Stranger Danger?

Ghost

This is more a question than anything, really.

WHAT ARE PEOPLE'S VIEWS ON THE 'STRANGER' FACTOR?

Was thinking about this a few days ago, but with (far) more than a handful of my own creeper/unethical experiences in MU, I thought the topic of approach to the fact that text-people are complete strangers might be interesting. There's threads about people being "dangerous", the hobby has its own "Rogue's gallery" that people actively seem to fear, and God knows me and my whole thing about what some others refer to as "harmless underage character TS" (myself and most psychs use a different term, but I digress).

So I think it's fairly established that people think there is a constant fear of dangerous person stuff, but I'm somewhat ever-curious about how people who are still in the hobby mitigate those risks. Example:

Given the fact that anyone could be anyone at any given time (and one can only assume the person is who they say they are), what do you as a person do to mitigate the risk when seeking potentially personally vulnerable RP (TS/Relationships) or sharing personally identifying information?

Misadventure

@Ghost
Know, learn or guess what your personally vulnerable roleplay topics are.
Don't do RP thats personally vulnerable.
Dont' give out personal details like names, locations, job title.
Don't share any social media, it's a network of places for you and others to make security mistakes.

If there are questions about people you RP wiith, ask them. Ask others. You dont have the believe anyone and you need to remember both manipulative intent, and personal bias.

Remember that these are people, with all the human traits, good and bad.
Remember that you are worthwhile.
Look up manipulation techniques, such as framing everything as what you owe others. Resist them. Discuss what you feel and walk away from those who are repeat offenders.
In game events do not justify bad behavior as a player.
If you are connecting romantically, sexually, or as companionship, it comes with all the risks of using an app to find someone for the same. Stalkers, grifters, users, abusers galore, entitled, jaded, etc
You don't owe anyone your time.
You don't owe anyone anything other than basic good citizenship.
You'll be lucky to finnd some great friends you can suspend all this with.
If you must use other media like discord, ideally create accounts per game.
Do not go on camera.
Do not expect staff to be more trustworthy. Being staff just means they get something done.

They say that nicotine addiction after a certain point is about relieving the withdrawal. If someones "friendship" feels like you are in trouble and then when you do the right thing, it feels better, get away.

Still make friends and delight in how awesome a lot of people are.

minipeebo120

@Misadventure said in Stranger Danger?:

Dont' give out personal details like names, locations, job title.
Don't share any social media, it's a network of places for you and others to make security mistakes.
If there are questions about people you RP wiith, ask them. Ask others. You dont have the believe anyone and you need to remember both manipulative intent, and personal bias.
Remember that these are people, with all the human traits, good and bad.
Remember that you are worthwhile.
Look up manipulation techniques, such as framing everything as what you owe others. Resist them. Discuss what you feel and walk away from those who are repeat offenders.
In game events do not justify bad behavior as a player.
If you are connecting romantically, sexually, or as companionship, it comes with all the risks of using an app to find someone for the same. Stalkers, grifters, users, abusers galore, entitled, jaded, etc
You don't owe anyone your time.
You don't owe anyone anything other than basic good citizenship.
You'll be lucky to finnd some great friends you can suspend all this with.
If you must use other media like discord, ideally create accounts per game.
Do not go on camera.

I was recruited to MUSH, by Qaz420, "Rynthas", when I was 12. I was a Quakeworlder, in the John Hopkins program, PSATs and SATs, for middle schoolers. I had hacked Andrew Wachowski, getting him arrested, just before "Matrix 1".

Derp

No idea who that is, feels like a bot, but I don't have the time or the patience for it so banned.

Ghost

@Derp Yeah I saw the other thread first and was about to ask "what in the mildly constructive fuck?" Glad I checked this other one first

Ghost

@Misadventure said in Stranger Danger?:

Know, learn or guess what your personally vulnerable roleplay topics are.

I liked that one a lot.

For me, I learned after a certain point to do what I call "guarding my space". I decided that only the 1 or 2 people I was actively friends with (friends as in "not an acquaintance but someone I'd known long enough to be sure who they were), but even then I tend to be vague about my personal life issues. I started holding back on personal details after an incident where I had to put some distance between myself and someone oocly who i was somewhat close with, and their response was to tell everyone my private business and that I was some kind of leech. People are absolute dog shit sometimes. Weaponizing someone's RL issues as a means of retaliation is pretty bad. Then again, it could have been way, way worse.

But in terms of "guarding my space", I took a deep look at where my "blind spots" were. It's hard to be honest about that kind of stuff, but it did me well. I reminded myself that people in the hobby were strangers in the actual sense, and like most people they tend to present an idealized version of themselves because ultimately they're text, strangers, and could really be anyone. Even that person who fucked me over was really a stranger then, too, and who the fuck knows why I shared personal details.

At some point (lol) I just stopped even caring or thinking about who I was RPing with and just accepted them as "stranger who roleplays well". I have it on good authority from the gay community that some gay men tend to present as female to get solid TS from assumed actual men, but then something in my head tripped and I realized I could have at any time done the same if I wanted to.

I mean, fuck, it's theoretically possible that people have unknowingly TSed family members or celebrities. Even Bin Laden was allegedly super active on Xenoverse/Xenoverse2, and definitely under an assumed identity.

Now, my approach ultimately led me to caring less about game stuff and stopping MuRP altogether because whatever attachments I had kinda disintegrated into "fuck it they're strangers, I have plenty of RL friends", and whenever drama started I just...stopped giving a fuck. This worked for me, but probably not everyone, but that's my big tl;dr suggestion:

Guard your space.
These people are strangers, and it's better for you to guard your information going out (Pii that can get you stalked, harassed, abused, put in danger, public ridicule), than to find yourself trying to wrestle control from someone who has taken it from you due to them knowing too much.

After all, it's pretty possible that at least one (or more?) of the dozens of people in the community has catfished their "persona/identity" on an ooc-level, for good or bad reasons. Just be careful.

faraday

Where I've landed after all these years:

I stick to friendly co-op games.
I don't do PVP or TS.
I enforce firm boundaries on IC relationships. (Though even that has proved exhausting enough that I am now leery of romantic RP with anyone I don't already know and trust OOCly.)
I'm choosy about the games I play on - usually either my own or ones from people I trust.

I feel bad that you've had such horrible experiences, though, because I have made several life-long friends through MUSHing. Not just "oh they RP well so it's fun to play a game with them" but true friends. Yes, we must be cautious and sensible with any interactions on the internet, but I don't think we need to be so paranoid that we cut ourselves off from meaningful interaction.

Hella

@faraday said in Stranger Danger?:

Where I've landed after all these years:

I stick to friendly co-op games.

I don't do PVP or TS.

I enforce firm boundaries on IC relationships. (Though even that has proved exhausting enough that I am now leery of romantic RP with anyone I don't already know and trust OOCly.)

I'm choosy about the games I play on - usually either my own or ones from people I trust.

I feel bad that you've had such horrible experiences, though, because I have made several life-long friends through MUSHing. Not just "oh they RP well so it's fun to play a game with them" but true friends. Yes, we must be cautious and sensible with any interactions on the internet, but I don't think we need to be so paranoid that we cut ourselves off from meaningful interaction.

All of the above, though one slight alteration. I enforce firm boundaries, period. IC, OOC, all the boundaries, everywhere. And if there's even the slightest hint of a red flag, I just say so and move on. It has led to a world of difference for me, and I can genuinely say the friends I've made, I feel honoured to have made.

faraday

@Hella said in Stranger Danger?:

I enforce firm boundaries, period. IC, OOC, all the boundaries, everywhere.

Oh yes, very true. I only call out IC relationships specifically because that's been the #1 source of boundary issues through the years.

Ghost

@faraday said in Stranger Danger?:

@Hella said in Stranger Danger?:

I enforce firm boundaries, period. IC, OOC, all the boundaries, everywhere.

Oh yes, very true. I only call out IC relationships specifically because that's been the #1 source of boundary issues through the years.

Which makes sense, because "ic relationships" sometimes seem to be tied to RL personal vulnerabilities, so it's a minefield.

A few people have told me that they adamantly believe that all Mu chars are extensions of the players, and disagreed when I said that a player could be so divorced from the concept of the PC that it could be treated as a separate entity. So if you combine this concept with the sheer vulnerability some people wade into in IC relationships, it's no wonder why the boundary issues happen.

This isn't meant to be provocative, but with all this in mind it is wholly possible that someone in an IC relationship with your character, even if they're not aware of it, may be getting that feedback as actual intimacy. This in mind, it then makes it possible that some players may have felt they had some kind of actual relationship with the player or character, which forms an attachment. When the other player goes away, it turns into some kind of grieving (loss, sadness, anger, retaliation).

^ I write this because it again highlights how quickly these things can get personal despite your best intentions, and whoever it is they say they are one needs to just hope they're stable enough not to impact your RL.

Misadventure

@Ghost
Its been said that the human brain cannot distinguish between imagination and reality. Seems fair, given that everything is in the brain, and we can fool ourselves or be fooled for a long long time.

If you believe that people can have strong personal reactions for public images, or characters in a book or film, stands to reason it would be fairly common for there to be bleed. In a way, that IS the point, to have investment, sympathy.

It's a question of self awareness, and managing that bleed.

I'd like to suggest that even if a player is completely separate from a character, as we imagine an author or tactical player might be, there is still the reward of collaboration, and the ease of familiarity, which is still an in to a players emotions.

Be aware, and manage it.

faraday

@Misadventure said in Stranger Danger?:

It's a question of self awareness, and managing that bleed.

Yeah, I mean - if authors and fans and actors can all get overly invested in their characters, it's only natural that MU players will sometimes too. But that's why boundaries and communication are important.

@Ghost said in Stranger Danger?:

^ I write this because it again highlights how quickly these things can get personal despite your best intentions, and whoever it is they say they are one needs to just hope they're stable enough not to impact your RL.

Isn't that true of any relationship, though, online or off? Someone who's had bad experiences is naturally going to be more leery than someone who hasn't, but it almost seems like you're saying it's better to just never engage OOCly at all. (Maybe I'm misunderstanding.) Even if that were practical, I'm not convinced it would really insulate you from drama.

reimesu

What I do is try to find the person who's a RL friend who wants the same kind of RP. Either come into the game with an established "relationship" or map out what the two of you want to happen in RP and actually stay in communication. Then we both have a shield from predators. This has worked on numerous games.

For meeting new people, there's always networking within the friend-group you have. "Do you know who this person is or know them from another game?"

But really, you are 100% in control of the information you give out, so be very sure before you give it out. Predators will stalk even without the personal info, so don't jump in with both feet the first time you chat with someone OOCly. If they're giving you their life story before you've even said hello, it's a red flag.

Ghost

@faraday said in Stranger Danger?:

Isn't that true of any relationship, though, online or off? Someone who's had bad experiences is naturally going to be more leery than someone who hasn't, but it almost seems like you're saying it's better to just never engage OOCly at all. (Maybe I'm misunderstanding.)

True, absolutely. Like I said, my approach led to somewhat of an isolationist stance that led to me ultimately leaving the hobby; it worked for me mentally but may not work for many others. As @Misadventure said it's a question of knowing yourself and how to manage your own bleed. Leaving the games, in the end, was the right call for me per my mind, how I work, etc.

I'm not convinced it would really insulate you from drama.

Part of where I came to with my decision is that I felt drama couldnt truly be avoided. A while back I tried just being somewhat anonymous on a game and it resulted in a ton of WhoAreYou and Where have you played and random pages about how people were concerned I was (satire/example) "Burbleboxoloxicoth on Arx who used that PB", and maybe 50% of the time that happened I had no clue who the person was asking about, and the player said something like "if you won't tell me who you are, I don't trust you and won't rp with you".

It was as if to mitigate the attack surface of drama and not making who I was OOCly a topic, I was immediately opening myself to suspicion. Which, I feel it was logical to assume that to avoid that drama, I would need to expose myself, which would then lead to being tied to whatever drama, past or present, was associated with an entire buncha HogPitters.

But yeah, in my perfect world, the right to remain anonymous and partake in roleplay without needing to expose who you are as an OOC persona would be important. I think that should be everyone's right to do so without being treated with hostility.

The topic of "needing to protect oneself from so-called "dangerous" players (a term I feel is often leveled at innocent people, annoying people, in the absence of actual dangerous people) absolutely clashes with the ability to be anonymously cordial and enjoy the hobby without partaking in the mud-slinging side-game.

I ~~see~~ saw no good answer, so I chose what felt right for me. It's disappointing, but I'm enjoying my new hobbies.

faraday

@Ghost said in Stranger Danger?:

But yeah, in my perfect world, the right to remain anonymous and partake in roleplay without needing to expose who you are as an OOC persona would be important. I think that should be everyone's right to do so without being treated with hostility.

I do agree it's everyone's right to not be treated with hostility, but I don't think "Eh, I'd rather not RP with someone for <insert any reason short of bigotry>" is "hostility". People have a right to RP (or not) with whomever they choose. Nobody is owed someone else's time.

When I decide whether or not to join a game on Storium, for instance, I look over the profile of the GM and other players to see what else they've done and whether they'd be fun to play with. If someone has no history, that's not necessarily a red flag, but it does influence my decision. And it's entirely Storium's right as a platform to say that each player may have only one account. (I don't know if they do, just saying they could.)

In fact, I would argue that this idea of player anonymity (not in a PII/RL sense but in a 'different identity across each game instance' sense) is pretty unique to MUSHes these days.

I think certain behaviors in the community have made it a necessary evil, but I don't think it's good. That's why I created the handle system for Ares. It is optional for practical reasons, but in my philosophical ideal world, it wouldn't be.

reimesu

There's one guy who was on The Network and then on another game that I was on who would vault over boundaries. The second time he did it, he did it while not using his normal Ares handle so I wouldn't know it was him. (I figured it out on my own, anyway. He had very noticeable patterns.)

To quote a friend, "Consent that you have to lie to get isn't consent." Frankly, I don't understand how anyone can leave MUshing due to bad experiences and distrust and then complain that those of us who stayed want to be able to know who we associate with on a regular basis. That's a pretty big disconnect, thinking that it's OOC drama to ask for that information. It's not, it's called informed consent. If someone is on the receiving end of the question, that's not OOC drama, it's someone being self-protective due to past incidents, or actively trying to avoid OOC drama.

Hell, I know there's a number of people who don't want to RP with me. I do my best to respect that. I'm an acquired taste and I get that I'm not everyone's cuppa.

Macha

I mean, I can see both sides here. Would I like to be able to be anonymous, and just find somewhere fun to play? Of course, because we've all seen the shit I've been given, names I've been called, etc, even when I did nothing amiss, I would love to be anonymous. But at the same time, I am beyond sure I have my tells, patterns, and things, so people know when it's me.

The thing is for me, I don't go digging to find out who I may be playing with, unless they do something that makes something in my brain go "Wait!" It may be a good thing, or a bad thing, but.. there it is.

I know, there are people out there right now who may look at the idea I'm willing to RP with most everyone unless they've done something super egregious to me, or super gross that I've seen proof of. Something something people pleaser, ass kisser, whatever. But for me, it's more about wanting to believe in second chances.

Ganymede

@Misadventure said in Stranger Danger?:

Know, learn or guess what your personally vulnerable roleplay topics are.
Don't do RP thats personally vulnerable.
Don't give out personal details like names, locations, job title.
Don't share any social media, it's a network of places for you and others to make security mistakes.

These four points are always good to follow.

I thought I had made friends over my past 25+ years of doing this, but I misjudged how firm many of those friendships were.

Last suggestion:

It's okay to let it all go.

And I have.

Ghost

@reimesu said in Stranger Danger?:

Frankly, I don't understand how anyone can leave MUshing due to bad experiences and distrust and then complain that those of us who stayed want to be able to know who we associate with on a regular basis. That's a pretty big disconnect, thinking that it's OOC drama to ask for that information. It's not, it's called informed consent. If someone is on the receiving end of the question, that's not OOC drama, it's someone being self-protective due to past incidents, or actively trying to avoid OOC drama.

I wouldn't understand either, if such a thing were actually happening.

Simply asking isn't drama, but the overall concept of some light interrogation and demanding personal information really, in a nutshell, is drama/dramatic/Etc. It's pressuring, and while I understand your argument is greatly valid...all I'm saying is that that the existing need to validate for self-protection is, in itself, an uncomfortable place for a hobby to be. Especially considering that anyone, at any time, is capable of introducing their new 'identity' as being whoever they choose.

I ain't judging. Fuck that.

I just think "what would a completely brand, new, walk-in, never-heard-about person think about getting into the hobby with ___________ ?", and I think the level of drama and fear would just be so weird to someone new. And then I think "shit, I got used to that, so maybe I just got weird." ...or some varying theme of that.

But we should probably get back to the topic (how one approaches the stranger Danger factor) before people get too judgmental.

Tapewyrm

@Ganymede said in Stranger Danger?:

I thought I had made friends over my past 25+ years of doing this, but I misjudged how firm many of those friendships were.

That's been a rollercoaster I've ridden too of late. Some friendships were indeed firm, but others were far less than I hoped.

Personally I just RP about the things I want to wrote stories about, and don't RP the things I'm not that into. I rarely play IC relationships with others, unless they're my actual RL partner, since I like to save that side of myself for that person, and it saves on drama.