Internet Attacks? Why?
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@thenomain Exactly why the one line not quoted is there. I am not at all optimistic.
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@thenomain I'd bet dollars to donuts that's what his lawyer told him to say.
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@lithium all of the stuff I listed in the original post happened within the mushing community, and in fact was sometimes disclosed on snark site ideations. Bragged about even. But just like now, I don’t believe it was cool to most people who read it. But it has happened. I would be shocked if sexual assault hasn’t happened. I know there have been allegations of abusers picking up vulnerable partners via mushing.
I mean it happens and it will wherever there is a stronger sense of intimacy due to chatting or whatever or a pinpoint focus that can’t hapoen in daily life.
But! I am long in the tooth enough to remember this being famous in other groups too—SCA, live action LARPing, radio chats, etc.
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There was a really long thing I was going to write, and maybe still will at some point. It frankly got a little too depressing a fair ways in, so I needed to put it aside for a bit. (I am trying to stick to my resolution of working on my stuff until at least vacation time in late October, and trying to play some somewhere this year, and between that and a friend showing some ugly colors once again... yeah. Not right now on wall of depressing social analysis text. Sorry, or you're welcome; whichever applies.)
A lot of it boils down to the simple truth that people are flawed, and one of our main flaws is being unwilling to accept the idea that we're ever anything but perfect, reasonable, and justified in who we are and what we do at any given time. As a result, the idea of consequences typically feels unfair or the application of them feels unwarranted, even when it's not.
@Misadventure more or less nailed a lot of it else-thread.
<trudges back to the wiki code mines>
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@apos said in Internet Attacks? Why?:
@lithium said in Internet Attacks? Why?:
But... does that really apply to MU*'s? Our anger and such tends to take a lot longer to build up to the point of ostracism. We are a lot more tolerant than most online gamers (see league of legends and dota for extreme examples) probably due to the media in which we use, text is slow, it's patient, it gives us time to think and respond.
Curious as to people's thoughts.
I don't think people are all that different, but MUs need a vastly different level of investment than someone playing LoL or Dota. I mean someone gets into a LoL game, they play with 4 strangers for maybe 20 minutes, they never see them again. For us, someone gets onto a new game, they could be interacting with some of those people for literally years, and even though it's anonymous, anonymity means a hell of a lot less when the reputation attached to a character basically effects how you can play for thousands of hours invested. So we have a lot of mini society pushback, where people though they are anonymous from a RL perspective for one another, care a whole lot about their 'anonymous' personas on here enough to practice a lot better behavior generally.
I know there's a temptation to be like, 'kids these days' about that but I just don't really think that's the case. I think it's just people generally know that even if it's a fake internet name of a character or board handle, they are attached to that, and their investment heavily helps reduce the really egregious examples we see in games with zero investment.
I can get behind this, back when WoW was young, character names meant something, reputation mattered, and the servers while not ideal, were still a /far/ cry better than they are now. You still see this in things like EverQuest on the Timelocked Progression servers, screw up your rep and you're in for a rough ride.
I still think the fact that in general, we spend more time between doing something (writing the response) because the medium isn't instant like voice chat matters too because we have more time to self filter, but maybe that's just me.
@mietze said in Internet Attacks? Why?:
@lithium all of the stuff I listed in the original post happened within the mushing community, and in fact was sometimes disclosed on snark site ideations. Bragged about even. But just like now, I don’t believe it was cool to most people who read it. But it has happened. I would be shocked if sexual assault hasn’t happened. I know there have been allegations of abusers picking up vulnerable partners via mushing.
I mean it happens and it will wherever there is a stronger sense of intimacy due to chatting or whatever or a pinpoint focus that can’t hapoen in daily life.
But! I am long in the tooth enough to remember this being famous in other groups too—SCA, live action LARPing, radio chats, etc.
I know but it seems less a 'thing' amongst this community than some other online communities is all I meant.
I also remember SCA, Live action RP, etc. There has been online predators for as long as there has been an online. I knew a guy back in my BBS days who used to be a massive skeeve but... I dunno... maybe I am just hopeful we as a group are better than the rest of humanity.
I know, wishful thinking.
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Honestly, we are humanity, why would we be better than it?
I do think we are a much nicer online group as a whole (meaning the mushing community, not necessarily a specific board community) than many.
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Ultimately, I think it's important to never forget that your fellow mushers are essentially strangers with similar interests. It's not like this is a philosophical or religious support group. We aren't bound by common interests related to ethics. It's a hobby, and with that hobby comes regular depictions of relationship drama, sex, and violence.
We've had discussions about Why X game is better because it allows sex with characters depicted as minors and whether or not rape scenes should be permitted on game.
So, with this in mind, it's important to remember that these people are strangers. They could be anyone: Ex-cons, sex offenders, people with obsessive/violent histories, undeclared mental and emotional disorders, or the classic bitterness that comes from dissatisfying personal lives. You can never control what these people do or how they react, or to what degree they will try to satisfy whatever sense of vindication they feel is due.
So, unlike twitch streamers, we have the ability to use email, lack of names, lack of pictures, etc. This will make it harder to socially engineer all kinds of threats on a data/personal/family level.
Just never forget that these people are strangers, and when it comes to the dangerous ones, a stranger can become someone more dangerous very quickly over any manner of social sleight.
I've seen prince charming become a stalker in 2 seconds flat.
Please, god, for your own safeties, never forget that these people are strangers.
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Honestly this applies to almost any group with people in it. Ask anyone who has been in leadership on a volunteer org, even with members who are friends and that you’ve known for years, and then you see what happens behind the scenes or to you when you have to say no to a proposal/item/expense/want that they are super invested in.
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You people as a group are nicer than any community theatre I’ve ever been involved in.
Thank you for that.
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My experience is vastly different, but I've worked with great casts and crews.
I've heard horror stories.
Just you wait for Guffman.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede That movie is in my top ten, because... yes. Community theater. Yegods.
Sadly, I'm still with Theno on this one.
We're also definitely less catty, hookup-happy, and back-stabby than any Ren Faire cast I've been involved with (or heard tales of from others). Since the drinking game became a thing many moons ago, however, I think we are on par with 'as often drunk as hell'.
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@surreality said in Internet Attacks? Why?:
They expect it to be non-lethal, and think that because they expect it will be non-lethal, the idea that it may end in physical injury or death isn't a consequence they even let into their heads.
The possibility that someone can be accidentally shot and killed is entirely the idea with some of these, not just the person getting tackled to the floor by a swat officer.
I hate the idea of SWAT'ing, would never do it--also hate the fact that people can weaponize gripes, reports, rumor campaigns ect on these places and it's super easy to do. Reputation really is everything. Gets worse when there's cliques involved.
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@duckula I read a lot about the case (and have on the trend in general since I became aware of it a few years ago). Yes, there are people like that.
The majority of them frighten me more, though: they're kids as young as 13, and they think it's going to be a harmless prank.
People are much, much more likely to do something they consider is likely to be a harmless prank -- even if this is anything but the actual reality of the situation -- than something they expect will involve a risk to life and limb.
That's why the people in denial about how dangerous this is are horrifying.
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@surreality said in Internet Attacks? Why?:
@duckula I read a lot about the case (and have on the trend in general since I became aware of it a few years ago). Yes, there are people like that.
The majority of them frighten me more, though: they're kids as young as 13, and they think it's going to be a harmless prank.
People are much, much more likely to do something they consider is likely to be a harmless prank -- even if this is anything but the actual reality of the situation -- than something they expect will involve a risk to life and limb.
That's why the people in denial about how dangerous this is are horrifying.
I've been saying since I first heard of this trend that it needs to be cracked down on, hard, and those who are doing it need to be charged with something like 2nd degree attempted manslaughter. Definitely a felony charge.
Mind you, I don't think jailing them is necessarily the answer, as people in jail/prison just meet other criminals and learn tricks to being better criminals.
However, there needs to be shown to be severe penalties. If a child commits the act, then on their parents. If an adult, then throw the book at them hard. Make them take awareness classes, do community service, pay steep fines (including restitution to the people they swatted on).
If people figured they were going to have to give money to someone they didn't like, then maybe they wouldn't do it. =P
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@ortallus said in Internet Attacks? Why?:
Mind you, I don't think jailing them is necessarily the answer, as people in jail/prison just meet other criminals and learn tricks to being better criminals.
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It's kinda funny. I would be one of the first to say (and was absolutely thinking it!) that we don't have to worry too much about this sort of thing for (variety of reasons). And then I realized it actually happened to me once. O.O I kicked someone off of a game and they called CPS on me in retaliation. It wasn't fun. Thankfully the social worker acknowledged from the get go that it was a grudge call (that's what they call them) and it all was fine, but still.
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@roz LoL, seriously? You don't get that?
And I'm specifically talking about the younger kids, 13-18, with that. I suppose I should have clarified.
Trust me, I was in jail for 2 weeks (charges were dropped, it was for having a fist fight with my brother) and all people talked about was the crimes they DIDN'T get caught for, and tricks they used to commit crimes. Constantly.
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@ortallus said in Internet Attacks? Why?:
However, there needs to be shown to be severe penalties. If a child commits the act, then on their parents. If an adult, then throw the book at them hard. Make them take awareness classes, do community service, pay steep fines (including restitution to the people they swatted on).
Bolding Mine.
No.
Yes, parenting can do a lot of things. What it cannot do is stop stupid kids from being stupid kids. We all like to talk about the good old days, but when we were young, we did stupid things too.
There is no punishment around that will stop people from making horrible choices, doing horrible things, or otherwise acting in a manner contrary to society.
While yes, I do believe parenting can have a /massive/ impact, punishing the parent is not the solution here. Not even remotely. In fact if it were a thing, then imagine how many angry teenagers would attempt this, just when they got mad at their parents and wanted to 'punish' them.
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@ortallus I will just say it is a very good thing I am not in charge of the world. My preference for what would happen in my dream reality would probably involve a tournament-style flowchart to win 'first up against the wall when the revolution comes'. (And depending on the rules of the tournament, you potentially save yourself a fuckton of bullets.)
I don't think jail is necessarily the option, either, in the real world. I do think mandated extensive empathy training, extensive psychological testing and treatment, mandated community service to be measured in a period of years instead of hours, and crushingly steep fines and restitution are just step one.
I also believe in a life-long registry, similar to the sex offender registry, for these persons, even if they are underage at the time of their offense.
I do fully believe this behavior is something that should have life-long consequences, and that those consequences should not be small.
Further, I think the target and/or others impacted by the behavior should be entitled to sue for personal damages in addition to any required restitution/etc.
I am not a very forgiving person when it comes to fostering the notion that intentionally causing harm to others 'for the lulz' is acceptable in society, even if the offender is in denial that the very real risk of harm exists.
I'm on pretty much the same page here: re: participants in bullying campaigns that encourage a target to commit suicide, and people who troll memorials or missing persons hotlines/notifications with claims of having murdered/raped/kidnapped the person for attention or 'for the lulz'.
I think this behavior has been permitted to exist and flourish for too long for it to be resolved within my lifetime. In (generic) our children's lifetime, if people come down on this with appropriate force now, we might have a hope in hell of seeing it diminish.
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@lithium said in Internet Attacks? Why?:
In fact if it were a thing, then imagine how many angry teenagers would attempt this, just when they > got mad at their parents and wanted to 'punish' them.
Yeah, this actually occurred to me after I'd already posted. All the same, I think parental accountability really needs to be a thing to some extent. Maybe not charging them with the crime, but forcing awareness classes on them.
Usually, there are signs when children are off the hook. Parents are often just too self involved to pay attention to what should, in actuality, be their top priority.
@surreality said in Internet Attacks? Why?:
I don't think jail is necessarily the option, either, in the real world. I do think mandated extensive empathy training, extensive psychological testing and treatment, mandated community service to be measured in a period of years instead of hours, and crushingly steep fines and restitution are just step one.
If I understand Norway's penal system correctly, they don't jail you for a time. They incarcerate you until you're rehabilitated. Whether that takes 2 weeks, or 20 years. They also treat you like a human being who needs help, not an animal to be punished.
Their crime recidivism in Norway is a miniscule 20% (one of the lowest in the world).
@Roz The US's recidivism is 76.6%. That's what I was talking about.
I also believe in a life-long registry, similar to the sex offender registry, for these persons, even if they are underage at the time of their offense.
Closed registries, perhaps. Registries seriously ruin lives.
Further, I think the target and/or others impacted by the behavior should be entitled to sue for personal damages in addition to any required restitution/etc.
I am not a very forgiving person when it comes to fostering the notion that intentionally causing harm to others 'for the lulz' is acceptable in society, even if the offender is in denial that the very real risk of harm exists.Agreed.
I'm on pretty much the same page here: re: participants in bullying campaigns that encourage a target to commit suicide, and people who troll memorials or missing persons hotlines/notifications with claims of having murdered/raped/kidnapped the person for attention or 'for the lulz'.
I think this behavior has been permitted to exist and flourish for too long for it to be resolved within my lifetime. In (generic) our children's lifetime, if people come down on this with appropriate force now, we might have a hope in hell of seeing it diminish.And also this.
