Kushiel's Debut

[Lithium]

@deadculture said in Kushiel's Debut:

@DnvnQuinn I think you should give it a try nevertheless. The Haven people are having a good time. It's not an exclusive game. People try to be inclusive. Sometimes it's hard to know who to approach to get oneself involved, yes, but with some RP effort it can work out.

The fact that Haven people are having a good time here, in addition with what happened to Sunny (Who just wanted to take a break to cool down, which is fucking reasonable as all hell), is like two strikes, and Skaldia is the third strike.

Not trying.

[deadculture]

@Lithium I am not sure why you chose to reply to that post in particular. Is it arguing just to argue? That's your take on it, it's fine.

[Jeshin]

Hey,

The Haven people having fun decided to leave Haven for a laundry list of reasons. I'm not sure having once played Haven for a month, a year, or several years somehow makes that person(s) enjoyment of a game irrelevant. I will say that when the group started making character the staff and players were very friendly over newbie channel and aside from a small issue with timezone for some of our group, roleplay is pretty consistent to find.

Certainly nothing that has happened on Kushiel's Debut is as bad as the stuff happening on Haven, so maybe we're just underwhelmed by any drama going on. That being said Eiseth... Ehisthe... Sunny was one of the staffers who helped get people through chargen in a reasonable amount of time, so it sucks that there was a falling out there.

[Shlappy]

@deadculture Huh. Having a hard time picking out an argument here. Looks like the poster was just expressing a lack of desire to play the game in a reasonable context? I could be wrong.

[deadculture]

@Shlappy After a second read of what she said, yeah, it does look like it.

[Arkandel]

Wow... I didn't read MSB for like 24 hours and the KD thread exploded in that time?

Shame, that was the drama-free corner of the MU-world in my head.

[Kanye Qwest]

@Arkandel You fool. L & L is never drama free! They are high school relationship drama + titles.

[Arkandel]

Phew! I finally read all of that. I guess I was wrong.

@Skaldia said in Kushiel's Debut:

Ok, since it seems Sunny will only address me where her adoring fanbase can cheer her on, let's put on a performance.

This is the only part of it I care to address at this point.

What would you suggest is a more fair place to have a potentially controversial conversation:

1. A game where one of the parties can get rid of the other parties at will and silence them completely if they so choose.

2. A forum where everyone is equal and free to express their opinions based on a very loose set of conduct rules.

It's difficult sometimes for game-runners used to having the final word and complete authority to play on a level field but also, sometimes, them's the breaks.

If it makes you feel any better no one on MSB enjoys immunity from criticism for their own screw-ups, and some of us have even become slightly better players (people?) from owning and learning from them from time to time.

@Kanye-Qwest said in Kushiel's Debut:

@Arkandel You fool. L & L is never drama free! They are high school relationship drama + titles.

(Also, what is L&L now?)

[Coin]

@Arkandel said in Kushiel's Debut:

@Kanye-Qwest said in Kushiel's Debut:

@Arkandel You fool. L & L is never drama free! They are high school relationship drama + titles.

(Also, what is L&L now?)

Lords & Ladies.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Echx
My issue is less with what happened on the game, as I have not played there since before this plot started.
However, if what Sunny claimed is true and you took anger over a game out on her on FB then that ranks right up there with Elsa's angry e-mails and well the e-mail sent by Skaldia. It also brands you as a person I would avoid at all costs.
I am not sure what drives folks to take game issue to non-game places, (This is a game place because while it is not affiliated with any game is exists to discuss gaming and games) but doing so almost always makes you an asshat.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Skaldia
First off fuck you and that adoring fan base crap.
Two, I don't care what people did or did not do on the way out of a game e-mailing shit about a game to someone that has left a game is bullshit. It is also the reason I give no one on games the ability to do so and on game that require an e-mail I give the one I check maybe once a week instead of one that I actually use.
Three, as a staffer especially a head staffer you might not have supernatural powers but you should be able to get a good feel for the desires of your player base at large. That is the main purpose for things like channels and the various other ooc chatter. Yes there is no good way to resolve a plot like that since regardless of what you do someone will feel left out, but what you should do is announce the plot resolution scene well in advance and not schedule during as someone here put it, the biggest IC social occasion of the year, I can see no reason to put them both at the same except to force people to be excluded from one or the other.

[Shlappy]

This post is deleted!

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@ThatGuyThere said in Kushiel's Debut:

However, if what Sunny claimed is true and you took anger over a game out on her on FB then that ranks right up there with Elsa's angry e-mails and well the e-mail sent by Skaldia. It also brands you as a person I would avoid at all costs.

This right here.

Sunny's account of what actually happened as far as the plot goes isn't, to me, that awful. It's not great, but these kinds of oversights happen and, in my experience, they aren't malicious a lot of the time. I'm also fine with the GM not involving the entire game in something (though something world-changing when you aren't running other events regularly is something else).

But the FB comments and that email posted here come off as nasty, whatever happened, and the responses in this thread from KD staff have been really tone-deaf. I'd like to think this is a heat-of-the-moment response that they'll look back on when things have cooled down and regret, but it still isn't good.

[Shlappy]

@Three-Eyed-Crow I like your optimism, but don't like the odds. This is Skaldia's general reaction to people who disagree with him about even the smallest things. He just decided to make a spectacle of himself this time.

[Shlappy]

@ThatGuyThere Skaldia isn't likely to get your message, sadly. His 'big move' was to call everyone who left his game 'cowards' and then to...run off back to his game. Funny ol' world, isn't it?

[Hella]

This whole issue has been an exercise in hypocrisy. Entertaining as fuck and I'm glad I followed the thread, but also hypocritical.

@Sunny did this same thing to people over on The Reach. There were plenty of Dunlin 'Elder' plots that the rest of us were excluded from, giving play only to a very small group of insiders+their friends, despite these plots having ramifications on the family as a whole. Where was the 'Oh why can't everyone be involved?' during that? Why is this now a big deal?

As for the FB message? Not ideal, that much I'll grant. But click delete, block, and it's gone. Instead of, you know, putting it up here for our amusement. For someone who claims not to want drama, there is a surfeit of things done to inspire it.

Then there's this: "I complained quietly to one person when I was frustrated, a couple of times." "Then I logged off to take a break, and Ash shared the conversation we'd had with somebody else"

How are these things any different? Both times it's staff sharing something quietly with one person. Who probably then shared with another. Who then shared with another. But wink wink Shhh! I'm only telling you, okay? So don't tell anyone else.
Anyone who MUs knows that this will end badly. To be offended when it does is silly. You want to avoid drama but still get shit off your chest? Write it down in a (not online!) journal. Otherwise? Don't complain when the things you do are done to you.

[Arkandel]

@Three-Eyed-Crow said in Kushiel's Debut:

Sunny's account of what actually happened as far as the plot goes isn't, to me, that awful. It's not great, but these kinds of oversights happen and, in my experience, they aren't malicious a lot of the time. I'm also fine with the GM not involving the entire game in something (though something world-changing when you aren't running other events regularly is something else).

But the FB comments and that email posted here come off as nasty, whatever happened, and the responses in this thread from KD staff have been really tone-deaf. I'd like to think this is a heat-of-the-moment response that they'll look back on when things have cooled down and regret, but it still isn't good.

I concur.

For starters the moment I think a L&L {tm} MU* is bound to have some people be more special than others. It's just the nature of the game, it attracts players who want to play that sort of role - when I made a character there, something which I enjoyed, I pretty much took it as a given. There are no objective ways to stand out and when everything is very subjective a lot of social ladders become popularity contests both IC and ultimately OOC.

A plot like this was, to my understanding, never possible to include too many characters directly. It was always going to involve a few. I'd even go as far as to say some of the people complaniint the hardest now, had they been part of it, would not be championing the complaints of those who didn't - in fact I'd expect their protests to be worded similarly to what staff on KD did.

But contacting people to bitch them out outside the game and after they left was inappropriate. As for the demand that such players go back and subject themselves to the inherent authority of staffbits on their own games rather than engage them on a public forum, that was not the best thing to do.

I mostly dealt with Asherat there and she seemed like a very reasonable person so I don't know @Skaldia that well. But the impression he's giving me is that he's the kind of staff who will very rarely admit to making mistakes and who might be very unused to people talking back to him without the recourse of shutting them down. That... is a problem.

I liked my time on KD. Which makes all of this sound pretty disappointing.

[Shlappy]

@Arkandel I actually share your disappointment. KD has an amazing amount of potential. Under different staff, it could truly be an amazing game. I also had a great time on there and met some cool people, quite a few of which I still play with on other games. The problem came with one of the staff alts involved in the plot rubbing that information in certain peoples' faces OOCly and flagrantly refusing to help get others involved at the same time. This is also an objectively -bad move- by staff.

The issue wasn't as much the plot having limited seats, but with how it was handled. Everyone at that scene was a staff alt or long-time friends with staff on this game save for like...one or two of them? Asherat certainly does have the capacity for warmth and welcoming, but I don't think she actually...does anything. Save for the occasional PrP with her friends.

I had fun there at one point! I met lots of great people and I still encourage folks to go and RP there. Most of the players are absolutely amazing and creative folks. Just stay the hell away from the staff alts and their cadre. It's not hard to figure out who they are.

[Sunny]

Bwahahahaha. You're kidding, right?

@VulgarKitten said in Kushiel's Debut:

This whole issue has been an exercise in hypocrisy. Entertaining as fuck and I'm glad I followed the thread, but also hypocritical.

@Sunny did this same thing to people over on The Reach. There were plenty of Dunlin 'Elder' plots that the rest of us were excluded from, giving play only to a very small group of insiders+their friends, despite these plots having ramifications on the family as a whole. Where was the 'Oh why can't everyone be involved?' during that? Why is this now a big deal?

You're smoking crack, here. If the wiki were still up I'd point you to the logs of the bimonthly (that's twice a month) scenes I ran distributing metaplot information for months and months and months? That Mira put all the effort into the apocdoc for? I never ran any Dunlin Elder shit, not once, and I was barely involved in the plots that did run despite the fact that I was a faction head. You weren't excluded from shit. You excluded yourself from family scenes after you totally lost your shit on me OOC and tried to tell people I'd said you weren't welcome. We "cleared up the misunderstanding" and you participated again, but the reality of my time on TR is so dramatically different than what you're describing here it's laughable. Months and months of scenes whose sole purpose was to spread the Metaplot information as far and as wide as possible. This is fact. It's not my problem that you had such a problem with me that you refused to partake. You were a crazy bitch then, and you're a crazy bitch now.

As for the FB message? Not ideal, that much I'll grant. But click delete, block, and it's gone. Instead of, you know, putting it up here for our amusement. For someone who claims not to want drama, there is a surfeit of things done to inspire it.

That's actually not even what happened in the thread. I said a rather polite 'I'm done' and that was that, at which point I got the e-mail from Skaldia, lost my temper, and posted it and the FB messages. I even specifically apologized because I'd lost my ability to be as graceful about this as I ought to be. It's not okay to harass someone outside of a game. It might be easy to deal with, but that doesn't make it an OK thing to do.

Then there's this: "I complained quietly to one person when I was frustrated, a couple of times." "Then I logged off to take a break, and Ash shared the conversation we'd had with somebody else"
How are these things any different?

One is me expressing my frustration that I was running into as a player to another player. It's called griping. The other is taking a staff discussion and sharing it. I don't really care that she shared what I said. I care that she shared it with someone else with the express purpose of that person running off to bully me with it, that she was looking for validation instead of understanding, that she was focused more on 'poor me, look what I have to put up with' instead of acknowledging that there was a problem and bloody fixing it. THAT is why that bothered me.

Anyone who MUs knows that this will end badly. To be offended when it does is silly. You want to avoid drama but still get shit off your chest? Write it down in a (not online!) journal. Otherwise? Don't complain when the things you do are done to you.

I'll complain all I want to, snookums. If it were actually as you're trying to frame it, you'd have a point, but you're so far off in lala land (oh god I am so surprised) that it's basically babytown frolicks up in here.

Edited to add: In case anyone wasn't aware, @VulgarKitten was Lara on TR.

[OrcRiot]

I had fun on The Reach...I miss it.