Arx's Elevation Situation

[Auspice]

@Sunny said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

Heaven forbid we just wait and see what staff has planned given we have been repeatedly told they are working on it.

No, no, it is impossible to solve without a wipe! Do this thing!

Everyone just wants to make the same character with a better secret.

(I am joking.)

[Sunny]

@Testament

Some of us are enjoying the current game?

ETA: I have an arc I have been working on for almost an OOC year. I'd like to finish it.

[Testament]

@Sunny And so am I. But I also think that what @Kanye-Qwest is suggesting is something that's needed. Because of previous conversations that @Auspice was alluding to earlier. The concept of 'Oh, I did this fast enough enough, so now I have X thing that was really easy to get, now it'll be harder for you, sorrynotsorry'. That's just one example.

I think once all the systems are finished, tested, and finalized, I think that's the most prudent move. But that's me. Hell, I've always assumed that because this game is in consistent beta, it was never meant to be permenant.

[Sunny]

@Testament

I mean, cool. Your post asked what they were waiting for. I understand you and I don't agree, and that's fine, but I don't think it's out of line to point out that what you are cheering for so excitedly isn't something that everyone is on board with for equally as valid reasons.

[WildBaboons]

@Kanye-Qwest said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

The only way to actually fix this, imo, is to get the systems in and tested and then do a hard reboot

The systems aren't in yet, nor tested. Keep that arc moving, it'll be awhile.

[Testament]

@Sunny And that's....fine? I don't expect everyone to agree with me? I never said anyone else's reasons weren't valid. It's something I want, not something I want tomorrow.

[Pandora]

@AeriaNyx said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

Or, like, make them jump through hoops to buy time to court their vassals, be they PC or NPC houses.

Lol, plz no. This is how you make people hate you.

[AeriaNyx]

@Pandora If there's no OOC communication, sure. But if people can be communicative OOCly about stuff, then there shouldn't be a problem.

[Pandora]

@AeriaNyx said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

@Pandora If there's no OOC communication, sure. But if people can be communicative OOCly about stuff, then there shouldn't be a problem.

If I've taken all the IC steps needed to accomplish a goal and you step in my way OOCly talmbout 'Hey, wouldn't it be cool if I stymied your progress with a series of IC hoops for you to jump through while I attempt to steal your vassals from under you to keep you from progressing?' I'm more likely to report you to staff for harassment than anything else.

[AeriaNyx]

@Pandora That's not exactly what I meant. I meant more the vassal talks to the liege and is like 'Hey, heads up, I'm interested in working on elevating my House' the liege would be all 'Awesome, we can deal with that, ICly, full disclosure we'd be trying to keep your vassals under our umbrella, this is something we can work out, ICly, yeah?' 'Yeah, for sure, we can see how it plays out.' et fin.

[Ominous]

@Tempest said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

@Pyrephox friendo, you seem to pop up in various threads with these “realistic solutions” that literally nobody wants to actually play through on a MU.

Do you do this on purpose, or do you actually believe your commentaries to be something that would work on MUs?

Genuinely curious.

Actually, I would play though the first and the last suggestion, but, as has been established, I am a major outlier from the typical MU*er.

[silverfox]

@thesuntsar

I'm going to plan a rebellion against you now. For reasons.

[Kanye Qwest]

@Sunny the systems are nowhere near ready for my suggestion, jellybean! You've got time.

[Sunny]

@Kanye-Qwest

It's not the concept itself that sends me into fits. IN THEORY I love the idea. What makes me flail is the NOW NOW NOW DO IT NOW bit.

[Meg]

I would think even when the systems are ready, there will probably be some warning and a period of story wrap up. I mean, we can be excited about the idea that there will be a time jump while knowing realistically that they aren't going to one day just shut the game down to player logins to do a time jump.

[Groth]

@wahoo said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

It can't be the job of liege houses to make sure their vassal houses don't get too big. That fucking sucks. It punishes the liege house by making them stomp on RP and they become the bad guys to everyone.

There is also NO incentive NOT to start to jump up the chain, so you're just blindly punishing the liege house by taking away their vassals + income because they DIDN'T jump all over someone's RP fun times. Again, that sucks.

So like, what do we do?

What does a Liege house actually lose when one of their vassals get elevated?

• The vassal will no longer be part of the liege chat channel

• They no longer get the mostly trivial 10% tax

• They can no longer call the banners of that vassal

Normally the largest damage would be the third point but in Arx its practically impossible to tell how much smaller that makes your army since you have no way of seeing how large of an army you can call upon. Also if you have a good relation with the vassal you should be able to secure an alliance that allows you to call their banners even when they're no longer your vassal.

[Wizz]

@AeriaNyx said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

@Pandora That's not exactly what I meant. I meant more the vassal talks to the liege and is like 'Hey, heads up, I'm interested in working on elevating my House' the liege would be all 'Awesome, we can deal with that, ICly, full disclosure we'd be trying to keep your vassals under our umbrella, this is something we can work out, ICly, yeah?' 'Yeah, for sure, we can see how it plays out.' et fin.

That's not how it works though. According to Apos's lore post the former liege doesn't proactively try and snipe all the vassals out from under the newly elevated house -- how would an elevated house even stake their claim to their new position if all their land was taken from them? That doesn't make sense, and would likely just be seen as trying to prevent the elevation period.

The vassals of the elevated house are simply given the option to remain with the house or swear directly to their liege's liege instead if there's some sort of extraordinarily good reason for doing so, which -- given the extreme disadvantages of being geographically separated from a liege -- is the exception, not the rule. The reassessment of fealty is way more a traditional formality than anything that is expected to actually involve a change every single time.

The only reason vassals came up as such a big deal in the case of Pravus is that their elevation to a brand-spanking-new Great House is conditional on their success in taking new land for the King, who will then lease it to them and expect them to populate it. Their vassals can't hold lands in the mainland Lyceum and the Saffron Chain, it's one or the other, so those specific vassals on the mainland are going to be in a very tight spot when it comes reassessment time. Give up everything and start from scratch, or stay with Velenosa and their traditional holdings.

[Pandora]

@Wizz said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

Their vassals can't hold lands in the mainland Lyceum and the Saffron Chain, it's one or the other

Source?

[Roz]

@Pandora said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

@Wizz said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

Their vassals can't hold lands in the mainland Lyceum and the Saffron Chain, it's one or the other

Source?

Staff bbpost. All of Pravus’s vassals are off the mainland, so if any mainland Lyceum houses wanted to become a Pravus vassal, they’d have to get permission from their liege to be released from their oaths of fealty, and then they’d still have to give up their mainland holding and go stake out new land on the Saffron Chain.

[Pandora]

@Wizz said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

Their vassals can't hold lands in the mainland Lyceum and the Saffron Chain, it's one or the other, so those specific vassals on the mainland are going to be in a very tight spot when it comes reassessment time. Give up everything and start from scratch, or stay with Velenosa and their traditional holdings.

Emphasis mine, is this in relation to Pravus' current vassals?

@Roz said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

Staff bbpost. All of Pravus’s vassals are off the mainland, so if any mainland Lyceum houses wanted to become a Pravus vassal, they’d have to get permission from their liege to be released from their oaths of fealty, and then they’d still have to give up their mainland holding and go stake out new land on the Saffron Chain.

Emphasis mine, is this in relation to Houses that are already Pravus vassals, or houses that are under the Velenosa that might want to jump ship to go become Pravus vassals?