The Apology Thread

TiredEwok · Nov 24, 2016, 12:51 AM

Pretty much, yes.

Tinuviel · Nov 24, 2016, 2:53 AM

Thenomain · Nov 24, 2016, 2:54 AM

Is that where my pipe went?

Tinuviel · Nov 24, 2016, 2:54 AM

@Thenomain Apparently so! I was going to use a book or something for the sigil, but I found the pipe and felt that it was more appropriate.

silentsophia · Nov 25, 2016, 1:48 AM

I am sorry I was so batshit insane for a time.
I am sorry I was so passive aggressive and jealous of people far better than me.

I just don't know. Sometimes, I wonder if it's wise or healthy for me to be in the hobby.

Warma Sheen · Nov 26, 2016, 8:53 AM

Interesting thread.

I wanted to do one of these and then realized my apology would sound like one of those not-so-genuine ones. I didn't understand the community for a long time when I started MUSHing. I played online the way I played at tabletops and LARPs. We played hard, competitive, and to theme. And that was really fun. But it wasn't the way other people on MU*s were expecting to play. And that caused some conflict.

But I don't think that's something to apologize for. I had certain experiences and expectations and other people had different ones. That's life. Not everyone agrees. Trying to craft that into an apology would definitely be pandering to people.

And yet some people want to be pandered to. And others want to see people humble themselves.

It is an interesting thread.

surreality · Nov 26, 2016, 9:07 AM

@Warma-Sheen said in The Apology Thread:

I didn't understand the community for a long time when I started MUSHing. I played online the way I played at tabletops and LARPs. We played hard, competitive, and to theme. And that was really fun. But it wasn't the way other people on MU*s were expecting to play. And that caused some conflict.

I think this is something that the community, collectively, could be a lot better about, too. It is full of a lot of unspoken 'how things are done' that serves as a major barrier to new folks joining in and creator of conflicts that need never happen.

There are probably a lot of new players we all owe apologies for expecting them to automatically acclimate to a hobby culture that has evolved a lot of quirks that have come to be expectations over its lifetime.

Auspice · Nov 26, 2016, 2:24 PM

Can we mention apologies we want?

I want an apology from the guy who, many years ago, tried to lecture me on proper use of it's/its and did so incorrectly. He was a snotty bastard about his improper use of grammar.

(Yes, I am being utterly facetious here. :P)

WTFE · Nov 26, 2016, 2:30 PM

@Auspice said in The Apology Thread:

Can we mention apologies we want?

I want an apology from the guy who, many years ago, tried to lecture me on proper use of it's/its and did so incorrectly. He was a snotty bastard about his improper use of grammar.

(Yes, I am being utterly facetious here. :P)

Aw, shit man! I SAID I was sorry dozens of times since. Now you have to make it public!?

Auspice · Nov 26, 2016, 3:20 PM

@WTFE said in The Apology Thread:

@Auspice said in The Apology Thread:

Can we mention apologies we want?

I want an apology from the guy who, many years ago, tried to lecture me on proper use of it's/its and did so incorrectly. He was a snotty bastard about his improper use of grammar.

(Yes, I am being utterly facetious here. :P)

Aw, shit man! I SAID I was sorry dozens of times since. Now you have to make it public!?

I need you to prostrate before the whole of the (MU*ing) world!

WTFE · Nov 26, 2016, 3:21 PM

@Auspice Isn't that what this whole thread here has turned into?

Kanye Qwest · Nov 26, 2016, 4:39 PM

@surreality said in The Apology Thread:

I think this is something that the community, collectively, could be a lot better about, too. It is full of a lot of unspoken 'how things are done' that serves as a major barrier to new folks joining in and creator of conflicts that need never happen.

There are probably a lot of new players we all owe apologies for expecting them to automatically acclimate to a hobby culture that has evolved a lot of quirks that have come to be expectations over its lifetime.

Agree, a lot. That's a lot of the reasoning behind the way we do things on Arx. Even though there's a lot of code and thus a big learning curve, we very much try to keep the power of policing players out of player hands, because when games are like that there's a lot of low level snobbery and impatient correction that are VERY unwelcoming to new people.

ThatGuyThere · Nov 26, 2016, 9:33 PM

@Warma-Sheen said in The Apology Thread:

But I don't think that's something to apologize for. I had certain experiences and expectations and other people had different ones. That's life. Not everyone agrees. Trying to craft that into an apology would definitely be pandering to people.

If you don't think it is something to apologize for why would you want to craft an apology for it? That is the type of behavior that completely devalues apologies in general.

I do apologize for things I regret and feel sorry for but there are things I have done that others have thought horrible that I do not think I was wrong on and while I will acknowledge that I might have erred I would never apologize for those things. To do so would be dishonest which I feel I would then have to apologize for oddly enough.

Warma Sheen · Nov 27, 2016, 1:17 AM

@ThatGuyThere Well that was the point. My first instinct was to apologize, because I did feel bad that there was conflict OOCly. But then I realized that despite regretting the conflict, there was really nothing to apologize for. I think there's a few things that have ended up here in this thread that people really don't feel the need to apologize for but they did so anyway for whatever reason. But then when it comes off as fake it does more harm than good. Some people have already been called out for that.

So mine was an regret-expressed non-apology.

gasket · Nov 27, 2016, 2:13 AM

@Warma-Sheen

I dunno. Expressing regret that you maybe got things wrong (according to The Collective Opinion Of Right And Wrong) or accidentally stepped on toes shouldn't ever be a bad thing. It shows you're thoughtful about making sure you're playing WITH others instead of AGAINST them, even if the definition of that turned out different between your hobbies and you didn't realize it until later.

There are some people on here who get off on tearing others into bloody ribbons just because they can. Moderating your behaviour because of them - other than 'note to self, never be like this person, ever' - would be kinda backwards.

mietze · Nov 27, 2016, 4:07 AM

I am all for apologizing about past behavior that has hurt/disrespected people. But when it's accompanied with a hefty dose of "I'm sorry you're so lame," it come across as an attack. Same with the "I'm sorry I'm the worst person ever to walk to earth" bullshit. Maybe this is just the fact that I was raised by a narcisstic alcoholic asshole, but apologies made in that manner can be actual attacks or slams. I've seen it quite a bit in gaming, RL, you name it. It's why I think if you want to come across as genuine apology (vs confessions of being a dick once upon a time, hey, I think we've all been there), just saying "I'm sorry" does not invalidate dickishness afterwards.

Public apologies that are non specific (vs confessions) also run the risk of anger by other folks who feel similarly wronged by that person feeling like they're getting a second slap when that's not acknowledged. (I see that more often online than RL), mostly because other people who have been subjected to the behavior physically standing in the room are not as easily overlooked either accidentally or on purpose.

Apologies are by their nature risky. You are extending vulnerability by acknowledging your role in harming (shallow to deep) someone else. There is no guarantee of acceptance. It's not a face saving measure. Sometimes it opens up old wounds. I think sometimes folks are not always aware of that. But I do think that's why a "but" or "if" apology makes many people so angry again.

Anyway, just my thoughts as someone who's had to apologize many many times online and RL to a wide variety of people,with results ranging from being told in no uncertain terms id never be welcome in that person's life again, to a repair and strengthening of a vital relationship and most often of the dull "thanks I appreciate that" inbetween.

Apos · Nov 27, 2016, 4:57 AM

@Warma-Sheen I find saying, 'I wish I had handled that better, and I regret how it went down' is unobjectionable and usually helps mend fences. It's, 'but here's why I thought you were in the wrong and your part in why it went bad' is the part that just pisses people off, and just comes across as someone trying to justify the dumb shit they did.

Warma Sheen · Nov 27, 2016, 5:00 PM

@gasket said in The Apology Thread:

I dunno. Expressing regret that you maybe got things wrong (according to The Collective Opinion Of Right And Wrong) or accidentally stepped on toes shouldn't ever be a bad thing. It shows you're thoughtful about making sure you're playing WITH others instead of AGAINST them, even if the definition of that turned out different between your hobbies and you didn't realize it until later.

If that's really what you think, then sure. Otherwise, its just pandering and placating which is blatant emotional manipulation if it is done well and it comes off fake and insulting if done poorly - which is what you see in some of the posts in the thread and what people have called them out on.

@Apos That's why apologies are sometimes better left unsaid. There's a big difference between having regrets and apologizing.

GangOfDolls · Nov 27, 2016, 7:26 PM

An apology isn't for the person who fucked up, to make them feel better or undo what happened. That's not the point. The apology is for the person who was on the receiving end of the consequences of someone else's behavior but there's merit in someone making an attempt.

When people fuck up, they should apologize. They don't as much they should, which is a shame. But just because someone apologizes doesn't mean the receiver has to accept. I would rather the door be left open to people who are making an attempt for the benefit of the person receiving with the understanding that no one has to say 'thanks, I accept' on the other side.

Arkandel · Nov 27, 2016, 9:19 PM

@GangOfDolls said in The Apology Thread:

An apology isn't for the person who fucked up, to make them feel better or undo what happened. That's not the point.

I dunno. I think, at a certain point, it's for both. There's something cathartic about admitting you fucked up, coming clean about it, taking whatever consequences are attached to that and moving on with your life.

Guilt is a burden.