Of Dreams and Nightmares

[ZombieGenesis]

So @Ganymede suggested a theme for an OC supers game involving dreams and nightmares made reality. That, combined with the recent Sandman trailer, got my brain churning. This isn't necessarily a game in development(which is why it's here instead of there) but I thought it might be interesting to talk about. Here are my thoughts/questions...

Living dreams/nightmares? Are they dreams/nightmares made flesh? Like the personifications of dreams given body in the real world? Or are they normal people who have been imbued with powers and abilities linked to dreams and nightmares?

Actual dreams and nightmares? Do people still dream? What effect has dreams and nightmares coming to life had on the actual dreams of normal humans?

OC Supers or...? The original idea was for an OC supers game but might this work better as something more akin to a WoD style universe? Do these supernatural beings walk proudly and openly in the world or hide in the shadows gathering in secret?

Power level? How powerful should these characters be? This will likely be affected by the question above. More WoD/Vampire 5E levels of powers and abilities? Avengers/X-Men? DC/The Boys?

Setting? For me, and this is likely impacted both by the Sandman trailer and the fact that I'm running the Fall of London campaign for my TT group, but I think this would be a great game to set somewhere not in the United States. I think London would be great.

I really dig this idea but, for me, I like it less as an OC supers place and more in-line with a gothic supernatural game. Though I guess there's nothing saying it couldn't be a cross of the two, something more Scion-like in scope?

[Raeras]

Honestly it sounds like Beast the Primordial because they are living nightmares essentially. But the mechanics are kinda eh so I'd figure out someway to pare them down or just use them as a basis for a homebrewed thing.

City of Mists could also be a starting point because from what I know of it, it's living legends and kind of superhero ish.

Gothic horror + OC Supers sounds like an interesting theme for sure though. Lots of opportunity for interesting storytelling.

[Lotherio]

@zombiegenesis If I were taking this approach, I'd embrace the dream/nightmare and I would distance it from WoD. There is a lot to lean into from WoD (@Raeras mentioned Beast the Primordial, when I see dreams/nightmares and questioning if they're real or not, I start thinking classic Changeling the Dreaming). WoD takes a lot from real world horror genres, I was drawn to Changeling in the beginning because I was familiar with Arthurian Legend, and I played Pendragon and I recognized a lot of Changeling theme from classical fairy (Redcaps, Boogans, Sluagh and others are classical boogey-folks already, to me its like WoD picked up Pendragon's fairy/fae and used that as the basis to begin writing Changleling). I think if you attribute anything to WoD, even if it is only a lot of WoD mechanics, and not straight up some book version of WoD it would get a lot of blow back.

Long story short, distance it from WoD, in my opinion. It can be comic book and still have horror elements. I'd also look at Moon Knight. Its all real but not everyone sees it and mostly everyone sees him as a crazy guy. Or the dreams and nightmares are real, just not everyone sees it. Another example would be Rise of the Guardians and their books Guardians of Childhood.

As far as power, that'd be more difficult. If it is everyone appears crazy fighting mostly things that cannot be seen and just looks like people in pajamas fighting thin air, folks might not take to it. Personally, I would love this sort, its like 'keep it secret or they lock you in the looney bin' sort of similar to some sort of masquerade of sorts. And its powerful enough ala Rise of the Guardians that the OC Supers not fighting the nightmares leads to real world consequences for those that cannot see. I don't want to tie it too much into real world, but all the bad stuff going on is the nightmares winning. Mass shootings, epidemics, return of 'isms' (sex/race/gender/religion/etc). Maybe most the supers are doped up by doctors that think they're crazy or locked away and institutionalized^1 after years of psyche docs pushing for this - opioids are out there to subdue the dreamers/supers.

My spiel said, some level of mundane folks being able to see/realize dreams/nightmares to justify the supers in some context might be a better approach. Maybe dreamland is the battle ground and common folks know the supers through dream interaction but they still keep real life identity secret for their protection. If its much more popular where they run around and everyone knows they're dream/nightmare fighters, I think it takes away from having it dream/nightmare based?

ETA:

1. There are still 668 psychiatric hospitals (asylums if you will) in the US. Probably one of the highest by country (just a guess, I have no clue), but other countries still have them. I could see a TT game starting in a place like Stranger Things Hawkins Institute where the supers are controlled and maltreated until they awaken to figure out how to escape and then realize how many nightmares are out there in the world now for them to face/fight/deal with.

ETA2: I just read the Mu's I'd like to make but probably won't, Gany's idea definitely. Sandman Mythos, but look at Rise of the Guardians too, they have one 'area' of abilities that defines their power set.

[Paradox]

@raeras

Oh this is straight up city of mists vibe

[reimesu]

@Ganymede Are you talking about something like what the Corinthian did or how Fiddlers' Green behaved? (I'd elaborate, but if you've read The Sandman, you know, and if you haven't, it's a spoiler.) Or something more like Matthew?

[Lotherio]

@reimesu As someone who has never read The Sandman, I wouldn't mind spoilers on it. The only Neil Geiman I picked up was the Death miniseries (High Cost of Living/Time of Your Life) as that concept appealed to me over his other works, I did like the Graveyard Book too.

Can his Sandman concept be pealed away from any of its correlation with the DC Universe stuff too? Is it close to the concept in Rise of the Guardians? This is only guessing speculation on my part based on the OC powers being based on certain dreams as suggested in the other thread. Like Rise of the Guardians, the guardians have a sphere of powers based on the center/focus or what they're the guardian of, but relatively it comes from the dreams of children and Sandman is vital to that belief existing, so the villains tend to have something to affect dreams. Pitch used fear and as part of that, nightmares in the movie. Another is Lermantoff the Serpant that is a dream eater demon thing.

I'm curious to know more about The Sandman.

[Devrex]

@paradox @raeras Man. City of Mists; talk about a MUSH I'd love but won't make!

[reimesu]

@lotherio I'll PM, because I can go on at length about Sandman. And have. Frequently.

[Raeras]

@devrex Same xD. Concept is pretty cool honestly but definitely no time or energy to be making one

[Paradox]

City of mist as a concept is amazing. As a mechanic based system I don't see it translating well. There was a game that did a similar idea a year ago or so. Didn't make it but was a novel idea.

[Ganymede]

@reimesu said in Of Dreams and Nightmares:

Are you talking about something like what the Corinthian did or how Fiddlers' Green behaved? (I'd elaborate, but if you've read The Sandman, you know, and if you haven't, it's a spoiler.) Or something more like Matthew?

I'm not sure how to answer this question, except by stating where my mind was at the time I wrote my comment.

I was actually at a local karaoke bar, doing my weekend side-gig as a doorperson. It was a busy night, with lots of folks deep into the waters and wailing out good renditions of popular 80s and country songs. Some people wonder why I'd pick up the gig, given how demanding my full-time job + family + school life is. Simply, it is because you learn an awful lot in the bar business just by talking and listening to people's stories.

So it came to me, as it usually does in the din, that the reason I'm so compelled by Gaiman's numerous series is because the man understands stories so very well. And so I thought it would be neat to take the concept of a Morpheus-lost and put into the hands of the players a PC created from a dream or nightmare. So, you'd have Fiddler's Green personified, yes, and the Corinthian, but perhaps you'd have different bits and pieces whose merits and flaws involved around the stories they were crafted from. I would caution against following Gaiman's world precisely, but I do not think that the idea of "other realm escapees" is unique to his work. In fact, there's a part of me that wants to work with that theme for players, and throwing it into a fantasy realm.

This could be an Aberrant game or an adapted Changeling: the Lost game. I really like City of Mist, and its underlying premise fits into the game and setting I'm thinking of. Regardless, while I can work on story elements I would need assistance in coding it up. Given how I see the game working, I sense that I might need to homebrew a system that would give the game the feel I envision, which would be narrative-strong, as opposed to mechanics-crunchy.

[Lotherio]

@ganymede said in Of Dreams and Nightmares:

I would caution against following Gaiman's world precisely, but I do not think that the idea of "other realm escapees" is unique to his work. In fact, there's a part of me that wants to work with that theme for players, and throwing it into a fantasy realm.

I like where you're going already.

This could be an Aberrant game or an adapted Changeling: the Lost game. I really like City of Mist, and its underlying premise fits into the game and setting I'm thinking of. Regardless, while I can work on story elements I would need assistance in coding it up. Given how I see the game working, I sense that I might need to homebrew a system that would give the game the feel I envision, which would be narrative-strong, as opposed to mechanics-crunchy.

I wish I was better at it and had more time to help. I'm slow and ask other folks hundreds of questions to get anything halfway done as it is usually. Regardless I'm curious how your take would go in world building; but I like the world building aspect of things over the crunch of mechanics myself.

[Ganymede]

@lotherio said in Of Dreams and Nightmares:

Regardless I'm curious how your take would go in world building; but I like the world building aspect of things over the crunch of mechanics myself.

The first step is not the world, but the location. I think that a homebrew system and setting needs a very particular location to start with, in which all of the important elements are displayed and explained. Where is the tension? What does everyone else (the NPCs) do? And where do the characters fit into this microcosm? A location needs to be a place that encapsulates all of these starting questions.

That's where I am right now: where to start? City of Mist puts the PCs in a City, and that's always an easy place to drop someone. So, I'm thinking of starting there, but I'm not sure of the overall location. Will it be a fantasy world? Post-apoc? Modern reflection? The selection is important because the more esoteric the setting, the more difficult it is for a player to get engaged.

[Devrex]

@ganymede Given how brain-fried everyone is...modern settings often seem the best bet. Less heavy lifting on "what do? What RP? How does world work?"

[Hella]

@devrex said in Of Dreams and Nightmares:

@ganymede Given how brain-fried everyone is...modern settings often seem the best bet. Less heavy lifting on "what do? What RP? How does world work?"

I don't know. These days I want to be anywhere but our modern world.

[Devrex]

@hella Fair, and often me too, but I'm just observing kind of what seems to be pulling people in and the games that seem to be doing well. I think it's cause with modern world games people can choose to engage with the heavier world plot...or they can just say eff it and go RP getting a cup of coffee or hitting the climbing wall to have a deep conversation or something.

[Lotherio]

@ganymede I'm still churning what this might look like in my head with interest. I like the approach of location first but agree its important but could easily become esoteric. If we through out ideas would that help, or should we silently think encouraging thoughts to see what comes of it.

You know, back when I started Mu'ing I also did mailing list story telling groups to write/bounce idea/occasionally e-mail rp. It also helped to offer ideas and generate collaboratively, if you want someone to write things for you to say no to alot, I can throw out lots of things.

[Ganymede]

@lotherio said in Of Dreams and Nightmares:

I like the approach of location first but agree its important but could easily become esoteric.

As esoteric as it may seem, I still believe it is the fundament on which everything else is based.

If the location is "city," then it is going to look different than "countryside village," or "moon base," or "planet." It is going to affect the sort of stories that can feasibly be run and the feel of the game itself; City of Mist, for example, is very specifically set in some city, as that's the sort of game the system is useful for (heavy-narrative noir). Regardless, I believe that too few games pay enough attention to this part of its design, to its detriment.

I'm leaning towards a steampunk-ish post-apocalyptic feel for the game. Location-wise, I'm vacillating between a destroyed Las Vegas or Narshe from Final Fantasy VI (it is the mountainside village the game starts in).

It also helped to offer ideas and generate collaboratively, if you want someone to write things for you to say no to alot, I can throw out lots of things.

I'm good with a PM chat. Anyone else who is interested, lemme know and I'll toss you into the room.

[lucidmaus]

The idea overall is tripping "You Know They Got a Hell Of a Band" vibes for me. Small town in the middle of nowhere, the kind of place that a person just kind of... stumbles on - but can never, ever leave. Granted, that story was more about where dead musicians go and the living souls that get bound to the place inadvertently, but the idea of nightmares and dreams (and those affiliated with them) somehow being drawn to a place or congregating there without a conscious awareness of what's happening is pretty alluring. Then it's a mystery of 'why them', 'why there', and possibly 'how do we leave' (with all sorts of other plotty possibilities to spin off of that.)

[Macha]

@lucidmaus And suddenly I just hear Hotel California in my head