Star Wars: Insurgency

[TiredEwok]

@bored

I guess it's a matter of seeing what happens.

[bored]

@gasket Obviously there's a lot of overlap of these two issues, yeah, although each has some unique characteristics. With FCs, it's not just the issue of stats (although it's often that also), but also the implicit degree of spotlight time, plot shield, etc that comes with being who they are.

@ixokai said in Star Wars: Insurgency:

I'll point out that our FC's do not get any special privileges. If they want to be a leader in the rebellion (like, Leia), she pays for it. If an OC wants to be a leader in the Rebellion too, they pay for it. Our OC's are exactly in line with the FC's, power wise. If someone apps a Tier 1 Vader, he will have the exact same amount of points, powers and privileges as someone else apping a random Tier 1 Sith.

Being a fate game, this is somewhat easier but also all a bit wishy-washy since I assume the 'cost' is that they have an aspect 'Rebel General' or something like that, which is worth either a) exactly as much as any other vaguely officer-y aspect, or b) whatever you decide it's worth in the totally arbitrary and hard-to-quantify terms above (spotlight, leadership pecking order, plot shield, etc). Which is why I really find it hard to trust the whole thing. Even if Leia doesn't get better stats than Rebel Officer #132, Leia is Leia.

Put another way, when I hear stories about Luke getting killed in normal combat and Vader getting demoted and locked in a box somewhere because the Imperial officer corps is tired of him choking their Admirals, I'll believe you that it's really equal... but then still probably not want to play in a universe where Vader is a bitch. Double edge sword there, I guess.

[ixokai]

There's been some misunderstandings we'd like to clarify.

FC and OC have the exact same number of points to build their characters. FC's do not get a single point or ability that is not available to everyone else.

We have a concept called Tiers, which grant extra refresh to support concepts that are 'heavier' -- but this has nothing at all to do with FC vs OC's. This is an initial bonus, but the same Refresh Cap applies to everyone so its a leg up to start with, but not a permanent advantage.

All Tier 1 characters have the same amount of refresh, the same number of abilities and point spread. All Tier 3 characters have the same amount of refresh, the same number of abilities and point spreads. There is an exception, Tier 4, which IS weaker then others: this is for certain concepts who the basic numbers make too powerful. Grunt level Stormtroopers, for example.

A Tier 1 FC and a Tier 1 OC have the exact same amount of power and abilities.

Now, we do state in 'news refresh' that we prefer people not to have a lot of refresh. You don't need it: GM's will offer compels to get you more Fate Points as scenes progress. We think 3-4 refresh after all the buys is ideal, and anyone 5+ over -- be they a FC or an OC -- we talk to in order to encourage to either drop a tier level or consider buying more stunts or equipment to make yourself more powerful.

This isn't about making OC's "weaker" then FC's, because, again-- FCs and OCs have the same exact rules and numbers. We encouraged Luke to buy more stuff to lower his refresh from what he originally had. We encourage OCs and FCs alike to try to get around to 3-4, which we consider the ideal point to be able to be awesome but still participate in the important Fate Point Economy (where you are encouraged by not having effectively infinite fate points to accept compels from GM's except where it really matters to you)

Finally, though we encourage a certain level of fate points, we allow you to make this decision after we give our advice. If someone wants to make a T1 and never buy a thing and hoard all the refresh ever, they can. We think that is ultimately not fun, because GM Compels are a major way that scenes are kept interesting, but it is your decision to make.

[ixokai]

@bored said in Star Wars: Insurgency:

@ixokai said in Star Wars: Insurgency:

I'll point out that our FC's do not get any special privileges. If they want to be a leader in the rebellion (like, Leia), she pays for it. If an OC wants to be a leader in the Rebellion too, they pay for it. Our OC's are exactly in line with the FC's, power wise. If someone apps a Tier 1 Vader, he will have the exact same amount of points, powers and privileges as someone else apping a random Tier 1 Sith.

Being a fate game, this is somewhat easier but also all a bit wishy-washy since I assume the 'cost' is that they have an aspect 'Rebel General' or something like that, which is worth either a) exactly as much as any other vaguely officer-y aspect, or b) whatever you decide it's worth in the totally arbitrary and hard-to-quantify terms above (spotlight, leadership pecking order, plot shield, etc). Which is why I really find it hard to trust the whole thing. Even if Leia doesn't get better stats than Rebel Officer #132, Leia is Leia.

The cost of leadership (and many extras in general) is fundamentally subjective, yes, but I would point out as an open sheet game, we are not hiding anything from anyone. Everyone can see what we charge everyone for everything they buy. On some things we have crystal clear rules: Special Weapons and Armor that grant automatic damage and mitigation cost refresh equal to their rating. On other things, like organization influence/leadership, its a bit vague, and we're working on it.

We're also alpha and no stats are final, and we'll look at defining orgs and influence more clearly as time goes on.

Put another way, when I hear stories about Luke getting killed in normal combat and Vader getting demoted and locked in a box somewhere because the Imperial officer corps is tired of him choking their Admirals, I'll believe you that it's really equal... but then still probably not want to play in a universe where Vader is a bitch. Double edge sword there, I guess.

I think this comes down to: there's no pleasing you It's not the game for you and that's fine.

We were well aware that some people would not be willing to play on a game with FC's, but that's something we simply are not going to change.

[bored]

@ixokai said in Star Wars: Insurgency:

I think this comes down to: there's no pleasing you It's not the game for you and that's fine.

Well yes, I think I made this pretty clear to begin with, nor am I expecting you to please me, but rather just discussing game design. To me, FCs are a fundamental, unsolvable problem. You could 'fix' all of the issues very simply by not having them, and all experience and evidence I've ever seen tells me your game would be better for it, but you are set on having them, and that is that.

I'll still look forward to the proposed Luke-Rodian bukkake logs to make it to the wiki, always good fun!

[tangent]

@bored I'll be sure to link them here after they occur for the benefit of you, the community, and mankind.

[fatefan]

@ixokai said in Star Wars: Insurgency:

If someone wants to make a T1 and never buy a thing and hoard all the refresh ever, they can. We think that is ultimately not fun, because GM Compels are a major way that scenes are kept interesting

As a big fan of Fate, I just wanted to point out that there's a significant difference between having a lot of refresh available and "hoard[ing]" it.

Players have the opportunity to reject GM compels if they can afford it, and players can also spend Fate to create & invoke any number of player/scene aspects if they can afford it.

If the staff would rather players not have this option--such as by leaning heavily instead on a large number of stunts & extras, so be it, but it seems to put some hard limits on how the system functions.

[Arkandel]

I feel that's one of the reasons people don't make games. It's the rampant preemptive criticism. No this can't work, no this will end in tears and bukkake. No!

If these guys fuck up I'll be here with the gasoline. If there are problems maybe we can offer solutions. If we're discussing game design before the fact then that's fine, let's do that - constructively.

But blasting them before they even open or do anything with open, unbrindled cynicism... damn, MSB. Sometimes you can see WORA between the lines.

[fatefan]

@Arkandel My apologies if my post seemed like overly negative criticism. It wasn't my intent--I just thought it could be useful to point out that the Fate point economy (including a player who might have a lot of initial refresh each scene) is meant to work in such a way as to provide a different set of options/tools than a large set of stunts/extras/etc.

[Ganymede]

@Arkandel said in Star Wars: Insurgency:

I feel that's one of the reasons people don't make games. It's the rampant preemptive criticism.

You say this like pre-emptive criticism is a bad thing.

Clearly, the staff here have thought through the problems. This is a good sign. If anything, knowing that @TNP and @ixolai are on board is a reassuring thing.

If an advertised game cannot survive the pre-emptive criticism, then it really needs to be thought through again.

[Arkandel]

@fatefan said in Star Wars: Insurgency:

@Arkandel My apologies if my post seemed like overly negative criticism.

No, it was the bukkake part that did it for me.

Even if a system is flawed - as long as those potential flaws are acknowledged and staff think they are worth the risk - there's no need for us to assume the very worst case scenario is simply inevitable. Yes, there are reasons to want to play Luke Skywalker that don't involve sperm showers, you know what I mean?

[Akurel]

@Arkandel But it is the funniest, if most disturbing one.

[Faceless]

@Akurel pretty much.

Do I think the game can work? Sure. In fact, my biggest issue is with the one planet aspect. The FC presence is a thing, one which I've saw fail time and time again in the past. In nearly two decades of various Star Wars games, I can say I've not saw it work out with 100% success. Moderate? Sure. Full? No. In fact, a recent conversation about another Star Wars game had mention of how some staffer's special snowflake character got hitched to Jabba the Hutt(the FC) so she could become "Empress" of a terraformed Tatooine. So, yeah.

No, my biggest qualm is with the whole rebel cell on Corellia thing. There's a reason that the Rebel Alliance kept largely on the backwater planets; safety. Yavin, Hoth, Dantooine(in mention), Sullust(used as a rally point), and all the EU mentions. The Rebellion runs, that's what they do. On a planet like Corellia, I imagine they'd be discovered within a few days. Star Wars Rebels provides evidence that a planet-based insurgency on a world with a moderate to heavy Imperial presence would quickly be put on it's heels and would have to flee; and that's on a relatively minor planet, by all appearances. The Rebellion runs, it's their thing. That too, of course, can be overcome. It only requires a level of disbelief suspension that I can't thoroughly wrap my head around. So that means the game is not for me, which does not mean it's not for others, and that's okay.

[Rucket]

While I agree with a lot of the comments here about FCs.

Personally I see FATE and go, "Meh." There are several systems already out there for Star Wars and they are far more interesting. To each their own though, I guess.

[TNP]

Speaking only for myself, I was expecting critique when I suggested a couple weeks ago that we post an ad here even before we were ready to give out the address. Players here have a larger combined history of game play than many RPG companies and a Star Wars Fate game is not something that's been made into a Mu* before to my knowledge. In fact, while someone did take the Star Wars setting and 'Fate-ized' it,we felt it didn't really handle the Force sufficiently so we're making up the mechanics ourselves. So other perspective can be useful, though not necessarily agreed with.

Re: Fate. I agree. But some people love it for some reason.

Re: FCs. I agree. But some people love them. We'll try to make sure everyone are the stars and not just the canon characters.

Re: Rebels Run. I think this is a good point. To me, and I do intend on bringing it up just to verify my assumptions, I always thought of the Rebel presence on Corellia as more of an administrative/recruiting center. Dangerous, yes but the Rebellion is very much in the early David vs Goliath stages and they need backers and funding. There are no squadrons of X-Wings being launched from Crescent City. There are instead seemingly unaligned freighters and transports taking the rebels on and off planet. So 'Rebel Base' does not mean something like what was seen on Hoth in Empire. That is elsewhere.

Edited to add: From news theme:

Our story takes place primarily on the planet of Corellia during the height of the Rebellion. The Alliance has sent a platoon of spies to the strategic core world in hopes of inciting a revolt against Imperial rule.

[ThatGuyThere]

@bored said in Star Wars: Insurgency:

still probably not want to play in a universe where Vader is a bitch. Double edge sword there, I guess.

Then you don't want to play in any Starwars universe?
Lets face it Vader is a fuck up through the first trilogy for the most part and in the prequels he mostly flounces and whines. The only two things he really has going for him are a cool outfit and James Earl Jones' voice.

[Ganymede]

@ThatGuyThere said in Star Wars: Insurgency:

Lets face it Vader is a fuck up through the first trilogy for the most part and in the prequels he mostly flounces and whines. The only two things he really has going for him are a cool outfit and James Earl Jones' voice.

Now that I have kids, I have a better appreciation for the character.

[surreality]

@Arkandel @Ganymede It is weird that I agree with both of you at once on a subject that you're on opposite ends of... again, I suppose.

I think there's a difference between constructive criticism and outright bashing that is relevant here, though -- and they aren't really the same thing. Yeah, you can dig through the bashing to try to find something useful, but it isn't always there.

A lot of folks seem to expect that if so much as a single question is asked, suddenly it's design-by-committee on the whole. (And no one on the committee agrees about 95% of anything.) They're also generally only working from the one question without much comprehension of the whole. That makes the criticism a little less useful, too.

(Speaking of which, I need to revive a thread when this damn painkiller wears off a tad and I'm not typing in a brain fog. )

[Ghost]

If FCs are no different, even stats-wise from OCs, then why differentiate between the two? Why apply for FCs? Why do FCs typically get handed off to friends of staff and favored players?

If there is no difference, stats-wise, between FCs and OCs, then what is the point?

The answer:
FCs come prepackaged with guaranteed roleplay opportunities and "main character" time in plots. FCs are automatically roped into game metaplot, whereas OCs need to find their own roleplay and means to being roped into (and more importantly, relevance in) metaplot

This is why people hate FCs. Their character sheets are irrelevant to the guarantee of importance, activity, and plot effectiveness, and many MUers feel as if they need to struggle to be important to metaplot on most games.

[TNP]

@Ghost said in Star Wars: Insurgency:

The answer:
FCs come prepackaged with guaranteed roleplay opportunities and "main character" time in plots. FCs are automatically roped into game metaplot, whereas OCs need to find their own roleplay and means to being roped into (and more importantly, relevance in) metaplot

This would be wrong. Why FCs? Because some people want to play Luke or Leia or Han. Some people want to play Superman or Spiderman or Thor. I never have. That doesn't make those who do want to wrong.

Plots focused on the Rebellion will be for Rebel PCs, not Rebel FCs and others. If someone apps an OC X-Wing pilot who survived the assault on the Death Star alongside Luke, then that is what he shall be and that is what game 'history' shall be. The OC will have just as many opportunities as Luke to get involved. All OCs will.

Now, you can believe that or not. We're going to do our best to make sure that's the case. If you don't believe that, I'm not going to argue. Don't come play. Please, don't come play. But don't call us liars either. Go make a thread in the Hog Pit to do that but at least wait till you have evidence. Don't be Trump.