Shadowrun Denver & New Plot
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Shadowrun is, in fact, a post-apocalyptic setting. The Great Ghost Dance, VITAS (one AND two), UEG, the Crash of '29... all of them reduce the population by huge amounts. The Crash goes another step, destroying a ton of data, and what data it didn't wipe out, it almost certainly turned into a Black IC minefield. So there is a degree of Lost Tech, though it is not as widespread as other settings.
Unrelated tangent - I find it hilarious because when I first read the Shadowrun stuff in 2000-ish, I thought 'That's stupid, because they'll have books and hardcopies of data and shit, society will bounce back', and now, I'm all like 'give me digital everything, books are heavy and kill trees'.
One of the earlier Shadowrun novels (Shadow Play, by Nigel Finley) actually goes into what happens when some of this lost tech gets discovered - war in the streets as the Megacorps start breaking corporate law, because whoever gets their hands on the tech will be so powerful/make enough profit that the legal fees don't matter. Or maybe they'll just have the tech to nuke the court in orbit and every other mega's headquarters, and not have to deal with any of it.
It's not so much that it was written in the late 80's being the problem (because, again, this is a book that the core has details for wrist-worn, or pocket-sized computers, and a smartphone type pocket secretary that has matrix capability, even... so tech miniaturization is clearly there, and Matrix 3 gives you even more ways to tap that tech into the Matrix wirelessly). The problem is that SR 1-3 all recognized the thematic reason that the matrix was setup the way that it was - to stop another Crash of '29/Super Virus from happening. A virus that just cuts through our current, and eventual future protocols. So it makes sense that it doesn't follow our current computer logic.
Now that theme is out of the way, the rules for it all? Are a fucking nightmare. So I get why the RULES needed an update. The first three editions had things that were broken, and instead of fixing them, they decided to just add on new rules to patch a thing, but didn't actually fix anything, aside from just add more broken stuff. So I can appreciate 4 and 5 changing that way. Unfortunately, I have to actually sit and play a game before I can talk full on balance, and the only MU out there is SR3.
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Setting wise I definitely prefer the earlier editions of Shadowrun. But then It is for feel reasons.
I have played ever Edition of Shadow Run except 2, and 3 was my least favorite mechanically, that is the main reason I have never given Denver a real look over the years to be honest. -
One thing I don't understand: How hard is it to modify a given set of SR rules to have the tech you don't like? The setting and the tech aren't the same thing. You want wireless, say its wireless. Done. If you love the wireless tech from another book, use those items with the rules set. Or plaster the names onto the items that are in the rule set.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
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It's not super difficult. I often turf the ambush rules because they're awful and just go with something common to the other games that I play--if people fail the spot check, they miss the first pass.
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@Misadventure Mechanically it's not super hard. I think it's more the fact that it messes with peoples' expectations. If you say "SR3" there's a certain set of assumptions. If you say "Oh we're SR3 except for X..." then you open the door to folks being like: "But what about Y, or Z, which are kinda related to X but not expressly spelled out..."
Unrelated, I'm not quite sure why anyone would pick the SR3 mechanics with a SR4 setting, since the SR4 rules are so much more streamlined. But maybe that's just me.
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I kind of laughed to myself when I logged back in and saw that an advertisement for a plot running and a mush devolved into a debate about rule sets, theme, and what not. Shadowrun definitely has a lot of opinions! For me- it's a set game and even if modern tech is more advanced in some ways, there are also orks and dragons so why quibble.
Regarding rule set I don't have any control over that, so I'm neutral, but as I wrote in my first reply I will instate karma caps and what not as needed. For the game, the setting started in mid/early 2060's and has evolved from there branching off at times etc.
Back on topic, if you're interested in playing feel free to @mail me I am Finn on Story Staff as well.
Cheers!
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@Coin said:
@faraday said:
@Thenomain Fallout has a thematic reason for being low-tech, like Battlestar. SR3's reason is just "It was written in the 80s." Given that it's arguably supposed to share the same history as the real world, that makes it a little jarring.
I haven't actually played Fallout, but IIRC, the reason for it being low-tech is that most of its advancements past 1950s technology are post-apocalyptic, so it only really shares a history with the real world up to a certain point in time--a point that has technology would would consider pretty retro now a days.
The Great War (WW3, I suppose) started October 2077. Yet radios, televisions, population density, all of these are at 1950s levels. Reasons: None. Yet we're stuck on this stupid wired/wireless debate for Shadowrun.
@faraday said:
@Coin - yes, I was saying Shadowrun was jarring, not Fallout. Fallout is more of an alternate history setting.
Except that it's an alternative future setting based on some changes that started in the 1940s. This is not unlike reminding people how Shadowrun had elves, trolls, and dragons in the Third Age, if you follow its reported history, and yet somehow we have absolutely no archaeological evidence to support this. I'm sure someone has said "herp derp magic", but if you can accept this then you can accept how an insanely large throughput required by the 'Net has outpaced wireless. But no, people are going to go right past the history and to this. Because we are nerds, and this is what nerds do.
Nnnrrrrrrrrrrrrds.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain said:
The Great War (WW3, I suppose) started October 2077. Yet radios, televisions, population density, all of these are at 1950s levels. Reasons: None. Yet we're stuck on this stupid wired/wireless debate for Shadowrun.
Huh, I always thought Fallout was based on an alternate-history 1950's theme. Shows how much I paid attention
For the record, I did like SR3 a lot. That was the era when I was one of FASA's freelancers, so I'll always have a special fondness for it.
If they had stuck to their guns and left the setting alone, that would be one thing. But they didn't. 4th edition upped the tech level, and all I'm saying is that I like that version better for a variety of reasons - not the least of which is that it mucks less with my suspension of disbelief. Yes, I can accept elves and trolls but find a cyberpunk setting without wireless jarring. It's just a personal preference. I'm a nerd!
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I had more of an issue that Native Americans created magic and ended up pushing the non-Natives into hyperpacked conglomerates. I still do. And Elves take over Ireland because ... hell if I know. And speaking of suspension of disbelief, why isn't there a penalty when you're using wireless, because wireless kind of sucks compared to a direct connection. And, and, and ...
Screw it. Roll me a Dwarf.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain Fair enough. Setting suspension of disbelief aside though, adding wireless makes the decker/hacker a much more integrated, fun and playable concept. And AR is just neat.
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@faraday said:
@Thenomain Fair enough. Setting suspension of disbelief aside though, adding wireless makes the decker/hacker a much more integrated, fun and playable concept. And AR is just neat.
Well of course. Anything to solve the Decker As Solo Character is a good thing, and I'm glad that AR was stolen whole-cloth from Cybergeneration.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain Agreed. When I played SR I couldn't tell what I hated more, playing a decker or GMing for a party with one.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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Best version of an SR decker pre 4th edition was having the character played remotely. I know that sounds weird but it was during my freshman year of college the GM had a friend form his hometown who went to a different school chat over IRC during our session and that was out decker contact slash PC. They would do the decker stuff on-line while the IC meat world stuff was played out with face to face rp. Neither ICly or OOCly did we ever meet the guy.
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@Arkandel User validation from Matrix 3 actually helps 3rd Edition. Then, when the ground team goes out to the physical site, the jacked-in decker can simply follow along with RP only (since they already control the security host and can do mostly what they need to as a freebie activity). 2 major runs I successfully GMed have been a pre scene with the runner decker, then during the scheduled game, they were in an RP role due to what they already secured via previous validation while physical/magical dice were the only remainders.
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"Realistic" but yucky. The party is apart.
The decker isn't at physical risk like the party, and the party can't do anything if someone comes after their decker. AND they are now trapped in a hostile system potentially.
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Fallout is based on an alternate version of history. After the bombs that ended World War II for all intents and purposes, Fusion was explored in much greater detail than we have. Fusion cars. Fusion powered robots. Fusion powered wrist computers. History diverged at that point.
The reason Fallout was so similar to the 1950's is because society stagnated at that level, the tech that came out reinforced that level of existence with some modifications.
We also only see one aspect of the world, the United States. We don't know how the rest of the world evolved in Fallout.
Meanwhile, I don't mind wireless rules in ShadowRun, but, I always feel that wired is the most secure option other than someone physically cutting into your line it's hard to intercept in general, which is why they kept it around. That and there is zero noise on a wired connection.
I don't mind a wireless and wired mix, my only problem is that 5th edition was like, no more wired, at all, really.
Mostly though it's about Karma and the dice mechanics. I dislike them. Karma Pool trumps everything in the standard 3rd edition ruleset. Edge is not so powerful.
4th had the problem that you could literally create someone with practically zero possibilities of advancement beyond delta grade ware or similar, your dice could be capped from the very /start/ which meant there was no upwards mobility in a lot of ways.
5th fixes that issue, but introduced the nanovirus that is re-writing people's brains, which is a story element I absolutely hate.
My idea game would be a 2052 set game, story wise, using 5th edition rules. With no Technomancers... which opens up a whole new can of worms. Technomancers are a great idea, but in practice are weaker than deckers. The only way Technomancers stay relevant is their sprites, which catapults them straight to broken power levels if used intelligently.
Regardless, I hope you guys who have fun with third, continue having fun. I had a lot of fun on Denver when third was still relevant, but I can't go back to Karma Bloat, even with proviso's to limit it.
Hello! Long time listener, first time caller...
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@Lithium Now that would be an interesting Fallout game- exploring how, say, Brazil or Italy developed after the apocalypse. Fallout: Verona, anyone? Or Venice. Venice would be a -cool- post-apoc setting...
Provided it managed to stay above water. Otherwise it's just Rapture with poor water pressure control.Vorpal is actually Satan made MU*nifest
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@Vorpal said:
@Lithium Now that would be an interesting Fallout game- exploring how, say, Brazil or Italy developed after the apocalypse. Fallout: Verona, anyone? Or Venice. Venice would be a -cool- post-apoc setting...
Provided it managed to stay above water. Otherwise it's just Rapture with poor water pressure control.So... Rapture?
I'm a rodeo clown.
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@tragedyjones
... BUT WITH CARNIVAL!
Infinitely more terrifying than a Big Daddy.
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The basic problem with Shadowrun (probably the only tabletop RPG I actually like!) is that it's just so inherently 80s. Attempts to update it to account for the massive leaps forward in technology since it was first written make it lose a lot of its charm and "big megacorps gonna get us!" feel, but NOT updating it, or sticking to previous editions, just feels downright loony for a setting that's supposedly in the future. A future without wireless Internet or social media? Nuh uh.
I think I've seen a quote where someone said that Shadowrun feels hyper-futuristic and fifteen years out of date at the same time, and I think that sums it up nicely. But it's my first and only love so I can never really get too down about it.
