New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback

[ThatOneDude]

@Lithium said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

@Ominous That's the thing, there's a lot of different systems but /none/ of them really translate to MU* format well. You can hack Fate or use one of the Fate super settings, that works well for cinematic stuff. You can go the opposite route and go with say, Hero System.

Honestly... if you can successfully patch afflictions, and fix the broken feats that totally alter your power scale... then M&M isn't /bad/ per se.

As for changing the world, this needs to be possible. Nothing is more game killing for a super hero game (for me) than knowing that no matter what I do... it doesn't matter to the game world at all.

I'm curious about this game breaking part of the rules and the example used. This is honestly just an honest question as I don't know the system in use. Your example sounded like a Superman or like character (hits hard and can take a hit). Wouldn't the balance be a like character? I mean the equalizer for Batman vs Superman is leveraging superman's weakness but with out that one material it's not a "fair fight". But if you stand Superman against someone with like power it changes things.

[Runescryer]

@Ominous said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

I kind of want to make an OC villain, The Red Scare - a Soviet Mr. Incredible who is angry at Russia's betrayal of communism and has come to smack the US around in his red spandex.

Hey, that's fine with me Trope characters can be fun

[Runescryer]

@ThatOneDude said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

@Lithium said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

@Ominous That's the thing, there's a lot of different systems but /none/ of them really translate to MU* format well. You can hack Fate or use one of the Fate super settings, that works well for cinematic stuff. You can go the opposite route and go with say, Hero System.

Honestly... if you can successfully patch afflictions, and fix the broken feats that totally alter your power scale... then M&M isn't /bad/ per se.

As for changing the world, this needs to be possible. Nothing is more game killing for a super hero game (for me) than knowing that no matter what I do... it doesn't matter to the game world at all.

I'm curious about this game breaking part of the rules and the example used. This is honestly just an honest question as I don't know the system in use. Your example sounded like a Superman or like character (hits hard and can take a hit). Wouldn't the balance be a like character? I mean the equalizer for Batman vs Superman is leveraging superman's weakness but with out that one material it's not a "fair fight". But if you stand Superman against someone with like power it changes things.

Mutants & Masterminds uses a character building scale called Power Level (PL). Your PL also determines the maximum your combined Attack & Damage and Defense & Resistance can be. In other words, if you hage a higher damage output with an attack, the attack has a lower 'bonus to hit' cap in compensation. The higher your Defense (dodging/avoiding), the lower your Resistance to Damage is for when you get hit. Also, Characters of comparable PL's are going to be even in a 1 on 1 fight, usually. To give some examples...

In the DC adaptation of Mutants & Masterminds, Batman is a PL 12, Superman is a PL 15. However, Superman has some exploits that Batman can use to make the fight more even. Also, Batman can create a suit of armor that puts him at a PL 14 and makes the fight about even.

Superman has a +11 to hit in close combat and does 19 damage (Attack + Damage is capped at PL*2). Wonder Woman is also a PL 15, but has a +14 to hit in close combat and does 16 Damage, reflecting that Wonder Woman is a better overall fighter than Superman, but not as strong. Superman has a Dodge & Parry of 10 each, and a Toughness of 18, about equal to his Strength. Wonder Woman has a Dodge & Parry of 16 each, and a Toughness of 14.

To hit in Mutants & Masterminds, you need to roll equal to a target's Defense + 10 on a d20 Roll, plus your attack bonus. To hit Wonder Woman, Superman would need to roll a 15 (15+11=26=16+10). Conversely, Wonder Woman would only need a 6 (6+14=20=10+10)

Now, if Superman hits Wonder Woman, she needs to resist the attack, and would need to beat Superman's Strength + 10 on a d20 roll + her Toughness. So, that would be a roll of a 15 for her (15+14=29=19+10). If Wonder Woman hit Superman, he needs to roll an 8 to resist (8+18=26=16+10).

That's just a quick and dirty example, but it does show how things balance out in the game. Effects of damage are based on how badly you miss making your resistance roll.

[Lithium]

@ThatOneDude As was mentioned previously, there's the trade off of attack and damage, but there is a feat that lets you reduce your defense in trade off for bonus attack. So instead of having +8 to hit with a damage of 12, and a 14 toughness with a 6 defense, you'd go to +12 to hit with a damage of 12, 14 toughness with a 2 defense.

Thing is, a 6 defense isn't dodging crap to begin with, you're built around /taking/ the hits, so losing 4 defense? That's nothing.

And that's just one way in which the PL system gets skewed. There are several Feats that all break the PL system.

[Runescryer]

@Lithium said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

@ThatOneDude As was mentioned previously, there's the trade off of attack and damage, but there is a feat that lets you reduce your defense in trade off for bonus attack. So instead of having +8 to hit with a damage of 12, and a 14 toughness with a 6 defense, you'd go to +12 to hit with a damage of 12, 14 toughness with a 2 defense.

Thing is, a 6 defense isn't dodging crap to begin with, you're built around /taking/ the hits, so losing 4 defense? That's nothing.

And that's just one way in which the PL system gets skewed. There are several Feats that all break the PL system.

And, if such Advantages are used sparingly and only when it's dramatically appropriate, that's fine; they're not game breaking when used in a situation like, say Indiana Jones against the Nazi mechanic in 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' (that's how I picture All out Attack).

Going back to my earlier post about system abuse being more of a behavioral problem on the part of the player than a flaw in the system, if players are always breaking the PL caps with those Advantages, it's easy enough to House Rule that 'No Advantage can raise a Bonus/Effect combination beyond the PL*2 cap'.

[Lithium]

@Runescryer Annnd now I don't understand why you wouldn't just fix the problem to begin with.

You say you are looking into Afflictions, why not look into other things?

Any time you have a way things can be exploited, someone will exploit it. It's human nature.

But... your game, your choice. Just seems silly not to head off a problem before it becomes a problem.

[Runescryer]

@Lithium said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

@Runescryer Annnd now I don't understand why you wouldn't just fix the problem to begin with.

You say you are looking into Afflictions, why not look into other things?

Any time you have a way things can be exploited, someone will exploit it. It's human nature.

But... your game, your choice. Just seems silly not to head off a problem before it becomes a problem.

Because, sometimes there's thematic excuses. Like the Indiana Jones scene that I mentioned. There are innumerate times in comic books where the climatic battle hinges on one character pushing themselves 'beyond'. When used in this context, the All Out Attack Advantage, and others, are appropriate.

Example....

Spider-Man is facing down Green Goblin. If Spider-Man doesn't stop the Goblin RIGHT NOW, the Goblin's going to launch a missile that will demolish the Empire State Buliding. All Out Attack would be dramatically appropriate to use here.

vs.

Spider-Man comes across a jewel thief trying to break into a store. He leads off with a massive punch to take the crook down. All Out Attack wouldn't be dramatically appropriate to use here, and would be abusive if Spider-Man's player lead off every encounter with crooks that he already overpowers in this way.

For me, it comes down to the appropriateness of the situation as to whether something is acceptable or abusive.

I see the situation with the Affliction rules as separate, since that's more of a built-in to character powers, rather than an occasional 'boost' the way some of the Advantages are intended to be.

[ThatGuyThere]

I understand what you are saying from a thematic point of view but that does not jibe at all with my experience in mushes with mechanical systems.
Granted that is limited to WoD and Star Wars games but I have most often seen people led with their biggest gun first.
Now is it in theme for Spidey to go all out versus a jewelry thief, not of course not it is a frequent thing in the comics of Spidey either mentioning or thinking how much he has to hold back against normal humans. However if there is no significant mechanical drawback for doing it I think we would see it in game more often than not. Especially since this is an OC game so you would not have Spidey, you would have Alt-Spidey and it would be easy enough to bang out a personality and background where you would have similar powers and no compunction against using them on over matched foes.
If you are going to house rule it when/if it becomes a problem you should likely house rule it to prevent it from becoming a problem.
Also are Advantages intended to be an occasional boost? the ones with trade offs such as All out attack, defensive attack etc have nothing written into them that limits their use.

[Lithium]

@ThatGuyThere said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

I understand what you are saying from a thematic point of view but that does not jibe at all with my experience in mushes with mechanical systems.
Granted that is limited to WoD and Star Wars games but I have most often seen people led with their biggest gun first.
Now is it in theme for Spidey to go all out versus a jewelry thief, not of course not it is a frequent thing in the comics of Spidey either mentioning or thinking how much he has to hold back against normal humans. However if there is no significant mechanical drawback for doing it I think we would see it in game more often than not. Especially since this is an OC game so you would not have Spidey, you would have Alt-Spidey and it would be easy enough to bang out a personality and background where you would have similar powers and no compunction against using them on over matched foes.
If you are going to house rule it when/if it becomes a problem you should likely house rule it to prevent it from becoming a problem.
Also are Advantages intended to be an occasional boost? the ones with trade offs such as All out attack, defensive attack etc have nothing written into them that limits their use.

^^^ This.

There is nothing stopping someone from writing a character that just goes all out, all the time, because they do not care, or think they are invincible, or because they take pleasure in just smashing things/people.

A comic book has the advantage of being written by one person, generally, and the store is the important bit. On a Game that everyone thinks they are writing their own story, and that they are the protagonist and nobody else is, then it becomes problematic very quickly.

I am also somewhat concerned by the statement of /not/ seeing people break things in WoD? People break things in WoD /all the time/.

They pick abusive merit/power combo's, they use them every fight they can get away with it, they steal the show because they can, and because the rules allow them to.

Given that M&M has this thing where you can't even /kill/ someone accidentally, there is absolutely zero draw back to using Power Attack all the time, unless you are facing something that can hurt you /and/ your defense would actually make a difference (A very very rare occasion in M&M in my experience).

[Runescryer]

@Lithium said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

@ThatGuyThere said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

I understand what you are saying from a thematic point of view but that does not jibe at all with my experience in mushes with mechanical systems.
Granted that is limited to WoD and Star Wars games but I have most often seen people led with their biggest gun first.
Now is it in theme for Spidey to go all out versus a jewelry thief, not of course not it is a frequent thing in the comics of Spidey either mentioning or thinking how much he has to hold back against normal humans. However if there is no significant mechanical drawback for doing it I think we would see it in game more often than not. Especially since this is an OC game so you would not have Spidey, you would have Alt-Spidey and it would be easy enough to bang out a personality and background where you would have similar powers and no compunction against using them on over matched foes.
If you are going to house rule it when/if it becomes a problem you should likely house rule it to prevent it from becoming a problem.
Also are Advantages intended to be an occasional boost? the ones with trade offs such as All out attack, defensive attack etc have nothing written into them that limits their use.

^^^ This.

There is nothing stopping someone from writing a character that just goes all out, all the time, because they do not care, or think they are invincible, or because they take pleasure in just smashing things/people.

A comic book has the advantage of being written by one person, generally, and the store is the important bit. On a Game that everyone thinks they are writing their own story, and that they are the protagonist and nobody else is, then it becomes problematic very quickly.

I am also somewhat concerned by the statement of /not/ seeing people break things in WoD? People break things in WoD /all the time/.

They pick abusive merit/power combo's, they use them every fight they can get away with it, they steal the show because they can, and because the rules allow them to.

Given that M&M has this thing where you can't even /kill/ someone accidentally, there is absolutely zero draw back to using Power Attack all the time, unless you are facing something that can hurt you /and/ your defense would actually make a difference (A very very rare occasion in M&M in my experience).

I get all that, and thanks for the objective analysis. I just would rather give players the benefit of the doubt before automatically assuming that everyone is going to abuse the system. Maybe that's not feasible, but we'll see

As for characters creating 'ruthless aggression' types that would take advantage of those rules...I'd prefer a story-driven ICA=ICC solution to rein them in. If not, things can get Nerfed.

As for 'no accidental killing'...That's another thing I'm looking into. Possibly adding a 'killing' level of damage if an Attack Effect is 2x greater than the defending Toughness. And you have to declare your Effect value before rolling to hit. Also, Advantages like All Out Attack automatically use the maximum Effect Value.

[Misadventure]

I am fairly sure you can create a number that reflects the minimum reduction of a thing you'll accept.

So you could say "Your total attack + hit can't exceed PLX2+4", or that you can't reduce your defense below some set point.

Mainly make sure you do things so fights play out as you want them to. I love tradeoffs like lower def for increased to hit or damage, however, I also like it when lowered defenses mean things that shouldn't hurt have a chance to surprise you. Ultimately, yeah Superman can let a RPG explode anywhere on his person and not care.

I feel the largest weakness is the compression of scales. Even the 2nd Edition of DC Heroes had Batmans best martial arts be like a 10 rating vs a 25 Toughness. 12 vs 15 is ... not good imo. My own 3rd Edition M&M proposed a 30 or 40 PL scale, depending on where the players initial designs ended up (It was originally for a post Kingdom Come setting).

[ShelBeast]

On the topic of players abusing system mechanics... My completely unsolicited two cents is that I have noticed a very distinct cultural difference between WoD games and Superhero games. It's been my experience that, in Superhero/Comic games, players tend to act more cooperatively than adversarial as they do in WoD, and even in what little SW MU*ing I've experienced. Now, most of the games I've played on have had a limited system that rarely, if ever gets used, but I was on one that was fully implemented to use the old DC RPG ruleset, and this still remained true.

[Misadventure]

Just you wait and see. Some games design will have players killing one another off.

[Thenomain]

@Misadventure said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

Just you wait and see. Some games design will have players killing one another off.

Mis, put the ChickTracts down and step away from the Christian hate-porn.

[Misadventure]

@Thenomain Did I say players??? >.> <.<

I meant characters. Yeeeess, the characters. Give them a few things they want from one another, and battle royale.

"Let's get paid!"

And I do not visit religious hate sites. I visit humanity sucks social/cognitive science sites.

[Shaggy]

@ShelBeast said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

On the topic of players abusing system mechanics... My completely unsolicited two cents is that I have noticed a very distinct cultural difference between WoD games and Superhero games. It's been my experience that, in Superhero/Comic games, players tend to act more cooperatively than adversarial as they do in WoD, and even in what little SW MU*ing I've experienced. Now, most of the games I've played on have had a limited system that rarely, if ever gets used, but I was on one that was fully implemented to use the old DC RPG ruleset, and this still remained true.

Yeah, PVP isn't nearly so much a thing on superhero games - it can be more so if people are playing villains, but 90 percent of people play mostly heroes and rely on storytelling to provide combat and opposition through NPCs. Thus, that kind of abuse of the system will a) not necessarily affect other PCs directly and b) largely occur in places where someone is already adjudicating the scene and can judge and measure whether those actions are appropriate. I would definitely be concerned about it if I were going to play a villain, just to make sure I wasn't prone to getting mechanically knocked out in the first round or two of any conflict with the heroes. People who play supervillains on superhero games generally expect to lose more often than not, but they'd still like it to be competitive and fun.

[Lithium]

@Shaggy This isn't precisely true. It is Hero vs Villain, sure, when someone is running a villain. As soon as there is nothing to do, it'll inevitably come down to 'spar' rp or the other usual suspects.

PvP will be a thing, just cuz personalities will clash and eventually it'll come down to dice.

At least, it has on every super hero game I've seen that uses an actual system.

[Shaggy]

@Lithium said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

@Shaggy This isn't precisely true. It is Hero vs Villain, sure, when someone is running a villain. As soon as there is nothing to do, it'll inevitably come down to 'spar' rp or the other usual suspects.

PvP will be a thing, just cuz personalities will clash and eventually it'll come down to dice.

At least, it has on every super hero game I've seen that uses an actual system.

I don't think I was saying it never happens, just that it's less common on superhero games than it is in other genres. And I did mention the villain thing. But yeah - Danger Room RP is a thing.

[Arkandel]

For a comic book MU* PvP shouldn't be lethal anyway. That's kinda how it works in comics.

Ship'em off to prison so they can escape or tie them in your deathtrap that doesn't work and move on.

[Runescryer]

@Arkandel said in New Superhero Game Looking for Staff/Feedback:

For a comic book MU* PvP shouldn't be lethal anyway. That's kinda how it works in comics.

Ship'em off to prison so they can escape or tie them in your deathtrap that doesn't work and move on.

For the most part, I 100% agree with you. However, you do have exceptions in the form of characters like The Punisher, Red Hood, even Green Arrow sometimes. My solution is to have 3 hero 'classifications': Superhero, Vigilante, & Anti-Hero

Superheroes are, well, pretty self explanatory

Vigilantes are the Batman & Daredevil type characters. There may be some superhuman ability, but mostly they fight crime by punching people in the face and fight more 'street level' concerns like organized crime, drugs, and political corruption

Anti-Heroes are the characters that believe lethal force is justified to make the city/world safer. Mostly, they're going to be sharing the same sphere as the Vigilantes

Player-run villains aren't going to be killable, unless consent is given. NPC Henchmen and mooks can be killed by the truckloads by Anti-Heroes. Of course, they have to deal with the consequences of their actions...