A Post-Mortem for Kingsmouth
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@Ganymede said:
@Coin said:
This was a horrible idea, mostly because this sort of system would flounder and be to the detriment of the laissez-faire attitude that Fallcoast was bringing from The Reach. I mean, I get why you wanted to--but it wasn't going to work, which I guess is why you bowed out early.
You're presuming it would fail. That would presume I had not taken, or would not take, into consideration The Reach's background and Fallcoast's direction.
I am, yeah; but I'm also presuming it would fail if you took those things into consideration. I just don't think it would work on that game. Alas, neither of us will ever know if the other's right! I'm okay with that.
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I don't think there's too much of a risk for RfK players going to another game and demanding that things work there how they did on RfK. While there were /some/ WoD noobs, the majority of people were pretty well versed in huge multisphere games, which is why they got hooked on this new, different one.
Virtually all of the players that I talk to regularly have the mindset that either they are going to wait for awhile to play vampire because they know that they can't get that same experience elsewhere (not because all other places are horrible, but because of RfK's unique setup and somewhat against the grain staffing policies), or they're going to have a sandbox for a small group and minimal expectations for affecting the sphere but being open to it.
Of course, you DO have the typical loudmouth entitled asshats (though I would argue most of those folks were/are already playing at other places/are no stranger to the community even before the closure).
I think that the very strict staff PC policies were the major difference that made some kinds of player/staff issues relatively low on the game. With staff not being allowed to play PCs that could take on major roles or politicking, I think that enabled people (once they realized that was true) to relax a bit about assumptions/worries that staff were out to fuck over other people in favor of their own PCs or related PCs. I noticed more degradation of that as the staffing policies seemed to relax, and I do think it's pretty telling that ultimately it seems to have been the prospect of further relaxation of those policies that seems to have prompted the decision to shutter. I know there are members of the community that very very VERY much disagree with me here, but I do think having such very 'draconian' policies contibuted a huge amount to the positive environment. Though I also agree with others that' s probably one of the most difficult to sustain staffing models. That game was very PvP, and when you have staff who are privy to seeing the incoming scene beats and other tracking info, so that they do know what's going on (or what players are reporting about their PCs), I think it's super important that there's a line of separation there. When that started to get murky, discomfort rose. In my experience, and my observation. I also think that the 1 PC policy per person, while "unpopular" in the larger community of WoD places, was pretty important as well, and would also be very hard to replicate beause people are "spoiled" the other way. (And arguably, this makes much more sense on a multisphere game, to allow more than one alt).
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I'm gonna roll my eyes at the 'tee-hee there was so much going on there was no time for TS'. The reason RfK was so popular for ghouls/mortals is that they could make sex-slave fuckbunnies who, despite only rarely RPing outside of their owner's bedroom, could pretend to be "useful" or brag about their "allies/etc" and roll dice at jobs and off-screen stuff (keyword there being off screen). The same attitude goes for many of the vamp players too.
If people want to play a 'useful' ghoul somewhere that doesn't get ignored, it's perfectly doable, you just need to..ding-ding, not spend the majority of your RP time in somebody's bedroom.
ETA : And /of course/ the RfK players will be perfectly polite and adapt seamlessly to games that don't hold their hands constantly and spoonfeed them RP. Yeah right. I foresee lots of problems. I mean look, even the OP had this gem to share "After playing on a game which offered so much, going elsewhere feels like stepping into a wasteland. What is there to do? Sandbox and TS, do the occasional plot…? One could argue that Requiem for Kingsmouth offered too much, leaving its players spoiled and ruined for other games."
This 'rah rah our game is the best ever' shit is so tiresome. Nevermind that Shavalyoth was TSing players on her NPCs. Nevermind that her husband is a power-hungry asshole who she completely caved to and gave him everything he wanted. Didn't Tobias (the Invictus Prince) quit playing, immediately after getting killed via +job by an NPC or something? Didn't your game just close because all these ridiculous coded systems are impossible to sustain?
RfK was not some pillar of everything a MU should be. It had some plus sides, but only if you're into a heavy PvP environment, and mostly only if you're the sort of player who needs activity shoved down your throat, or you want to be able to play a fuckbunny who pretends to be useful because she has Allies-XYZ and Resources5 (like every other character ever)
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@Tempest said:
This 'rah rah our game is the best ever' shit is so tiresome. Nevermind that Shavalyoth was TSing players on her NPCs. Nevermind that her husband is a power-hungry asshole who she completely caved to and gave him everything he wanted. Didn't Tobias (the Invictus Prince) quit playing, immediately after getting killed via +job by an NPC or something? Didn't your game just close because all these ridiculous coded systems are impossible to sustain?
Her husband whose character got a hundred year sentence in torpor, ie, character loss? And whose new alt had oh, zero power what so ever?
Tobias Steele was burned out as Prince and thus got death-by-NPC.
The NPC TS I can't say anything about one way or another, except I sadly didn't get some.
@Tempest said:
RfK was not some pillar of everything a MU should be. It had some plus sides, but only if you're into a heavy PvP environment, and mostly only if you're the sort of player who needs activity shoved down your throat, or you want to be able to play a fuckbunny who pretends to be useful because she has Allies-XYZ. and Resourcess5 (like every other character ever)
Except said ghoul was useful, in ways they are not at all in most games. Resources 5 meant something; it doesn't on most games. Allies XYZ had a purpose on the game, unlike most places. I have Herd 5 on Reno only because I felt it would be cool and thematic, but it serves absolutely no purpose, anymore than my Allies or my Status or my Resources do. All those stats are pointless fluff.
You say activity shoved down your throat; I say something to RP about that wasn't personal RP or throw-away-PRPs, that gave me reasons to play with characters I normally wouldn't. Sandbox games are cliquish games, ultimately nothing you do matter beyond the personal storylines. Which can be cool themselves, but it was nice being able to play a vampire as a political creature. Because frankly? Its not a game made for PRP chasing badguys of the week, or what not.
I am also sad that when I next play vampire, politics (and there always is some politics regardless of intent) and conflict resolution will be a question of overwhelming PK force once more. I hear people say different, but I find that is worse.
Edit: Small fix
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@Tempest said:
Didn't Tobias (the Invictus Prince) quit playing, immediately after getting killed via +job by an NPC or something?
I'm just going to correct this one patent lie in the sea of misinformation and misdirection that is your post. Tobias quit because he didn't want to play Prince anymore, OOCly. Staff /then/ made it into a plot in which other players could pursue the murderers.
I have nothing to say in reply to the rest of your post except to wonder who managed to get you this badly peeved. Because, whoa, mother of distortions.
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I think every knows the faults of RfK heck I argued against a pair of policies quite vocally her, but lets face it 90 percent of MUSHes are sand boxing, ts and the occasional plot. I might have only played RfK for a few months but it was obvious it was working to be different; and like TGG before it it did offer something different.
No game will ever be prefect but I think this hobby need more games trying to be different. There will always be a few multi-sphere by night games and they can be fun; I enjoy them but I know I enjoy mushing as a whole a lot me when I also game log onto a different game and get a different play style.
And yes having systems to back up things besides punching power is a bonus in my mind. -
@lordbelh said:
Except said ghoul was useful, in ways they are not at all in most games. Resources 5 meant something; it doesn't on most games. Allies XYZ had a purpose on the game, unlike most places. I have Herd 5 on Reno only because I felt it would be cool, but it serves absolutely no purpose, anymore than my Allies or my Status or my Resources do. All those stats are pointless fluff.
There are plenty of ways for those stats to come into play. You just have to actually do shit and not just go 'oh yeah, I've done almost nothing but TS with my regnant, but uhhhh yeah I have allies mobsters! and the mob needs to help us!'
If you want to have an impact on things ICly, you should be doing things ICly.
You say activity shoved down your throat; I say something to RP about that wasn't personal RP or throw-away-PRPs, that gave me reasons to play with characters I normally wouldn't. Sandbox games are cliquish games, ultimately nothing you do matter beyond the personal storylines. Which can be cool themselves, but it was nice being able to play a vampire as a political creature. Because frankly? Its not a game made for PRP casing badguys of the week, or what not.
What is stopping you from playing a vampire as a political creature anywhere else? The fact that there's not some system you can throw dice at and go "I WIN!" The fact that you can't claim some title to make puff up your OOC ego? (I dunno about Eldritch, but you can get a title on Reno if you decide to do more than stare at your +sheet trying to figure out what you should roll to win the game.)
I am also sad that when I next play vampire, politics (and there always is some politics regardless of intent) and conflict resolution will be a question of overwhelming PK force once more. I hear people say different, but I find that is worse.
Yes, god forbid you contact the other player OOCly and try to work something out. Communication is a bad, terrible thing. Just jump straight to PK.
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@Tempest
Not sure where you have been playing but I can count on one had the number of times Allies have been a useful stat on any mush.
A stat that requires going through staff to have a result in most cases is useless, unless they have predetermined systems set up.
Here how it goes, you put in a request to have you mobster allies do something. Said request sits there untouched usually til the situation you wanted to have an ally intervene about is resolved through other methods and then you ask the job to be closed.
Doing things ICly should not just mean doing things on-screen. -
@Sundown said:
@Tempest said:
Didn't Tobias (the Invictus Prince) quit playing, immediately after getting killed via +job by an NPC or something?
I'm just going to correct this one patent lie in the sea of misinformation and misdirection that is your post. Tobias quit because he didn't want to play Prince anymore, OOCly. Staff /then/ made it into a plot in which other players could pursue the murderers.
I have nothing to say in reply to the rest of your post except to wonder who managed to get you this badly peeved. Because, whoa, mother of distortions.
You're not going to touch it because everything else I said is true. Note the 'or something', I pretty much admitted to not being certain what happened with Tobias.
I played on RfK, thank you very much. Most of the ghouls/mortals shacked up with their Domitors and did little besides occasionally go WITH them to an Elysium.
Your 'cult of personality' thing you mentioned left out the fact that Shavalyoth tended to take any criticism of her 'baby' personally and not at all very well.
I am peeved because I got a glimpse of how Shav & her husband were on another game(he was powerhungry, tried to act like king of the world, and had a lot of sycophant 'ohraepmepls' followers), and then she turned around and made a game that basically seemed to be built to fulfill her husband's power fantasies. I have no idea what happened with him, but it doesn't change the fact that the game as it was at opening was 100% designed to make him feel important and like the king of the world. If you weren't playing in the first few months of the game, then you of course have no idea what I'm talking about.
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When RfK started, it consisted of Shava playing a dozen NPC's, her husband and about 5 PCs. When RfK closed it had over 100 unique active players and no active NPCs. As the game grew it became much more political then it was while it was still very small and the relative importance of Shava's husband became much smaller.
I'm not sure why @Tempest feels like they have anything to contribute about RfK events that happened after March 2014. There were plenty enough real issues with RfK that you don't need to make them up with your imagination.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.
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@Groth said:
When RfK started, it consisted of Shava playing a dozen NPC's, her husband and about 5 PCs. When RfK closed it had over 100 unique active players and no active NPCs. As the game grew it became much more political then it was while it was still very small and the relative importance of Shava's husband became much smaller.
I'm not sure why @Tempest feels like they have anything to contribute about RfK events that happened after March 2014. There were plenty enough real issues with RfK that you don't need to make them up with your imagination.
I'm not sure 'old problem' and 'imaginary problem' are the same thing.
I also poked at RfK as of 2 months ago, and played for a week or two, and the NPCs definitely still seemed to be active from my glance around, so yeah. Try again.
And please. Around the time I stopped played, the game was up to 20+ active individuals at night, and Shav was hugely active on NPCs, shagging people on them, and her husband's PC maintained his connections to the NPC power structure.
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So the entire game, which ran for over a year and a half, is horribad because of the first few months you experienced there? And even better, inspires such frothing vitriol a year and a half after the fact?
2 months ago, the NPCs were not active because Shava had stepped back from the game. Since then, (I want to say the beginning of August?) I believe Cthugha played one (1) scene with an NPC and a couple of PCs, to wrap out a request that had been in for awhile. So, yeah, that's not accurate.
As has been said, Shava's husband's alt (the one he picked up after the hundred year torpor) had no real power. None. Zero. He might have rubbed several people the wrong way due to his lack of social ability and tendency to go right for the jugular both ICly and OOCly but he had no sway on the game. Shava recused herself from all conversations having to do with Wulf and his behaviour.
I played a ghoul and I had plenty to do. I schemed, I politicked, I smoothed ruffled feathers and was working (first as a ghoul and then as a vampire) to set a few people up for reasons of both gaining power and satisfying a few petty IC grudges. I'm not telling you how much TS I had. The point is that if you wanted to do more, you could. The systems were in place to support and allow that. Or, if you wanted to be a mattress kitten, still provide dice support, or provide no support at all, you could do that as well.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread go 'rah rah our game was the super best!'. No one's saying it was without flaws, I could list several off the top of my head. The point here is that it established ways to play a politically-oriented vampire game that really, really worked. I'm looking forward to seeing what Ganymede does with the concept because this was my first experience with Vampire and I'd like to play the model again. I'd like to play somewhere that scheming and social-fu have actual impact, and repercussions beyond the immediate scene.
But until then, I-- like many others-- will be adapting to the pre-existing culture on other games. As one should.
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@Coin You recommended modifying the RfK territory and downtime systems for Mage 2.0 when it comes out. That's actually something I plan to tinker with in the background if the opportunity comes up.
I'd love to commit to an out and out GMC 2.0 Mage game as soon as it shows up, but no telling when that suckered is going to publish. I can make a few assumptions though.
Edit: Reply did not include the quote and missed half the post.
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@BallisticOrange said:
@Coin That's actually something I plan to tinker with in the background if the opportunity comes up.
Without a quote or working knowledge of who you are in the larger hobby, I don't have any reference as to what you mean! Heh.
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@Caryatid said:
I haven't seen anyone in this thread go 'rah rah our game was the super best!'.
I mean, aside from OP's novel which ended with what basically amounted to "ugh, every other MU is a piece of shit and we have to try and settle now".
Honestly, the game itself and my time there was less annoying than all the 'omg RfK was so perfect, and all these other games are WRONG' that all the recent players keep lobbing around.
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@tempest Are you saying you wouldn't want to see the given systems, or game design goals tried again? Or perhaps that you don't think the folks who staffed should staff again? Or just saying that hey not everything was awesome so don't over look the bad side?
I have a waggish sense of humor.
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@Tempest said:
I also poked at RfK as of 2 months ago, and played for a week or two, and the NPCs definitely still seemed to be active from my glance around, so yeah. Try again.
The only active NPCs in May-June I can think of were Lucinde and Raine (and her not so much). Duality and Emilie were used to resolve a few issues after players spent prestation to bring them into an action, briefly. Many NPCs died as a direct result of the Task-force Valkyrie plot and other plots. Shavalyoth was actively shedding NPCs to scale down her RP involvement and allow others to take the helm. Unless you can think of others?
And please. Around the time I stopped played, the game was up to 20+ active individuals at night, and Shav was hugely active on NPCs, shagging people on them, and her husband's PC maintained his connections to the NPC power structure.
So not recently.
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@tempest Normally, I don't respond to crazy. It's against my code. But what the fuck, i'm bored and I just finished a code project.
@tempest said: 'some bullshit, roll more dice at an off screen system, more bullshit'
Yes, until we changed the system because of Sam. Which happened pretty much a year ago. So show your age.
@tempest said: 'some bullshit, Shav was TSing players on her NPCs, more bullshit'
Yes, at the request of said player, who was doing it to establish conditions by which he could control the NPCs. Said player did this to other PCs too.
@tempest said: 'some bullshit, husband is a power hungry asshole, more bullshit'
Castle: Staked to death. Total beats 380.
Kylie: Entombed for eternity. Total beats 962.
Wulf: Game closed. Nothing happened. Total beats 845.In comparison, our two oldest players:
Isrieal: Total Beats 1090
Charlotte: Total beats 1163Powerful? Meh.
@tempest said: 'something something these stats are useful everywhere!'
Not particularly. Allies, Mentor, Resources. These things are only really useful if staff puts systems in for them. Resources may be a way to justify requesting an item and Mentor may justify an XP Spend, but really, how many games ask you to justify either of those now-a-days. The answer is not many. So really, merits like that become useless. Even herd, which in practice should give you an easily accessed source of blood only becomes useful when the ST allows it. So i'm not sure where you've been playing that anything like that has been useful by default.
@tempest said: 'Tobias got killed by job!'
Just in case that wasn't made clear enough. Steele was a great prince, but he was getting burnt out because he didn't have anyone he could delegate to. So he was having to deal with all the things himself. This would burn anyone out given that Kingsmouth generated an overabundance of what people considered prince worthy problems. Rather than just removing him and being like 'Welp, have a vote,' we choose to make an RP around it to give players some kind of closure. This was designed with Steele so that it also allowed Steele's wishes to be respected. Steele wanted to go out like a boss and so he did.
@tempest said: 'work out your problems without PvP mmkay?'
Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool. And now we know that Tempest plays on no current vampire game.
@tempest said: 'Nobody could criticize RFK!'
All evidence to the contrary given the 5 different ways we accepted that criticism!
@tempest said: 'I poked around 2 months ago and stuff!'
You must not have looked hard. 2 months ago the only NPCs left were Raine (who probably wouldn't have ever gone away, people like putting in jobs about her), Lucinde (who existed due to plot) and Mother Mathis (because as of yet there wasn't any other real alternative to Elysium, but a player had been working towards that and Mother Mathis would have shut hers down once a player had one). So 3 NPCs. Yes. The NPCs were inundating that game I tell you.
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It's pretty hard to see what she's saying since she seems to have some weird obsessive problem that's not quite revealed itself regarding the game. When she played she was never treated bad or unfairly. If anyone has paid attention she has this established pattern that anytime RFK is even mentioned in a thread on this forum she has to come in spew an ignorant level of misinformation, lies, and angst.
Is she upset because Aoife was plot killed after she made it clear she was leaving and not returning? Or is she upset because she didn't take advantage of other opportunities that she saw others have, and thought were unfair for them to have? Her comment about another game might suggest that game closed because staff there was suuuuuper crazy and people realized it and left - and she might have lost her favorite place in the whole widdle world. Who knows.
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@Tempest said:
There are plenty of ways for those stats to come into play. You just have to actually do shit and not just go 'oh yeah, I've done almost nothing but TS with my regnant, but uhhhh yeah I have allies mobsters! and the mob needs to help us!'
How is that different from any other game where someone has brawl 4 and strength 4 but hasn't roleplayed practicing their martial arts? But when the time comes they can back their Regnant up with their fighting skills?
I don't mean to say you're wrong about the phenomenon existing, just that you're wrong it's got anything to do with RfK in particular. In fact unless staff goes into policing overtime with constant log submissions that would make it hell for players like me, there's no real way around it; people will buy things to use whether they're playing or not.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
