The Case Against Real PBs

Ghost

I think I've posted about this before, but I've been generating a lot of art lately (Ai and digital) and it made me think of why I'd always prefer that to using actor/model/actress PBs. I thought I'd share.

Real People Puppets
The first thing that has ALWAYS creeped me out about using actor/actress PBs is I'd say over 90% of the MU community uses famous people as PBs, but I'd easily put the % of MUers who partake in TS to be over 70%. This means that they are using a real-person's likeness as a sexual gratification object. It made me wonder what I'd think if I met the person.

"Hey dude, im a huge fan. I use your image to entice others into having cybersex with me, but its okay because its ART" (Airquotes)

At what point is it an unapproved sexualizing of another human being without their permission? If the MU community is the same people who lose their shit playing watchdog for people who are annoying, one would think that not using another human being as a gratification tool would be higher priority. I assume it's no different from Anime: Despite the fact that it sexualizes 10-16 year old girls with fan service and panty shots...."you leave my favorite anime alone!" Anime is largely given a hall-pass on some pretty rank behaviors and I think this behavior tends to be ignored with PBs because "My hobby/story" comes first. Too many people rely on the hobby to find human connection, so like TS=Cybersex, it's just one of those things that talking about would be rocking the boat.

To that, I say...

Rock it.

IT IS A -WRITING- HOBBY
When I started the hobby no one used PBs; they used text description. Granted, I think the use of PBs in the hobby is mostly used like an advertising scheme

"Do you fap to that one girl from that one TV show? Then roleplay with me!"

Or.

"If I use an image of a famous person, then I dont have to be so creative about describing how they look, nor do I have to properly make an actual character. I'll just emulate Rovert Downey Jr"

...which misses the whole point of what the hobby was supposed to be. The amount of this before I ultimately quit the hobby was crazy, and from what I hear it hasn't changed.

Own your content
This is what got me, too. Sure, with your own art (or even Ai) you can actually OWN the material, whereas a good number of PBs used are probably at risk for "cease and desist" as in most cases the photographer or the PBpuppet actually owns that image and how it is used.

Now, this last part is going to sound snide, but it's just me trying to speak plainly and logically:

For the people who have put 10, 20, 30 years into the hobby, and if you want to feel as if you accomplished something other than a revolving cast of closed games and constant slashfic, you really should be attempting to make your own organic content. 30 years of "I sock puppeteered Daniel Craig in over 200 TS scenes" where you used the person's physical likeness and mannerisms isn't actually creating anything, even if you say Daniel Craig is named Steve and is a vampire. The basic building blocks of everything done in that scenario isn't creation; it is emulation, and if the hobby were truly about writing and not about PBs, TS, and constant relationship and coffee scenes there would be more thematic risks, more focus on prose and original concepts, and more games with original themes.

Instead the "bee's knees" is Margot Robbie PB as Emma Frost TSing a Tyler Hoechin PB as Superman on a superhero game where every city and organization (Metropolis, The Green Lanterns, the Xavier Academy) are other people's creations.

Putting it all together in my head, I now see why I didn't like PBs to begin with, and it's not me being some old man shaking a cane at those darned kids.

Misadventure

@Ghost
As a preference, I don't like photos for PB's, especially using well known faces. I find it overwrites the imagination. May as well desc as "You see someone who looks like but definitely isn't <celebrity name> in <source of image>."

However, I suspect by linking it to TS is an argument that will not gain agreement, despite that some have argued that PBs of people when they were underage equates to child sexual abuse material if that player then engages in text based sexual content.

About the best you could hope for is either a spoilers tag on images in a wiki, or add your own filter to avoid the PBs if that's possible.

Ghost

@Misadventure said in The Case Against Real PBs:

overwrites the imagination

I loved that.

And I get it. I'm not a "slut shamer" or whatever. I don't even mind TS in theory, but in my experiences a lot of the TS is more linked to "what's your ooc kink" than "what's your character's kink", which is why I liken the concept for a number of players to it as less of a writing thing and more of a personal gratification thing.

But either way, my litmus test is "is it wrong to use a 'real' person's image (ex: Facebook, your RL girlfriend, or someone's mom) as a PB?" and if the answer is yes, then for the same reasons it's wrong to use celebrities, too.

But if it's not wrong then fuckyeah I'm gonna use every one of the cliques uncle's as PBs, right?

Ganymede

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Putting it all together in my head, I now see why I didn't like PBs to begin with, and it's not me being some old man shaking a cane at those darned kids.

I think we're past the point of needing to justify our likes and dislikes, so this really reads to me like an attempt to shame.

If you don't like PBs, then don't use them. Stay off the wiki entirely, and don't look other folks up. Kind of simple fix if it is truly upsetting.

I use wikis to figure out who I want to RP with, and my decision isn't based on what PBs they use.

ZombieGenesis

I'm going to break my post up into two parts; AI Images vs Actors and my thoughts on this thread as a whole.

AI Images vs Actors
I think AI art is amazing. I pay MJ a yearly sub so I can create images to my heart's content. I think it has a lot of advantages for MUSHing. Being able to create truly unique images for your character that can be tailored to the game theme is a powerful argument for AI art, IMO.

That said, getting consistent images of a singular character can be very difficult. I think that might change in the upcoming months with MJ, but for now, it can be very difficult and is reliant more on luck than prompting.

I think actors have a place for PBs as well. I often base my portrayal of a character on the actor I'm using to play them. It can affect how they act, how they talk, and how they react to things. I often hear their voice when I write dialogue or imagine how they might act in my writing scene. I wouldn't say it overwrites the imagination at all. For me, a good PB can fuel my imagination.

Also, you can often find dozens(if not hundreds) of suitable images for your character, especially on games set in a modern setting.

My Thoughts On This Thread

A while ago, there was a discussion about "Why aren't there more MU discussions here?". I think this post is emblematic of why activity has dropped here so much. To me, it very much comes across as, "This is why I think you're a creepy weirdo for Sex Reasons."

I think there is certainly a discussion to be had for a game using only AI imagery instead of PBs. I think it could absolutely be a good alternative. I also think there are plenty of reasons to keep using PBs as they've been used since I got into MUing in 1995, and they don't need to include Creepy Sex Reasons.

The problem is, I didn't get the impression that's what this post was really about at all. To me, it very much came across as a judgemental post meant to shame people who do enjoy using PBs, for whatever reason.

And I think that's the primary problem with the MU community as a whole. A lot of people are much more interested in judging others than they are in coming together to tell cool stories.

Misadventure

@ZombieGenesis
This is not why traffic dropped here. The people who left had plenty of judgement etc going on with some individuals. It doesn't matter really, as none of it is going to change.

What did you all think of the argument that underage images equals child abuse sexual materials when paired with textual sexual situations? (The examples were l when the person was 16-17 if I recall correctly, not like 5 or 10).

If that has merit, can you articulate what the difference is? Maybe because it's representing what would be a legal action? Or there isn't a strong evidence of someone being a creeper about that particular person, while there are lots of sexual predators online, extending to real world or not? I mean, I think people would be creeped out if someone was coming across as a serious stalker of the person and RPing as a version of them.

Just curious about people's feelings or thinking.

reimesu

Actually, I have an inability to imagine faces from text. Which is why I like PBs. It's not a failure of imagination, it's that it's not how my imagination works.

Anyone who wants to think it's creepy can, but it's not going to change the fact that three screens of florid, purple prose will not form a face in my head. It's just the way it is.

Nor am I ashamed of liking to picture actors in a MU role, because it's not the actor doing the actions. It's the character. That's much the same as...oh, any acting role an actor takes. Does anyone honestly think the ACTOR is really James Bond, or Frodo, or the Black Widow, or whomever? No. Most people can separate fantasy from reality. Those who can't shouldn't be in the hobby anyway.

hobos

Recognizing that a fair deal of MU*ers are vision-impaired is integral to the understanding that a PB doesn't function as a replacement for an actual description. Vision-impaired people have very little use for PBs in general.

But I can't understand if this is just about PBs, or specifically about PBs that are photographs of people. If it's just about PBs, well, when I started mudding as a wee 12-year-old was the first time I started drawing pictures of my characters and it was definitely not about cybersex.

That said, I completely agree that for some people, it's apparent that the PB is about cybersex. I think those are the minority though, and I've learned enough to steer clear of those few. Either way, the PBs aren't the problematic thing about them, it's the sexpesting that is problematic.

Ganymede

@Misadventure

I think that if there is an issue with underage PBs, then that issue is distinct and separate from what Ghost brought up.

Misadventure

@hobos I would say that Played Bys seem to refer to real people portraying the character, like a show or film credit.

Original artwork, and even artwork for characters who are mainly portrayed as art (comics, manga, anime, video games, animation, artwork in books) doesn't have a real person to portray the character.

Text based RP is certainly a long way away from deepfakes.

Depicting crimes in text is not illegal in the US as far as I know, unless it's a serious how to where specific information like actual models of security systems, software details etc are included. Even then - it's not illegal to point out a security weakness in known systems.

I'm mainly curious as to why one real world attribute matters, when another doesn't seem to. But again, nothing's going to change. If I were to run a MU* and decide I didn't want PBs, I would just make that policy and if asked why answer "because that's how I want it."

Derp

I don’t have much of a dog in this fight, but two things strike me:

If you don’t like PBs, don’t use them. You can’t really force people to accommodate your personal tastes, and it does kinda feel a little shame-y.
Tangentially, but: People keep calling this a writing hobby. But it isn’t. I think that’s where a lot of heartburn comes from. It’s a storytelling hobby, which is something distinct. A writing hobby focused on producing increasingly good writing. We don’t really do that. We just focus on entertaining people. It doesn’t matter if some of us suck at character descs. That isn’t the point of the exercise or what we’re investing our time in. (Most of us. Some Arx descs I’ve seen read like a thesis on weaving and embroidery, so it’s certainly not universally true.)

Point being, calling it a writing hobby and getting mad that people lack the skill to wordsmith something to give you a perfect picture in your head really misses the mark of what skills are actually important for the end result of “being entertained with a collaborative story,” especially when there are literal pictures to help you get a picture in your head.

Misadventure

@Derp I don't call it a writing hobby. No one has.

Not doing something you don't like doesn't shield you from others doing it. For a collaborative thing that's going to be a difficulty.

Ghost in on about a legal or at least reasoned question about PBs.

I personally know how to block what is sent to my computer from MU* and wikis, so I can take care of my own interests, if I had them.

Or are you saying that my feeling that my imagination is overwritten and I don't like it is something I do wrong and should change my experience?

So far got lots of disagree but not much reasoning shared about the question put out there.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

reimesu

@Misadventure
@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

IT IS A -WRITING- HOBBY

Ghost said it. It was a headline.

ZombieGenesis

@Misadventure said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Not doing something you don't like doesn't shield you from others doing it. For a collaborative thing that's going to be a difficulty.

I don't think it is that difficult. Here's the thing about someone's chosen PB, it really only matters to them. Everyone else can ignore it or even replace it in their heads. I think there are very few occasions where strictly adhere to "X is playing my character" affects RP in any significant way.

Ghost in on about a legal or at least reasoned question about PBs.

I don't think that's what Ghost was talking about. In fact, I'm not even sure there was an actual question in his post.

Or are you saying that my feeling that my imagination is overwritten and I don't like it is something I do wrong and should change my experience?

I think this hobby's only "wrong fun" is ruining someone else's RP by being selfish. If using PBs negatively impacts your RP, don't use them. As I said above, it'll not impact RP significantly. Even if they don't have a decently written @desc(and how many of them do?), you know their general appearance. And if there are any specific questions about what they're wearing, you can always ask OOCly.

So far got lots of disagree but not much reasoning shared about the question put out there.

I think plenty of reasons have been shared regarding the original post. I think the issue is there really isn't a "question put out there." As for the legality of certain age groups for PBs, I have been focusing on the original post's content. Which wasn't about the legality of PBs in any way as I understood it.

If I were to run a MU* and decide I didn't want PBs, I would just make that policy and if asked why answer "because that's how I want it."

No other reason is needed. Not enough game runners use this philosophy and end up doing things they don't want to do and wind up with regrets.

faraday

@reimesu said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Actually, I have an inability to imagine faces from text. Which is why I like PBs. It's not a failure of imagination, it's that it's not how my imagination works.

Same. One of my early games was Babylon 5 MUSH. I played for YEARS on that game never actually knowing what any of the non-FC characters looked like. A few years ago I did an exercise of asking my old friends from that game which PB they would choose for their characters. Suddenly those characters were enriched for me in a way that they never were before.

Can people use it for creepy ends and/or get weirdly obsessed? Sure. But that's not what everybody is doing, and that doesn't mean the practice has no value.

@Derp said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Point being, calling it a writing hobby and getting mad that people lack the skill to wordsmith something to give you a perfect picture in your head really misses the mark of what skills are actually important for the end result of “being entertained with a collaborative story,”

I still consider it "a writing hobby" because I would argue the core of writing is exactly what you're describing there. Writing fiction is about telling a story, not about the mechanics of florid prose. There are tons of popular books out there with bare-bones or even non-existent descriptions, and even ones regarded as literary classics (ala Hemingway).

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

But either way, my litmus test is "is it wrong to use a 'real' person's image (ex: Facebook, your RL girlfriend, or someone's mom) as a PB?" and if the answer is yes, then for the same reasons it's wrong to use celebrities, too.

I have nothing against your personal litmus test and I respect your principles. My issue is you seem to be casting judgment on others for having a different litmus test.

I would never use a regular non-celebrity real person as a PB. But big-name (adult) actors/actresses are putting their likeness out there into the public eye in ways that regular people do not. Their faces are on action figures, posters, video game characters, etc. Hollywood scripts are written with dream casting ("I had Tom Cruise in mind for this character.") Fan fiction utilizes characters from a book/film/series in new ways the author/actors maybe never anticipated. And people have been fantasizing about celebrities for as long as there have been celebrities.

Whether all of that is abhorrent boundary-crossing or just part of the job they chose (or both, maybe?) is something everyone has to decide for themselves.

Macha

See for me, I get an idea of what I want a character to look like, and will try to find an actor/actress or famous-ish model that comes as close as I can.

What I would love is to be able to find someone who comes close, and use AI to try and change it up to be a little closer to my original mental picture.

And somewhat like Faraday and Reimesu - I can have a hard time with picturing a face from description.

Ganymede

@Misadventure said in The Case Against Real PBs:

So far got lots of disagree but not much reasoning shared about the question put out there.

This may be because, as I wrote earlier, I think we're all old enough that we don't feel the need to demand that others change our minds on things which, although we believe are well-reasoned, ultimately are matters of opinion.

I can love and respect someone, and still find their opinion on things to be silly. There's no harm in using a picture in public domain, and so long as I am not financially-benefitting from its use a plaintiff cannot maintain a legal claim.

faraday

@Misadventure said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Or are you saying that my feeling that my imagination is overwritten and I don't like it is something I do wrong and should change my experience?

It seems like just a clash of preferences?

For you, seeing a PB overwrites your imagination in a way you don't like.

For me, NOT seeing a PB leaves a void in my imagination in a way I don't like.

Nobody (that I saw?) is saying that either of our likes are intrinsically more valid than the other. It's just that allowing PBs or not is kind of a game-wide decision.

Allowing PBs for those who want them seems like a reasonable middle ground between requiring them for everybody (to cater to my preference) or denying them to everybody (to cater to yours).

Ghost

@Ganymede said in The Case Against Real PBs:

so this really reads to me like an attempt to shame.

Nah, I mean I obviously have my own biases and opinions. I don't think anyone should be shamed for TSing. I just think the people who call it "writing" and then repeat that mantra despite the ooc attachments, jealousy, etc should be shamed. It's not writing for them.

But those kinds of people using PBs as cybersex sock puppets ARE technically facilitating a sexualized experience with said person's likeness.

Ghost

@ZombieGenesis said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Here's the thing about someone's chosen PB, it really only matters to them.

Respectfully, I think I will have to disagree with you, here.

I would say the # of times someone sent me 2 pictures linked in a page and asked who I'd rather fuck is pretty high, as is the number of times someone's told me "I had a bad experience with a Chris Pratt so won't RP with someone with that PB (or "only crazy girls and dudes pick Milla" has been said to me more than once). I've also had instances where people specifically thought to "collect" my PC by picking PBs they think might be in my wheelhouse. I've been asked on numerous occasions to make characters with very specific PBs based on their kinks (Gerard Butler, Cilian Murphy, etc)

Just being honest, here. The hobby has a lot of platitudes about "say this but don't say that" (Storytelling not writing despite people being judged on their ability to write, ts vs ooc cybersex, etc), and I think that "the only people who care about the PB is the player" is one of them. There is absolutely an element of trying to use PBs as lures for TS and romantic roleplay, and anyone saying otherwise is either out of bias or protecting the argument.

There's a whole iceberg of stuff that is weird, and I just happen to think PBs are one of them.