What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?
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@Lotherio said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:
Four Color was an old comic that changed title every issue. One Issue could be Hercules the next could be pulp detective, then the next could be Chilly Willy or Mickey Mouse.
In a twisted way, I'd... almost love to see a game that did this. Make a character, fairly basic with a basic set of abilities, and every so often, some weird event changes the world and suddenly your character is their noir incarnation, or even a cartoon one, as fits the weird change to the world. It'd almost be like any given 'changing channels' episode of a television show. (I'm looking hard at you on this one, Supernatural.)
It would be Very Not So Serious but probably a lot of fun, and likely a dang good characterization exercise for the writer contingent, since you'd be re-imagining your character's presentation (without changing their basics or sheet really) with each paradigm shift.
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:
@Lotherio said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:
Four Color was an old comic that changed title every issue. One Issue could be Hercules the next could be pulp detective, then the next could be Chilly Willy or Mickey Mouse.
In a twisted way, I'd... almost love to see a game that did this. Make a character, fairly basic with a basic set of abilities, and every so often, some weird event changes the world and suddenly your character is their noir incarnation, or even a cartoon one, as fits the weird change to the world. It'd almost be like any given 'changing channels' episode of a television show. (I'm looking hard at you on this one, Supernatural.)
It would be Very Not So Serious but probably a lot of fun, and likely a dang good characterization exercise for the writer contingent, since you'd be re-imagining your character's presentation (without changing their basics or sheet really) with each paradigm shift.
You may want The Strange.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:
@surreality said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:
@Lotherio said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:
Four Color was an old comic that changed title every issue. One Issue could be Hercules the next could be pulp detective, then the next could be Chilly Willy or Mickey Mouse.
In a twisted way, I'd... almost love to see a game that did this. Make a character, fairly basic with a basic set of abilities, and every so often, some weird event changes the world and suddenly your character is their noir incarnation, or even a cartoon one, as fits the weird change to the world. It'd almost be like any given 'changing channels' episode of a television show. (I'm looking hard at you on this one, Supernatural.)
It would be Very Not So Serious but probably a lot of fun, and likely a dang good characterization exercise for the writer contingent, since you'd be re-imagining your character's presentation (without changing their basics or sheet really) with each paradigm shift.
You may want The Strange.
I'd be up for either or any of these, in an OTT sort of fashion as Mu*-wide seems a bit tricky for maintenance. A reincarnation of Dragonlance around 2K or so tried doing episodes of time, where there was some major conflict played out as long as needed; a few weeks, a month, up to a year. Then it jumped forward a generation or three to the next conflict, with the PC heroes being legend and the new chars building off that history. Different, but changing. Staff realized eventually it was a lot of effort for little reward eventually.
Then again, could just have a set time in one shift. One ST/Player sets up theme and such for the shift the month before, then runs as needed for the month. While they're running, the next one can start planning the shift for next month. I'm a fan of Mu*'s that present as a system for OTT style gaming, just its never gotten fully popular (yes, I still log into Gateway sometimes).
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@Tempest said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:
Didn't read all this, but something that grinds my gears about Superhero/comic games....
Do not let one person app multiple A+++++ list characters. The guy who plays Wolverine does not need to also play Batman. He DEFINITELY doesn't need to also play Spider-Man on top of those two.
Yeah, agreed. On the one superhero game I've played on one guy had Superman, Deadpool and... I forget, the Flash I think?
That's just greedy. Spread the wealth - plus it destroys teams, since by definition you can't have more than one major member show up at the same time.
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@fatefan said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:
So, it seems to be pretty loud and clear that (1) OC-focused games are the way to go (I know some said OC-emphasized, but let's go all in on that regard, for now) and (2) there should be a clear and consistent theme/tone for the game.
So, if you don't mind me asking another question: is there a preferable type of comic environment/atmosphere? That is...
- "Four color" with brightly colored spandex-clad heroes
- "Street-level" pulp/noir with low-powered or unpowered vigilantes
- High-concept, globally impacting paragons
- Something else entirely
I would vote either one or three, even though on superhero games I tend to play non-powered types they are definitely more in-line with Solo Avengers era Hawkeye with the bright purple and trick arrows then anything that is normally considered street level.
Though I do loves me some high powered world shaking stuff, a la Morrison's run on JLA, whcih also had my favorite version of Batman and allowed other non-powered folks to have a significant impact. (Huntress and Oracle most prominently but also Catwoman in her brief appearance. ) -
The reason people get confused as to what 'Four Color' is, is because a lot of game books have described it as SuperMan and Captain America as the icons of Four Color comics. These are the straight laced black and white good and evil white hats of the comic book world back then, and four color was chosen to represent that.
Personally I think you should allow for a variety of character types and concepts because (/especially/ with OC's) what can catch people's attention and interest will vary wildly based upon the person, or even the ideas at the time.
So I'd like a game that allowed everything, conceptually, and then you'd organize plots based on the scene.
You could have set 'Arena's' where it'd be like Street/City/Country/Global/Cosmic and you can organize scenes/plots/story arcs that way without having to worry about why the SuperMan equivalent is slumming in the ghetto where street guys are dealing with thugs with guns.
Anytime you do a game though that has a system you have to take into account that there is no real writer's fiat. Why does Batman survive against people who can fuck up SuperMan? Cuz he's got plot armor from here to hades. Reverse Flash could snap Batman's neck before he could even blink, Black Adam would just squish Batman... yet none of this ever happens because of writer's fiat and plot armor.
This is what some people mean by tone and sticking to it, is there real risk to the characters or is it more consent based? Is it more 'realistic' or is it like 3e M&M where you can't even kill a nameless mook by hitting them with a bus, it just knocks them out.
These are all choices that are going to have to be made, some will appeal to some and not to others.
Personally I want to see a gritty game with real consequences. I don't want to see the Nightwing or Batman equivalent get hit by Thor and just get knocked out unless that's what the God was intending to do.
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The "four color" descriptor, as I understand it, was initially meant to distinguish comic books (printed in CMYK) from black-and-white pulps/magazines.
At any rate, that's an excellent point about needing to implement a system that keeps things "consistent" across encounters/scenes/whatever so that it's not all ultimately just a matter of consent (as there already exist several such games) to keep a non-powered person from getting pulverized by a much more powerful one. And, of course, this means using a system that keeps PCs pretty balanced so that one ultra-powerful person doesn't stand separate from everyone else.
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@fatefan said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:
The "four color" descriptor, as I understand it, was initially meant to distinguish comic books (printed in CMYK) from black-and-white pulps/magazines.
That was the initial use and meaning, though as this thread shows that has diverged.
As a self professed comic nerd who talk about comics with diverse groups of people I have heard it used both way that it has been in this thread frequently.
Interesting note the four color process is why Hulk is green. Marvel had him gray initially but could not get a consistent looking gray so they changed it to green in his second issue. Much the same thing happened with Ironman as well as his original gray armor was quickly turned gold. -
@ThatGuyThere Actually Stan Lee also said that Green was simply /cheaper/ than Grey was to make at the time, so it was more cost efficient to print him as green rather than grey
They both likely played a big part in the decision.The original hulk was also more frankensteinesque in appearance as well as far as rectangular shaped head and whatnot.
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I was looking through the ~2003 Marvel Universe RPG at the bidding system they used, but since it appears that Venture City's power rules have been added to the Fate SRD (http://fate-srd.com/venture-city), I'm leaning even more toward Fate/VC. I recognize that it may not be crunchy enough to distinguish between various power levels, though, which is the issue that's keeping me from embracing it wholeheartedly.
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@fatefan Fate is better than pure consent imho, but, I prefer more crunch.
Now the good thing about Fate is you /can/ make it more crunchy with some alterations to the system. Fate is really easily modified, that's one of it's strengths.
The real trick is making it balance out cost wise. Powers need to be better than stunts, but there has to be a place for the pure but incredibly skilled human character as well if you're going with that wide ranging of a theme.
It can be done for sure.
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I would be interested in seeing how well fate holds up in a superhero games. I do have the VC pdf but my only hands on Fate experience was in running a Star Wars table top with it. Which it worked very well for but that was an easy call since it was designed for pulp-y stuff which is one of the big inspirations for Star Wars.
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What would a superhero game need to do to bring in more people or a bigger base, a second answer:
Give the players something to do.
That's about it.
âIf you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.â
â Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Lithium said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:
@fatefan Fate is better than pure consent imho, but, I prefer more crunch.
Now the good thing about Fate is you /can/ make it more crunchy with some alterations to the system. Fate is really easily modified, that's one of it's strengths.
The real trick is making it balance out cost wise. Powers need to be better than stunts, but there has to be a place for the pure but incredibly skilled human character as well if you're going with that wide ranging of a theme.
It can be done for sure.
Something interesting I read here:
http://www.therobotsvoice.com/2013/06/the_10_best_superhero_role_playing_games.phpQuote about Marval Sage:
"When I finally opened up the box and played this game for the first time, I was amazed. Here was a game that finally answered one of the most difficult questions to answer in all of comics, âwhy do Thor, Iron Man, Hercules, Wonder Man, the Vision, and heaven knows what other epically powerful superheroes even bother to hang out with Captain America?â SAGAâs answer is quite simple. Those other heroes might have super powers to spare, but Cap has the cream and the clearâŚI meanâŚwell he has those, but heâs also got âEdge.â The gameâs task resolution mechanic takes into account how experienced a character is in a way that allows Cap to keep up and excel without requiring the game to give him superhuman physical strength and agility. Not any more strength and agility that any of us couldnât acquire through the Super Soldier Steroids, anyway. It was an elegant solution. "Then when it's all over and the rest of you are ready for Dead Animal Pickup, I'm gonna go balls deep into Dahl. But only because she asked me to. Sweet-like. - Riddick (2013)
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@Thenomain said in What would a superhero game need to be/do to bring in a new player base?:
What would a superhero game need to do to bring in more people or a bigger base, a second answer:
Give the players something to do.
That's about it.
I honestly wish it was that easy. In my most recent foray into running a superhero game, Empire Bay, we had a ton of plots started up with people attempting to run scenes on these plots on a regular basis. On top of these regular scenes we had leads left dangling for people to look into at their leisure just by contacting staff. Now what it led to?
Nothing.
People kept making excuses to not show up to the regular scenes, we received not one single request to look into the dangled leads we had put out, nothing. I felt bad for the guy who was really spearheading these things, he put a ton of work into it and nothing came from it.
I'm not sure what the answer it but just creating things for players to do isn't it.
My suggestion? Create the game YOU want to play at, find a small number of players that share that dream, and have fun. If it grows and you get a ton of players, great! If not? Well, at least you and that small core group of people are having fun.
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I wish it was that easy too, tho it does make me think. What did they say they wanted? What brought them there?
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@ThatOneDude That system is absolute shit imho. Marvel Saga is junk because it is designed around playing already created characters only, at least the book I have, you just arbitrarily give dice to different stats based on what the GM thinks.
The system is also so lack of crunch as to practically be GM fiat the whole way through. I'd rather a game be Amber Diceless RPG adapted over than use Marvel Saga system personally.
Just goes to show that there's no one system to rule them all.
I also don't believe there shouldn't be situations where Cap isn't as effective as Thor, or Vision, or Wonder Man, or Hercules, or She Hulk, or Hawk Eye, or whatever.
'Keeping up' is not something that should be handled /mechanically/. It is something that should be happened at the /Story Telling/ level. Not every situation is going to allow everyone to shine, and it shouldn't. There are situations where Cap shines, there are situations where the other Avengers shine more.
That is the way it should be.
Any system that tries to allow everyone to shine in every situation is going to be bland and uninteresting, because it won't matter /who/ you bring, there will always be enough dice to get the job done.
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You can't expect a bunch of strangers to behave as a team and function as a well oiled machine and work things out together and push through the plots together.
Empire Bay had /1/ staffer. 1. I've yet to see a /single/ MU* work with just a single staffer because of sheer time constraints.
Not everyone can make the 'scheduled' times, not everyone is interested in the same stories, not everyone's characters even have the same drive and focus to /get/ involved in many stories.
A game needs staff as much as it needs players, staff to help guide players, to run stuff, to just answer questions without waiting for an @mail to get answered, or a job to get processed.
With only one staffer it can feel more like play by post than it does anything else because it's just social RP in between waiting for mails/requests to get answered, or if you're lucky enough to be able to make a scheduled scene that the /1/ staffer can run.
Empire Bay was understaffed. That simple. Once on the grid there was no real direction at all other than put in a request to check up on one lead or another... which doesn't really make for a lot of RP opportunities while waiting.
Hello! Long time listener, first time caller...
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@Lithium
I'll reply to say that once again you open your mouth and have no idea what you're talking about. -
@ZombieGenesis That's funny. Cuz I was approved there, and played there... but I guess my experiences are all completely false.
