@faraday said in Development Thread: Sacred Seed:

@thenomain Nobody said it was easy.

It was implied, and certainly inferred, and I even started the post you're replying to acknowledging your statement.

Nobody (at least not here) said not to take WHO apart

Not here, no.

I really don't know how "F--- 'em" is meant to be constructive toward well-meaning people

I really don't know my preface was confusing, but if you're going to not take me at my word and tell me how I'm wrong with nothing constructive of your own then godspeed and good night.

Question:

I want to play someone who owns a business that is known for taking over and reselling other businesses for a profit.

A different character owns a business.

I want to take it apart.

This is very clearly a PvP action that relies on mental and/or social skills.

Should it be allowed?

What I told Cobalt on Discord. I want to say up front that I know that all you coder types are good people. I like you all, even when I'm yelling at some of you for not getting it. I'm using this thread to get back into coding, and sometimes you need a wall to jump off which means finding a good wall.

Hello, good walls!

When we get good at something, we often lose sight at what we were like at first, ten, twenty years ago. A lot of us learned to code because we were self-motivated to make awesome things.

We should all be motivated to help each other make awesome things, which is why I know you're all good people. That it might've come across as "stare until your forehead bleeds" instead of "you got this" is because we're humans.

We all got this.

Anyhow, here's what I said, in my usual Thenomain way:

--

Dear @Cobaltasaurus :

Learning is hard.

Learning on your own is harder.

Learning on your own when all you want to do is "make X" is hard and frustrating.

Learning on your own when experts tell you about its ease is frustrating as hell.

Fuck 'em.

How many times I've been told not to code "WHO" because it's already been coded has kept me from even trying Evennia or Ares.

FUCK 'EM.

When I get the brain to get Evennia running again on my computer, I'm going to find WHO and I'm going to take it apart until I can make it my bitch.

--

(I typed out but did not include: And then I'm going to shove it down the throat of anyone who told me not to code WHO because it was already done. Good lord people, some of you are here in this thread saying learning how to create the wheel by taking a wheel apart is a good thing! Code WHO. Code the everloving shit out of WHO. Make awesome things out of already awesome things.)

@griatch said in Make Evennia 'more accessibility' - ideas?:

I'd be interested in what kind of features you would be looking for in order to have an easier time getting into Evennia

Getting the system started and into the part of the system where coding happens—which can happen in multiple places—is a distinct challenge for me. While people have told me what Django is a few times, I don't remember why I need it so talking about it can be distracting. While I use git/Github to store my code, I don't use it to code.

While TinyMUX can be a pain to get compiled right, once it's compiled there's a single button to press to start the game, log in, and get confused by the next layer of "build the game".

Ares comes close to this.

Evennia's documentation is good, but...here, look, here's a part from the first documentation page:

• The Getting Started page helps installing and starting Evennia for the first time.
• The Admin Docs covers running and maintaining an Evennia server.
• The Builder Docs helps for starting to build a game world using Evennia.
• The Developer Central describes how Evennia works and is used by coders.
• The Tutorials & Examples contains help pages on a step-by-step or tutorial format.
• The API documentation is created from the latest source code.

Okay, so I assume I look at "The Getting Started page". Yup, there's how to install and get running. I'm on a Mac so sure, let me look there:

cd mygame
evennia migrate  # (this creates the database)
evennia start    # (make sure to create a superuser when asked. Email is optional.)

Except that I know there's another step that I'm missing because it runs in ... virtualeng? veng? vengence? Something.

Okay, let's try the Administration page. Ahha! "Starting, stopping, reloading and resetting Evennia." Here it is!

A common reason for not seeing the evennia command is to forget to (re)start the virtual environment (in a folder called pyenv if you followed the Getting Started page). You need to do this every time you start a new terminal/console and should see (pyenv) at the beginning of the line. The virtualenv allows to install all Python dependencies without needing root or disturbing the global packages in the repo (which are often older).

source pyenv/bin/activate (Linux/Unix)
pyenv/Scripts/activate` (Windows)

... What?

Wait, do you want me to run this every time I log into the shell? I know almost nothing about pyenv. This is a step up from a true newbie who will know literally nothing about it.

My solution? I like how MediaWiki does it. There's a full "we know you're a newbie let's try to help" page and then there are a number of "this is what's going on behind the scenes with this particular aspect" pages. This is how I drill down to the various setup security levels and new namespaces. It was absolutely confusing at first but because I could go up a level I never felt entirely without hope.

Incidentally, "Startup scripts for remote servers" points to the same file which does not have any startup scripts for remote servers.

--

In updating:

When you're wanting to apply updates, simply cd to your cloned evennia root directory and type:

Do I need to be in pyenv?

When the database schema changes, you just go to your game folder and run:

Do I need to be in pyenv?

(Extra credit: Does git pull tell me when my database schema changes?)

--

Alright, let's look at the beginning developer docs!

Explore Evennia interactively

When new to Evennia it can be hard to find things or figure out what is available. Evennia offers a special interactive python shell that allows you to experiment and try out things. It's recommended to use ipython for this since the vanilla python prompt is very limited. Here are some simple commands to get started:

# [open a new console/terminal]
# [activate your evennia virtualenv in this console/terminal]
pip install ipython # [only needed the first time]
cd mygame
evennia shell

Wait, do I need to enter pyenv here?

--

I think this is enough for now. I know I sound like I'm complaining. I am not. I am horrible at pointing things out gently, so I do it the way I do it while I get better at doing it.

If I had a better grasp of how people learn I could add examples of why the documentation is confusing, but for now I'll explain why it's confusing for me.

I sincerely hope that helps.

@ganymede said in Social Stats in the World of Darkness:

The situation is only binary if you cannot see the other possibilities. This is another cognition problem.

Most systems encourages binary thought. Look at CoD back-peddling in their combat system: If your goal is to kill, you must spend Willpower. If your goal changes, you must spend Willpower.

D&D (et al.) get away with this by making all the things you roll for binary. And yes I know there's a degree of fluidity at the far ends but most of your rolls are going to be "hit/whiff". This level of simplicity goes into its favor because it's designed for it.

@ganymede

Getting away from a system with a binary succeed/fail system would also help.

@pyrephox said in Social Stats in the World of Darkness:

I don't think of the purpose of social maneuvering in games to be one player trying to out-think the other

To ground what robolawyer said, I don't think of the purpose of a car to be to run over people you disagree with, but like any tool it can be used far outside the scope of its designed purpose. We give tools their purpose. This is why we have windows with warnings that read, "Children cannot fly."

@tragedyjones said in Social Stats in the World of Darkness:

@ganymede said in Social Stats in the World of Darkness:

And you're right. We're joking or lying
But let's suppose that to be true. All the more reason to abolish social and mental combat, and simply rely on our wits and writing, as players, to convince others to do what we want.

Some of us are neither witty nor skilled writers. I mean obviously not me, but some of us!

@jeshin

I'd rather give the money to the Evennia team to get someone on board to make the system more accessible to learn, even if that person is Tehom. I'm ready to tear Evennia apart but I'm still very nervous at all the layers I don't understand to start getting into the layers that I do.

--

edit: I'm not slamming anyone; consider this clumsy constructive criticism. Learning Evennia is not a matter of learning Python. Eventually it is, but you've got to get to it first. And learn how it works.

If you want to find something that is much, much, MUUUUCH easier to pick up and learn, try Ares (even though it's Ruby) or MUCK (even though it's Fortran).

@ganymede said in Social Stats in the World of Darkness:

But let's suppose that to be true. All the more reason to abolish social and mental combat, and simply rely on our wits and writing, as players, to convince others to do what we want.

Then why not physical combat?

This is not a trick question: If we can rely on playing the character sheets with each other, why allow one player character to be physically antagonistic to another?

@ganymede

This Makes Me Think Of:

There are different types of LARPs. Some of them you rely on the dexterity of the player as the character, in others the combat is done via cards.

Because we MUSHers are essentially writers using a loose system to fill in the rest, then starting with a system where "making an impassioned speech" is rolled and not role-played will be...a challenge. How do you tickle the writer and role-player when you say, "You can do this, but you need to roll your success and write accordingly"?

Your example is why some people want open sheets. "I give the St. Crispin's Day Speech!" / (looks at your sheet, yells out from the crowd) "BO-RING!"

I think there are better ways, but accountability in stats is as old a discussion as the WoD Mu*.

@ganymede said in Social Stats in the World of Darkness:

This is a subject that has roiled back and forth for years. Years, you say? Yes, because I have no less than three different write-ups on how I'd manage the expectations of "social combat" and "mental combat" on a MUSH

One of the things I've been wrestling with about FATE/Fate Core, is that social and mental combat are nearly the same thing. Outsmart, outwit, outmaneuver, outshine.

--

But the problem is that players usually don't separate IC and OOC knowledge.

Let me restate this for everyone:

There is no such thing as Pure IC.

Sorry about yelling, but this is important. The work to separate the two is fun for some, but is work for others. Without making the social interaction more codified, you're asking for consistency where none should be expected.

And those people who do separate the two? They don't really; they just decide what to let cross from OOC to IC. There is no such thing as an IC/OOC divide. All characters live from our players' desires for them.

Most of the current social/mental conflict systems rely on a consistency that lies within the GM, or within the social contract of the table. Well, bad news, "the table" in a Mu* includes people with different gaming goals than you do.

Anyhow, that's all. I wanted to get that out there. The lack of central agreement social systems is the main problem of using tabletop RPGs on a Mu* setting.

@tragedyjones said in Social Stats in the World of Darkness:

Only if you take away the ability of people to use physical stats on other PCs as well.

Except the understanding and expectations of what physical stats do to other characters is very well-detailed.

The understanding and expectations of what social or mental stats do to other characters is not.

Unless you're using literally any incarnation of Fate.

Obviously this means that everyone should be using Fate.

There are some other RPGs where the stakes and rules for social combat are clear. If you want to use social stats with characters as a valid target, use one of them.

--

Mind you, I've been stating this since nWoD came out (2004, jesus): The book already instructs players how to negotiate these skills, they just don't want to.

With almost every game's combat system, there is no response other than to engage the scripted combat system. But with no scripted social system, you have to rely on the target to be reasonable, and Prisoner's Dilemma takes full effect; it only works if both of you are willing to negotiate loss. No matter how many examples are given for how to negotiate, people will tend to...simply not.

So in situations where PCs may be playing adversarial roles to other PCs, either burn the stats with fire, or put them on completely equal footing with the physical stats.

@ganymede said in Social Stats in the World of Darkness:

How interested would you be in a World of Darkness games that eliminated the use of social stats on other PCs entirely?

AKA Almost Every WoD Player? Wouldn't miss it.

I did get rolled-at once by someone I just met to force my character to be in awe of them, so I followed through to be nice and mentally put them on my "would rather avoid" checklist.

It wasn't until later that day that I learned it was Spider.

DID YOU KNOW: Tabletop games are awesome? Well mostly awesome. But some of the most awesome have been turned into computer interfaces.

Humble Store is having a sale on them. A lot of them. A metric fuckton.

Here's the link. Hell even Tabletop Simulator is worth the price of admission if you play even one game for less than the $80 they go for in print.

And if you buy a game, you throw a few pennies to the voiceless Moiren, because it's often good to support one of our own, right?

@goldfish

Another tip:

If you can, set your client to not auto-scroll. I personally can't stand this, but I accept that if I could learn it then it'd give me more time to respond.

What I have problems with is that other people tend to read, process, and type faster than I do, so I have to try a different kind of posing--responding either smaller poses or in more localized chunks.

Part of why I stopped RPing (especially in large groups) is because this pose style does not seem to be entertaining enough to most people to create that beautiful feedback loop that RP strives for. And there are short-pose snobs. And there are people who react to the entire room no matter how many people their character might be talking to. And...ughhhhhh.

Sorry, personal tangent.

Maybe killing the relentless scroll so you can read at your own speed would work for you. It depends on what's causing your troubles.

@goldfish said in Paragraphs, large scenes and visibility:

Any other tips or tricks to help me keep up with what's happening?

Posebreak.

Some posebreaks allow you to create your own header, but if your game doesn't have a posebreak, ask for it.

I have many infamous problems keeping track in large scenes and it's helped tremendously.

Me: Hey, Steam, list all your specials by User Reviews.

Steam: Done.

Me: What's #1?

Steam: It says here "Deep Space Waifu Collection".

Me: ... There is no god.

@auspice said in Real World Peeves, Disgruntlement, and Irks.:

"WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW MOTHERFUCKER"

@packrat

“No good deed goes unpunished.”