Posts made by Thenomain

@Insomnia said in Dead Celebrity Thread:

Normally my Tuesday stream is Fantasy (unless a new game comes out, because new games come out on Tuesdays typically) but I think I'm going to play "Everyone's Gone to the Rapture." Seems a fitting way to end 2016.

Then play Bioshock Infinite, Burial At Sea, where everyone has gone to Rapture.

@Coin said in RL Anger:

@Faceless said in RL Anger:

@Coin, good point. Stubborn as something that is very stubborn. A donkey or something, probably.

Stubborn as @Coin and @Faceless' hypothetical lovechild.

A coin with no "heads".

@faraday said in Brilliant Breakthroughs and Impossible Projects:

It's a tool not a religion

That's totally opposite the usual mood about code bases; you really are tired of this hobby, aren't you?

@Seamus

Okay? I'm certainly confused about the intention or implication of your statements.

@faraday

I like the quasi throw/catch, but what order would these fire in? In my code methodology, I often use things like: if (x = target->thing) which I realize is horrible code but you get the idea. This may be an absolute Mush-ism, but sometimes you do state changes while checking validity.

The answer could be "don't do that", which IMO is fine.

@Seamus said in Shadowhunters MUSH:

@Thenomain As I have come to learn, you probably were the only one to have that interpretation that statement, thus you have the problem... At least that's the impression I'm given by the game.

What problem?

I cannot imagine what kind of technological and economic repression would be like in a world defending itself against an outside invasion for one thousand years. Sheesh.

@Griatch said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas! My gift from Soapbox is you, @faraday and others having a long and interesting discussion. We may not be changing minds, but we are exploring them, which is fantastic!

Merry days to all.

Christmas Eve, not much time, still requesting: Evennia have its own help files for people who do not know how to or understand how to pour through code, let alone understand what directory structures mean what. I still facerub when I have to find which library a function or object or template structure lives in, because it is not fun at all for anyone ever period, even people who've been coding Mush softcode for years/decades and "where is it?" is a painfully frequent question.

I can't ask that Evennia devs do anything for the common Python code, but for the Evennia structures they can sure as heck do something as simple as a searchable wiki. Have you seen how well-organized the Oracle SQL and PL/SQL docs and even some of the other interface docs are? PyDoc, maybe?

Thinking out loud, there.

@Tinuviel said in RL Anger:

@Thenomain When you say "racial protection" do you mean "species protection" or an actual tribal-like mentality? No judgement, I'm just curious as to your phrasing.

I meant species protection, but when you start building cultures it could also be applied to cultural protection, probably.

@faraday said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:

tools and conventions help too

I may already be agreeing with you on this.

Today I stopped by my mother's to pick up mail-order I had shipped to her considerably less ghetto home. I brought Arby's (because we like them) and I helped her make her absolutely fantastic Million Dollar Fudge, which is so rich I need about a half glass of milk per square inch. It was unexpected, and I haven't felt more "home" in a decade.

@faraday said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:

@Thenomain said in What is out there? Hard and soft codebases of choice.:

@faraday and @Thenomain on opposite sides of an issue. It should be a podcast!

Maybe so since it seems to happen every other Tuesday

Call me.

how to find the help files so you can translate def switch_set(self, target, files, rhs, isadmin): into English. I mean, sure, you have to do the same with iter(), but 'help iter' and boom, done.

Does Evennia have a 'help switch_set'? If not, it desperately needs one!

Uhh... perhaps I'm missing something critical about your point, but with a mainstream (I won't say "real" because say what you will about MUSHCode but it is a "real" language) programming language

there are literally gazillions of "how to do a switch in Ruby" type tutorials.

Step 1: Recognize a built-in function from a defined function.

• In Mushlikes: Is it a u()? No: Is it in 'help'? No: @function/list.
• In Mainstream Languages: ...?

I assume the answer to 1b is to hope the people who put the framework together have made it easy to find out.

Also, before I get complaints about it, I know that what I quoted is the definition of 'switch_set', but what about 'msg()'? How does a beginning coder know where to find the help file on this function, when beset upon by it while frankencoding?

As you say, though:

The critical piece I think is needed for transitioning from MUSHCode to a different framework is a bridge document.

Considering the tone of my comments, I wholeheartedly agree.

The lack of this document is probably why WTFE's "professionals only" statement came in; sure a pro will know where to find what 'msg()' is, starting with context which is so bloody critical in OOP, but even though Mushers bathe in list-based and OOP-based coding it's going to take some Beginner's Guide education to smooth the transition.

But, I mean, you know that.

@faraday and @Thenomain on opposite sides of an issue. It should be a podcast!

Anyhow, I wholeheartedly agree with my compatriot, but I will say that to learn any "real" programming language involves learning some insanely important concepts. Even if you frankencode (definition: taking bits of code from other sources and mashing them together hoping they will work), you have to understand what goes where, a few brief OOP concepts, how stuff gets called, and how to find the help files so you can translate def switch_set(self, target, files, rhs, isadmin): into English. I mean, sure, you have to do the same with iter(), but 'help iter' and boom, done.

Does Evennia have a 'help switch_set'? If not, it desperately needs one!

Incidentally, the code comes from https://github.com/evennia/evennia/wiki/Soft-Code, which I have some ethical problems with, mainly how it compares some pretty horribly written softcode in a horribly unformatted manner to elegant and also formatted code. (Yes, I know it's @Volund's code, and I know he is a damn good psychocoder.)

Let us compare the "scare code":

&INC`SET u(ifo)=@include u(ifo)/INC`TARGET;@include  \
u(ifo)/INC`FILENAME;@assert strlen(%q<filename>)=@nspemit \
%#=announce(INFO)%BERROR: Info file name empty.;@switch/inline \
gt(strlen(setr(attr,u(u(ifo)/FUN`FINDFILE,%q<target>,%q<filename>))),0)=1,{@assert \
or(isadmin(%#),strmatch(%q<target>,%#))=@nspemit \
%#=announce(INFO)%BERROR: You may not change another's Info \
files.;@switch/inline or(getstat(%q<target>/%q<attr>`FLAGS,Hidden),\
getstat(%q<target>/%q<attr> `FLAGS,Approved))=1,{@assert \
isadmin(%#)=@nspemit %#=announce(INFO)%BERROR: That Info File may not \
be changed by you.}}, ...

To something a little more reasonable:

&INC`SET u(ifo)=
	@include u(ifo)/INC`TARGET;
	@include u(ifo)/INC`FILENAME; 
	@assert strlen( %q<filename> )=@nspemit %#=u( .error, Info file name empty. ); 
	@eval setq( attr, u( u( ifo )/FUN`FINDFILE, %q<target>, %q<filename> )); 
	@if t( strlen( %q<attr> ), 0 )=
		1, { 
			@assert or( isadmin( %# ), strmatch( %q<target>, %# ))=
				@nspemit %#=u( .error, You may not change another's Info files. ); 
			@switch/inline or( 
				getstat( %q<target>/%q<attr>`FLAGS, Hidden ), 
				getstat( %q<target>/%q<attr> `FLAGS, Approved )
			)=
				1, { 
					@assert isadmin(%#)=
						@nspemit %#=u( .error, That Info File may not be changed by you. ) 
				}
		}, 
		...

There is no reason to softcode unformatted. @Glitch coded an amazing tool called Muxify in order to allow as many people as possible to code formatted. This is so easy to do.

edit:

Incidentally, here's how I would have done it:

&INC`SET u(ifo)=
	@include u(ifo)/INC`TARGET;
	@include u(ifo)/INC`FILENAME; 
	@assert strlen( %q<filename> )=@nspemit %#=u( .error, Info file name empty. ); 
	@eval setq( attr, u( u( ifo )/FUN`FINDFILE, %q<target>, %q<filename> )); 
	@assert cand( strlen( %q<attr> ), cor( isadmin( %# ), strmatch( %q<target>, %# )))=
		@nspemit %#=u( .error, You may not change another's Info files. );
	@assert cor( 
			not( u( .orflags, %q<target>, %q<attr>, Hidden Approved )), 
			isadmin( %# )
		)=
		@nspemit %#=u( .error, That Info File may not be changed by you. ); 
	...

Legibility isn't impossible in softcode. In fact, it's not even that hard to do. You just have to start with: I need to be able to tell my future self what the hell I'm doing, and the experience of yelling at your past self for not knowing the things that you know today.

@Ganymede said in RL Anger:

@Thenomain said in RL Anger:

Not enough 'nog; I am clearly still an optimist.

If you can drink 'nog, you can swallow. So, on your knees, boy.

Not until I have a clear notion of your RL gender politics.

Also, dinner.

@Catsmeow said in RL Anger:

You mean we aren't supposed to run to other people and have them fight 'our battles' [...]?

Humans are social creatures that create communities as long as that community protects "us". Humanity is wired to fear "them" for basic racial protection. Armed with this, religion, racism, nationalism, and as an extension jingoism make all the sense in the world. A community is much stronger than an individual, and much more likely to enforce their ("our") view.

So yes, we are absolutely supposed to run to other people and have them fight "our" battles, because we are stronger together against those who are wrong which is, of course, everyone else.

...

I am, of course, being a little sardonic. Though I see the power of communities for protection, moral guidance, and so forth, I also think that I'm sick of people not being able to be reasonable directly to one another, and after having the PC movement hammered into our brains and now that we are abandoning PC with the glee of stripping off our crazy-jackets and running naked into the world...

...er, I forgot where I was going with that. Oh, if we're going to abandon socially enforced niceties, then we are in the perfect place to engage in more personal interactions, a more one-on-one personal society.

Too much 'nog man. You know that's not how MU* communicate.

Not enough 'nog; I am clearly still an optimist.

Just like everything else in our post-Political Correctness era, if you don't like someone calling you something, say something. "Yeah, could you not call me 'hon'?" There are political-social reasons not to do this, and always don't be a dick about pushing agenda in someone else's face, but I think that America is pretty well poised to start talking more openly to one another. Even if we only got there because of the negativity of the election.

Still, if someone has more respect than selfishness, they'll be okay with it,

"Anita Riceverse". I giggled.

Steam to me: "All but two of the games on your wishlist are on sale."
Me to Steam: "... Goddammit."