MSB: The meta-discussion

[Gingerlily]

@faraday said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@surreality said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@Gingerlily I used to be a mod on the big abortiondebate forum on livejournal. I have seen some shit. <rubs salve on all the scars> So I know precisely what you're saying about it just kinda being how people are on the internets.

Just because it's how people are on 90% of the internet forums out there doesn't mean that's how it should be or how it has to be. It all comes down to what community standards you choose to have and whether you're willing to enforce them.

I think adults should be capable of reining themselves in and providing criticism while still recognizing that the person whose game/system/show/opinion you're bashing is still a person who deserves to be treated with basic respect. It's the difference between saying "I don't like Battlestar games because X, Y Z" instead of "Man, Battlestar games suck. Why would anyone in their right mind want to play that crap?" (I love BSG, for the record.)

It's really not that hard, it just takes effort.

Yes. This is 100 per-cent true, and I was not really considering those things when saying 'forums are forums what can ya do?' Because the truth is they do not HAVE to be that way. The group of people using the forum can set any culture they wish to, if they agree on what that culture is or should be. So totally, MSB could be better. People tossing in nasty insults and personal attacks could be shunned instead of cheered on by a big enough crowd that they continue. The whole pattern of 'I had a shitty experience or interaction but I will get the last word and the last laugh after my MSB post' could be a non issue because the community could decide that is not the kind of thing that interests them. There will always be enough people itchin for dirt or gossip or some good trash talk who jump right on in I think...but you have it called. There does not HAVE to always be that element because people could stop accepting it. We absolutely can always be better

I know for many who were part of the WORA days this seems like a place full of sweetness, but I think to those of us who were not it looks different. As a separate entity with no context, its a site where the trash talking area has the most posts and views.

Maybe someday there will be a Mu* gaming and design discussion forum that has no place for or interest in bashing other people (whether they feel like that bashing is totally legit or not, that is not what I am focusing on here)

Until then this is it. Some people love the place, some loathe it and do not participate, some are kinda lukewarm but still interested in some of the content.

I still think it is neither good nor bad for Mu*ing in general overall. Parts are great for it, others are probably ugly and damaging. That is a super boring conclusion, but it is all I have got.

[Gingerlily]

@Shlappy said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

I could take it or leave it. There are occasionally useful things, but I'm not really a member of the community at large. I'm one of those people that doesn't like the target painted on their head, so I steer clear of a good many of you if I'm honest. I dread the day I do something someone else doesn't like and they run a hate campaign on here for me with their buddies.

So it has its good points and bad points. I think it's more useful for game designers than anything else. That's something I've been gaining interest in learning more about, so it's still a useful tool. If I find a better forum for that, I probably wouldn't have much use for this. Game ads, maybe?

But that's like - just my opinion, man.

Treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself is a quote I have heard somewhere. Most people don't actually relish the pile on. That does not stop people from getting it going, and keeping it going with what appears to be a deep feeling of glee. We can only hope they reflect on that later if being known for personal attacks is not who they really want to be.

[Gingerlily]

@EmmahSue said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@Pandora

The Hog Pit is a bit ugly, a lot cruel, and often for the fierce joy of that cruelty. There's nothing particularly wrong with that (it's not my favorite gin joint, still I've had my posts and responses o'er time), but it's also not something that aids in the... evolution? Growth? of our community at large. It was set opt-in so that it would be a deliberate, conscious choice to take part. "Do I want to do this?" "Yes, click." As gates go, it's not locked, or even particularly proverbially high. It's just a moment of decision to step through, and meanwhile the folks who don't want to participate are relatively clear of the mud.

That was a basically perfect description down to the details. Often for the fierce joy of cruelty. I know some people really deeply believe that it is a necessary service for exposing truths but I think fierce joy of cruelty hits the mark with way more accuracy. Most of the time I opt out of the Pit. Occasionally someone nudges me with a 'but you HAVE to see this and so I click join again and do because suddenly I am curious. Maybe I should focus and make a real decision about what I do and do not want to read, but I have not yet. I don't fling mud myself because I know that is not who I want to be, but watching the mud fling around...eh. Not really what I want out of my web reading time. Will still probably consume in bits and pieces even if it is empty calories that don't even really taste good, like grocery store cupcakes left in the workroom.

None of my opinions on whether the place as a whole is positive or negative or whatever is meant to be a criticim of the site creators, the mods, etc. That a forum for discussing Mu* games and their design methods exist..that is surely a positive. What that forum becomes as a result of how people use it is its own thing.

[surreality]

@Gingerlily said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

Maybe someday there will be a Mu* gaming and design discussion forum that has no place for or interest in bashing other people (whether they feel like that bashing is totally legit or not, that is not what I am focusing on here)

Apparently there is one. Someone passed along the advertisement for it the other day. It's new, so I didn't see any posts there when I signed up.

http://www.mushology.com is it.

Part of the issue that forums have is that one person's constructive criticism is another person's bashing. Some places (and I do not know if that is one of them) utterly forbid anything but 100% positive commentary about the forum's subject, with no negatives or crit allowed. I find those spaces generally useless unless someone wants a place purely to squee about something they're a fan of with like minds (which absolutely has a place), but they're not really a thing for me.

[Gingerlily]

@surreality

It is great that that exists, I hope it takes off.

Agreed that people have different opinions on what bashing is. I know what mine is, but I also know it is not shared by any kind of majority. I feel like it can't be that hard to figure out...we have to offer feedback in other areas of life and generally I feel likr most people don't start with 'Bob you are an idiot, everything you do sucks probably because you are just a worthless, pointless person' That is really crass, implies a major lack of reflection or emotional regulation on the speaker's behalf, and provides no feedback that Bob can use. As we have visited before in this thread, what we often witness here is not an attempt to give feedback but to trash talk those who we feel wronged us or generally dislike for the sheer pleasure of it.

Yet I have also read people discussing how they don't appreciate the negativity and that is why they hold back write some pretty nasty personal stuff themselves. Don't know where the disconnect is for sure, but suspect it is tangled up in the glee of the 'righteous' take down. It doesnt seem mean to us if we think we are helping others by telling them who to hate, who is corrupt, who is useless, and why. Most of the time, there is very little evidence that the effect the ooooh burn would have on its target was considered at all.

[WTFE]

@Derp said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

I think that part of our problem, as a culture, is that we're convinced that there is some One True Right and Only Way to do things.

There is. For me.

We design our games around this idea.

Were I to overcome my distaste for the codebases involved (hint: not gonna happen) I would design my game around the One True Right And Only Way (for me) to do things. Doing otherwise would be idiotic.

And that is not a singular community. That is a creole of different beliefs, cultures, etc, and we come here because we can use a sort of lingua franca to try and reach out to each other.

I've never encountered in my entire life a community that wasn't a creole of different beliefs, cultures, etc. I'd go so far as to say that the very definition of a community involves some amount of diversity. "Community" ≠ "echo chamber".

Given that ... perhaps it's time we tried to figure out how to make it easier for the folks to make their own games …

Part of the problem here is the shitty nature of the code bases. MUSHcode, for example, resists modularization and, to top it all off, comes in three major subtly incompatible dialects.

[surreality]

@Gingerlily said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@surreality

It is great that that exists, I hope it takes off.

Agreed that people have different opinions on what bashing is. I know what mine is, but I also know it is not shared by any kind of majority. I feel like it can't be that hard to figure out...we have to offer feedback in other areas of life and generally I feel likr most people don't start with 'Bob you are an idiot, everything you do sucks probably because you are just a worthless, pointless person' That is really crass, implies a major lack of reflection or emotional regulation on the speaker's behalf, and provides no feedback that Bob can use. As we have visited before in this thread, what we often witness here is not an attempt to give feedback but to trash talk those who we feel wronged us or generally dislike for the sheer pleasure of it.

I really do not see much of what you're describing here at all. Maybe it's just because that was absolutely almost every exchange on WORA, and it is pretty dang different here.

And I say this knowing I have a raging rant of venting right here: http://musoapbox.net/topic/1472/confidence-vs-egotistical-bullshit-the-claim-game-overcompensation-invulnerability-pissing-contests-cults-of-personality-name-dropping-and-so-on?page=1

...and nobody's named there. Behaviors are called out with zero punches pulled and a heck of a lot of vitriol, but I could probably rattle off a half a dozen offenders there for each as all are hardly unique, so they aren't vaguebooking specific targets. It's probably one of the meanest posts on the forum, and what you're describing is simply not at all there.

[faraday]

@EmmahSue said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

The Hog Pit is a bit ugly, a lot cruel, and often for the fierce joy of that cruelty. There's nothing particularly wrong with that....

See that's where we disagree. I think there is something inherently wrong in being purposefully cruel to a person for the fun of it.

Now to what @ThatGuyThere and @surreality have said about everyone having a different measure of what constitutes 'bashing' - of course that's true. Negative feedback will always sting, especially for creative types, but it comes with the territory. You shouldn't have to be afraid of saying "I don't like this" or "I think this is a bad idea."

At the same time, I think there are some pretty universally-agreed-upon lines in the sand, and as far as I can tell MSB routinely and gleefully crosses those lines. If somebody posted something like "Are you high motherfucker?" in a bbs reply on one of my games, they'd get a stern talking-to. If they did things like that repeatedly, they'd be shown the door. Here the worst consequence might be someone else replying: "Dude you're an idiot." Or there might be no consequences at all, and even a cheering section.

But hey, this isn't my forum. I know that my opinion and my standards don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. It is absolutely MSB owners' right to tolerate and even encourage such behavior if they feel it's a good thing. But tying back to @Arkandel's original question, I don't think that has a great effect on the community as a whole. That's just my opinion.

[faraday]

@Derp said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

Given that ... perhaps it's time we tried to figure out how to make it easier for the folks to make their own games when they dissent with the way certain ones are run (despite all the arguments against GOMO foo, it's still the best option for getting more options). I think that we could figure out a way, as a hobby, to make it cheaper, easier, and overall more efficient, rather than trying to find the One Gameplan to Rule Them All.

Double-post because this is a completely unrelated to my last post (and kinda off-topic if someone wants to create a new one), but that's basically the idea behind AresMUSH. When it's finished there will be a pre-configured droplet like what @surreality described to get people up and running with a game in minutes. It's not done yet, but it will be eventually.

[Meg]

@faraday said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

It is absolutely MSB owners' right to tolerate and even encourage such behavior if they feel it's a good thing.

To be fair, MSB owners/admins do not encourage any such behavior. Nor do they discourage it. As ES said in the thread, they provide the framework, we are making MSB what it is. (With some exceptions, of course. Like trolling and the like.)

It does go back to the fact that people calling out shit as it happens isn't a real check. I know I have called out behavior and it goes ignored. Though, I have approached people about behavior and also gotten positive feedback and receptiveness. So I don't know the answer to this.

Do we need a safeword?

[faraday]

@Meg said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

To be fair, MSB owners/admins do not encourage any such behavior. Nor do they discourage it. As ES said in the thread, they provide the framework, we are making MSB what it is. (With some exceptions, of course. Like trolling and the like.)

I respectfully disagree. I believe that having the Hog Pit expressly encourages such behavior, and the absence of moderation tools for anything but the most egregious spambots and trolls IMHO is tacit encouragement to continue. But I understand your POV.

[EmmahSue]

In that allowing can be construed as encouraging (if you don't pull up a weed, you're allowing it to grow in the garden), @faraday isn't wrong. It's a difference of opinion in how hands-on moderators ought to be. @Glitch and I are very hands-off, and that's a discussed decision. We have neither the time, energy, nor interest in getting all up ins on a regular basis for anything other than the egregious stuff. Again, discussed decision.

When the 'do we want to do this' first came up between us, it was because we felt something akin to WORA was a benefit to the community. But we hadn't seen anyone make a go of replacing that wasn't, well... honestly, crazy in their own right. Our community is not full of Nice People (tm). It has its bright points, but it's also got its fair share of assholes. I'm married to @HelloRaptor, ffs. We're attempting to give everyone room to be whatever it is they want to be, while still aiming towards betterment of the hobby.

ES

[EmmahSue]

Also, HR says he's working on the Stanley Parable achievement for MSB. He's not likely to rejoin anytime soon (I believe someone wondered, up above somewhere).

ES

[ThatGuyThere]

@faraday
To me it comes down to the simple thing I care about the idea more than the form it is presented in and in fact prefer the blunt forms.
If i have an idea and it is a bad one, which everybody does at times, I would much rather have someone say "Hey dude that idea is shit and here why...." than have someone say, "Oh that is an interesting idea but I would change these things..." if they say the exact things need to be changes I am much more likely to change them with the first person way of telling me.
Though I will admit this is a cultural thing that transcends mushing more to how people relate to each other in general. For example I would much rather someone tell me "Fuck Off." in a direct manner then resorting to the American South translation of, "Bless your heart."
Forums with enforced politeness I wouldn't even bother to read let alone post on. (Now some readers might very well decide that is a feature not a big but that is beside the point.)
Now I completely agree with you on mot of the post here being unsuitable for BB post on games but he two environments are designed for different things. One a game the purpose is to have fun and provide entertainment for the other players. I place getting along with the other players at a high priority and often do not join in discussion to avoid having hurt feeling develop because those would be detrimental to the purpose of the game. Here the purpose is discussion of ideas and to a lesser extent calling out what we see as wrong on games. I do not care about getting along with people here, though i do with some nor do I avoid the possibility of hard feelings because those in no way prevent discussion.

[Gingerlily]

I have tried to find what I want to focus on here because there is a lot happening and a lot to consider on the stuff people have mentioned.

It is obviously clear that people have very different perceptions regarding what is nasty and pointless and what is criticism that is purposeful. That's not a problem really, people have already covered that the culture of posting is what sets that tone. Not the moderators or site admins or forum names and visibility. What is done here and in what way makes MSB what it is.

I started off confused when there appeared to be a sizable handful of people who did not think MSB had its share of gleeful personal attacks. I feel like I have seen plenty. Some on Hogpit, some on game advertising threads when people wanted to get their digs in. I accept it as part of reading the site or posting on it. Though I have been the target that was a while ago and is not my focus here. I have watched the same pattern repeat over and over. People share legit critiques sure. They also make deliberately hurtful comments. I have seen people make jokes about who they think should see a shrink because hahah burnnn, and then it's time to wait for the high fives and upvotes. I've read people who I have never interacted with add cracks about my complete lack of self awareness and social skills. I have seen other people who are complete strangers to me experience the same pile on pattern. That is a big part of MSB. People can state that readers need thicker skins, or are whiners, or that they deserved every crack made at their expense because they are the worst. I get that those beliefs are very solid in the heads of the MSB community. It does not mean I think its the worst ever and anyone participating is a huge asshole. It is a forum that can be interesting and sometimes enlightening, but also one where some get deep satisfaction from being shitty to other people. Is it because they are serving the greater good, piling on staff members of games that they got frustrated with, and players that they have determined are a blight on all gaming and deserve every insult tossed their way? I can answer that question for myself and make choices about what I want to read or say here. But I know other people have different thoughts.

I do not think mods should police for tone. MSB will pick the tone it wants. I do think all of us would benefit from some reflection on what we write here and why. Then if someone is deciding whether or not to join a particular topic and in what way, it is more natural to understand the reason. At that point, if chasing that pleasure center burst we all get from gossip and insults is the call they make, they can own it. I was told in one thread somewhere about something that I had a complete lack of self awareness. It is highly possible there was a solid point there and reflecting more on what I say and how I say it will do me good. But I am not the only one who ought give that some attention. People do get nasty here. Not every pile on is a public service. Sometimes people join in for the sheer pleasure of it. The evidence is all over the place. The negative stuff does not float into the void every time. Sometimes the targets don't read the forum and have no clue what is being said. Other times they definitely feel the impact of what it tossed at them.

I have no closing statement, I had no thesis. I use MSB sporadically depending on my mood, my state of mind, etc. I do not consider myself a part of the community, just like Shlappy does not
I just don't have the years of shared experience that the core group of posters here does. I have participated in some interesting discussions that I enjoyed, and also been trashed by groups of people which I did not enjoy. That is pretty much the experience offered here. For some it is pretty ugly and petty and pointless, for some it does not offer enough cathartic gossip and mud slinging. Whether or not it is productive or damaging there won't be consensus on. Quite possibly it depends who you are and what you read and post.

[Thenomain]

@EmmahSue said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

Also, HR says he's working on the Stanley Parable achievement for MSB. He's not likely to rejoin anytime soon (I believe someone wondered, up above somewhere).

ES

If we don't see him in three more years (the achievement is five), I will personally drive down there and have lunch with you all. That isn't a threat, that's a promise.

[Miss Demeanor]

@EmmahSue said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

Also, HR says he's working on the Stanley Parable achievement for MSB. He's not likely to rejoin anytime soon (I believe someone wondered, up above somewhere).

ES

Presumably the 'Go outside' achievement? I'm fairly certain its not the one that requires him to spend an entire Tuesday on MSB. XD

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@surreality said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

Apparently there is one. Someone passed along the advertisement for it the other day. It's new, so I didn't see any posts there when I signed up.

http://www.mushology.com is it.

I tried reading this site and quickly became annoyed. The content is lacking and scattershot (there are sci-fi and fantasy games existing that are not on here). But whatever. Such is websites updated by humans. What really annoyed me was this:

"Unfortunately over time the online community of text based RPG is at an all-time low and resting on the edge of extinction. It’s a sad time for those of us that remain dedicated to our writing muses."

There's a lot of RP on Tumblr and dreamwidth and in content spaces the average MUer doesn't interact with. Hell, I'd say there are more MUs I'm interested in playing than there were 5 years ago, though that's extremely hit and miss (I don't think things have gotten worse in the last 5 years, at least). It's myopic and, most of all, it's whiny and martyr-y in a way I find to be a huge turn-off.

My take on the hobby has been that it's not so much dying as evolving in ways that aren't necessarily desirable for us oldbies, and becoming more and more fragmented. Which might not be great in many ways, but it makes me kind of 'Eh' when people talk about being in an 'RP desert.' That attitude is part of the problem.

ETA: What I'd like to see is someone maintaining sites that I do think are useful, like http://mudstats.com/

[surreality]

@Three-Eyed-Crow I'm kinda in the same boat. I hope they do well, since it's obvious a lot of folks still don't like the tone here and may be more comfortable posting there, which means another segment of the MUer population has an outlet/space to share stuff that'll doubtless ultimately cross-pollinate in a positive way, but beyond that, it's one of those 'it is what it is' sorts of things.

I tossed it out there since some of the folks less comfy here might be happier there. There was no content when I checked it out, but since I wanna build stuff, I'm willing to look anywhere for ideas, so why not.

As to all the general stuff about tone... the way people talk here is generally not how they talk on games. This is like the weird, shared water cooler lounge in a building full of fractious companies -- like what you'd end up with in the lobby of a building where, say, the tenants of every floor were all producing vaguely similar things for the same shared market, not necessarily competing with one another, but frequently talking about how their widget works compared to the other guy's widget, or wondering why the widgets on floor 14 are being made in the first place, or how the guy managing the widget design on floor 6 keeps getting away with screwing his secretary after hours on the desk because it's so totally obvious and dang, she's one heck of a screamer, ain't she?

As a friend of mine once put it, "In my profession, 'fuck' is not profanity, it's punctuation." That's as much a thing as the jobs in which a single 'fuck' would have you packing up your desk and scanning the want ads.

I will admit I swear like a sailor everywhere save for when I have to go do an in-person sales show or am actually talking through a commission with a customer, and even have a file up on the in-progress project that says, "Look, people are going to use profanity. Don't assume it automatically means they're trying to be horrible to you because they used a naughty word unless it's directly intended to be insulting and hurtful to you, because no words, whether they are naughty or nice words, are OK for that OOC." Because goddammit, if something is fucking awesome I'm going to call it fucking awesome. Conversely, I am not going to give somebody a pass for calling someone 'an ill-mannered lout of dubious upbringing and education' any more than I would if they called them 'a fucking idiot', because it isn't the choice of language used that makes someone an asshole under these circumstances.

[mietze]

I know some people that are coarse as can be here (though I wouldn't term them mean or anything, but blunt yes.), but in game they are even keeled, polite, respectful, dare I say professional in dealing with others. And there are some people here that talk up positive things that they have a history of crapping all over in game, and can be downright nasty and destructive.

But this isn't a thing unique to here. I've met enough mushers to have folks I adore ooc and RL that I don't click with or relate to in game and vice versa.

what I have enjoyed most is the fact that most people are willing to disclose who they've played. While that has sort of happened on previous boards, it really was so not a safe environment (because of the doxxing and multi platform harassment amongst other things). So it's nice to see that people are willing to share who they've played.