I finally gave up on playing a Hunter because I am sick unto death of nothing but social/bar/hangout scenes.

Personal opinion incoming! Grain of salt recommended!

I feel like Hunter gets shafted in games. They aren't allowed to do their jobs 'because supers'. Yes, I understand that some Hunter players are douches and will chase after any super they find out about. But that's what staff intervention is for. And yes, some supers are douches that will hunt the Hunters because 'omg a Hunter!'. Again, staff intervention is made for this. Every Hunter sphere I've set foot in in the last... 5-6 years? They can't Hunt in the city they live in. They aren't allowed to touch PC's for ANY reason, even though the supers aren't likewise restricted... they're house-ruled and red-taped into a box of only being able to really baRP and socialize. Because anything else has to take place so far off-grid that the character will be noticeably gone for at least 12 hours... or you will suffer the wrath of the butthurt.

Again, totally personal opinion. YMMV.

@Auspice Yeah, following the 'I apologize' was three paragraphs of 'gee, I didn't realize... only I did and purposely shut off empathy for them, and I acknowledge that they saw things differently than me'... in other words, everything after the 'I apologize' was worded in a way that completely neutralized any actual apology. He continued to imply that it was someone else's fault for taking what he was doing the wrong way, rather than any wrong-doing on his own part.

And yes, I have. You know what I did? Found them a few months later and said 'I'm sorry that I ditched you back then. It was a dick move.' I didn't spend three paragraphs talking about how I didn't realize what I was doing... only I really did and took deliberate steps to not care about the hurt I was causing and now I regret doing it because they took it badly.

Here, since we're quoting him...

I realize due to OOC issues, angry pages, etc, that it wasn't JUST a game for you. (Implication that being upset with him means the other person was taking it unreasonably far.)

going through whatever kinds of shit that led you to get triggered. (There's no ownership there. He takes no responsibility for his own actions.)

For whatever reason the hurt existed, (Same as above. No ownership, just some ephemeral 'whatever reason'.)

but it doesn't matter how justified the hurt on your end was (Do I even really need to explain this? Its completely downplaying the other person's feelings in favor of his... redemption? Growth? Regret?)

I regret that my character choosing X or Y set another living human being into that kind of headspace (He is responsible for his character. He made those choices, not his character. He's shifting blame from himself as a player to his character, like it was operating independently of him.)

I went "fuck their moody shit" and turned off the empathy (Meaning, he had full understanding, where a paragraph ago, he claimed to not understand 'back then' what was happening. Can't keep your story straight? Sounds like someone is lying.)

it might be one of the most soul-rewarding experiences I'm taking away from it. (Apologies shouldn't be about him and how he feels, but rather about making the other person feel better for his previous treatment. Which again, suggests less sincerity and more just wanting to make himself feel better.)

Bolded the parts that particularly stuck out in those statements. Everything put together shows the sort of lackluster, couched non-apology that is made to clear one's own conscience or garner sympathy/kudos from others rather than to actually make things better between him and the people he wronged.

tldr; If the apology is more about someone else taking things badly and how much better you feel about it all? Not a real apology.

@Auspice said in The Apology Thread:

There must be a post I can't see.

Because I don't see 'I'm sorry you' anywhere in his posts.

I see ones about how he's apologizing to people for how he handled things.

Can someone find the post where he says 'I'm sorry you' that Sunny and Miss-Demeanor are referencing, please? Because I can't.

Go ahead and find me the apology in his second 'apology' post. I see alot of 'I recognize' and 'I acknowledge' but no 'I'm sorry I did these things'.

@Auspice I'm not trying to address his every interaction ever. I'm trying to address the ones where there was no OOC communication. Its that whole thing of 'just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it didn't happen at all'. You may not have had any problems. But clearly other people did. I know I did. Any time I tried to talk to him OOCly about the direction our characters were taking he would respond only with 'I don't plan things out' and 'I keep it all IC'. He knew what he was going to have his character do, but he knowingly left me in the dark, then acted surprised that I was upset when he pulled a 180 and I was left holding the bag. Then got mad at me for daring to be mad at him for not communicating with me. Oh... and all the while bitching to me about how his decision was coming back to bite him in the ass as the person he was chasing after wasn't communicating with him, and it was frustrating him.

So I'm glad that you didn't have any issues with him. Not everyone was that lucky in their dealings with him. And that post of his? Not an apology. @Sunny hit the nail on the head. There's no 'I'm sorry I...' in there, just 'I'm sorry they...'.

@Misadventure Actually, what he would do is simply refuse to OOCly discuss anything ICly, including the path of IC relationships with other people. And then turn around and do things ICly that he knew would be hurtful and harmful to others, effectively blindsiding not just characters, but players. If you've ever played out an IC relationship, you should know that OOC communication is KEY. Yet he would patently refuse to communicate OOCly, then would 'shut down empathy' for them when they expressed hurt or anger towards the decisions that he made for his character. He was steering his character, there wasn't some mystical force driving his character to do things that he had at least an inkling would hurt someone's feelings OOC. And rather than sit down and say something OOC about the direction he wanted to take his character, he would hide behind 'IC is IC'.

So... yeah, maybe he should... I dunno, actually apologize for blatantly treating the people behind the characters as shittily as his character treated theirs.

And yet, he never actually apologizes to anyone for those actions.

@Misadventure How about... 'I'm sorry that I did something that hurt you. I may not have intended to hurt you, but I did and that is my fault.' Pretty simple, sweet, and to the point.

@Auspice What you're suggesting still isn't an apology, just an admittance of having shrugged off another person. When you apologize to someone, it doesn't take three paragraphs of rambling diatribe that never once says 'I'm sorry I did this'. He starts it off by saying 'I apologize to some people'... and then goes on to talk about how its really just about how he didn't realize that other people were taking it badly, while also stating that he recognized it was happening and consciously turned off his empathy towards them. There's no apology there.

@Arkandel I'm mostly interested in the guy proclaiming his retirement from MU*ing (again), starting a thread about apologizing to people... then failing to actually apologize to anyone. This is the most Spidery thing I've seen happen since she huffed off from TR.

@Arkandel I only have a Werewolf, but I've signed up (and showed up) to every event tagged Werewolf thus far. Most of the events I see are tagged Vampire, so I'm obviously not going to show up for those.

@Ghost said in The Apology Thread:

I apologize to a few players back in the day, whom I won't name specifically for their anonymity. I believed it's just a game and what is IC stays IC, so I muscled through a few things, putting IC first. After all was said and done, I realize due to OOC issues, angry pages, etc, that it wasn't JUST a game for you. Regardless of my feelings that IC should always stay IC, looking back, I can't help but feel like you were another soul on the other end of the keyboard, going through whatever kinds of shit that led you to get triggered.

I was playing a game and doubled down on what I thought was proper for the game and for my character, and I can't help but wonder sometimes just how real the hurt was on your side. For whatever reason the hurt existed, or why, I hope things are going better on your end, wherever you are.

In the end for me, it was just a game, but it doesn't matter how justified the hurt on your end was. I know better now than I did years ago how personally invested some people get, and I regret that my character choosing X or Y set another living human being into that kind of headspace.

I know at least four or five times, I went "fuck their moody shit" and turned off the empathy because I wasn't willing to dig through OOC weeds with strangers.

Earlier this year, I reunited and made amends with someone I hurt from 5W, and in retiring from the hobby, it might be one of the most soul-rewarding experiences I'm taking away from it.

I'm sorry, but this one feels a bit disingenuous to me. You're not apologizing for your actions, you're apologizing for their reactions. I've gotten kinda good at spotting this. Years of exposure to Spider tends to make one very good at spotting the 'I'm sorry you took this the wrong way' type of non-apology.

@ThatGuyThere

@Arkandel said in Social Conflict via Stats:

For starters I completely differentiate between social supernatural powers and what we're discussing here generally. Before we can have something like Majesty bypass conflict through stats we need to first design how that conflict normally goes.

In other words Majesty jumps ahead from Step #1 straight to Step #6, but we first need to know what each of those steps is normally and how it's crossed.

For another I disagree with @Groth in the way that I hate character control being taken from me; I mean I do, in the same way that I'd be mildly irritated by someone beating up my character if I had a different story/idea of his story progress, but that's fine - it comes with playing with other people. The unpredictability isn't a drawback as long as it's treated correctly by all participants starting with me; if my immediate mindset initially isn't that I just lost something then it's all good.

No, what I mind is if scenes can't flow properly because we keep having to interrupt their momentum to do dice stuff, chat OOC to debate mechanics and call staff in when we don't know/can't agree how something works. That shit kills my interest in a scene. A social system needs to be very, very fast-paced.

For example:

My character, Joe, is trying to fast-talk @Ganymede's Jane into letting him get through to the private back room.

I pose the social attempt, then do "+social/fasttalk Jane".

Ganymede sees the attempt ("Joe is trying to fasttalk you. Type '+social/defend Joe' followed by a modifier from -5 to +5. 0 is the default if you don't assign one").

Since Joe did something mildly clever by bringing up Jane's combat prowess as a backhanded compliment ("come on, if I misbehave you can kick my ass easily, we both know that") the attempt is given a defensive -2 modifier making it easier to succeed.

Ganymede runs "+social/defend Joe -2", sees the result (but I don't, I don't know the outcome) then poses accordingly.

The roleplay continues. There's near zero delay.

I am completely fine with this system.

Bolded and italicized relevant comment. Apologies to the tag for you Ark, just didn't want to get called on 'editing'.

@Insomnia said in RL Anger:

Spiders look like leaves now? Fuck you, Mother Nature!

What?! FUCKING WHAT?!?! Oh fuck this... this is why I'm a hermit...

@ThatGuyThere The difference between the two is that you see the results of the physical combat. You know that you take that damage and are held accountable to it. Take that same example, you're in combat... but the attacker doesn't see the results of the attack roll, only you do. So you could take the 4 agg like you're supposed to... or you could say that it missed completely and pose not getting hit at all. If only one side ever gets to see the results of the roll, there's no way to hold them accountable to that roll. Even if you call in staff, only you got to see the results of the roll, so there's no way to prove that you're cheating. The honor system only works when everyone is playing by the rules. This has proven to not be the across across decades of MUSHing.

@Arkandel said in Social Conflict via Stats:

@Miss-Demeanor said in Social Conflict via Stats:

@Arkandel That's the honor system, and let me know when you've had a game of more than 10 people where the honor system actually worked. There's no checks and balances in your example, no way to ensure that people are actually posing according to the results of the roll.

If you're worried about that I guess the outcome being shown isn't going to break the system, it's just a little extra.

But if we can't trust our fellow players then none of this really works. I don't want my IC social attempts to succeed if the other person hates it but is forced to go along, what's the point of that? How much fun is the scene going to be?

Bolded for emphasis. Your response suggests that any course of action where someone 'hates' the outcome should be avoided. But everyone can't win all the time. Sometimes, you just have to accept that something you don't like is happening to your character. But the system you outlined sets up the perfect opportunity for people to just pose whatever the Hell they feel like posing, free to ignore what the dice say because they're the only ones that will see the result. You've just enabled people to cheat. And as fun and fluffy as it is to talk about 'trusting other players', you have to be willing to take into account the lowest common denominator. In your system, there's no way to even catch someone cheating let alone call them out on it. You have no proof. No way to go 'Heeeeeeeey, I succeeded that roll, why are you posing like your character was completely unaffected?'. You're enabling the people that are untrustworthy while saying that we should just trust people to do the right thing.