Sexual themes in roleplay
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@tragedyjones said:
The ability of vampires to enjoy sex varies greatly with edition of the game. Masquerade Revised explicitly said they DO NOT gain any physical pleasure from sex. Requiem 1 stated they can enjoy it, but it pales to blood, and that is similar to 2nd Edition. Sex is about as pleasurable to a vampire as it is to a heroin addict - it feels good, sure. But you know of a much better rush.
I generally view it as:
Sex is still sex, and sex is great. But.
But blood is better. And sex + blood is just something good taking its place as the warm-up act for something amazing.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin said:
Sex is still sex, and sex is great. But.
But blood is better. And sex + blood is just something good taking its place as the warm-up act for something amazing.
I just hate tapas. No matter what anyone tells me, inviting me out for dinner and taking me to a tapas joint will result in a flurry of fists in your face.
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So angry. Damn that rap music.
Also ego investment is similar to, but not a one to one relationship to investing your hormones and desires.
I have more hope that the latter can be handled to allow story play in relationship play.
On the former, I suspect that the very reasons people enjoy playing are entangled forever in investment, and so it will come and go, be a stronger and weaker correlation. I would rather have a little of that than lifeless or unenjoyable play.
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I cannot imagine playing a character without some sort of genuine emotional investment in it.
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But does that emotional investment mean that you are in a relationship with your PCs romantic interest, or their player? Cuz that's the thing that I see as destructive.
I have a waggish sense of humor.
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There is something inherently wrong (imo) with how fluid IC and OOC are for some folks.
I treat everything like an actual table, at a convention. I wouldn't take my clothes off there and shag in front of 500 geeks-like-me, so why would I do it on a game? What I do with my character, is just that, something the character is doing. I outright call anyone crazy who says to me, my role-play with you gave me feelings for you. You know we have a word for that, stalkers. Here's your sign. You might need a break. Maybe you should log off for a bit till you're ready to play the game.
We can be ooc, and chat, and make phone calls, and meet at cons, and shag, or whatever you like (hopefully not attempted at the tabletop game we're attending), but keep it separate: IC is not OOC, dammit. That's our relationship you're talking about, not our gaming. What my character is doing is not a part of our relationship. And if it is, if it's twisted-up that way, you're no longer playing a game, you're using the platform for your private whatever Stalky McStalkerstein. Stop pretending it has to do with your character anymore. You stopped playing the game, and went OOC.
I think a lot could be helped if people could just admit when they're twisted-up OOC and no longer really playing the game. I'm certainly not looking down my nose at people that meet online and go off to get married or make kidlets or buy a house together, or whatever, or shag at cons with irregular frequency as their thing. But come on. We're supposed to be logging in to play a game. It's not friggin' Match.com.
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@Bennie said:
There is something inherently wrong (imo) with how fluid IC and OOC are for some folks.
I treat everything like an actual table, at a convention. I wouldn't take my clothes off there and shag in front of 500 geeks-like-me, so why would I do it on a game? What I do with my character, is just that, something the character is doing.
I'm not really sure which angle you're trying to take here. If it's to poke fun at folks who think people only TS while naked and fapping, more power to you, I guess?
I think a lot could be helped if people could just admit when they're twisted-up OOC and no longer really playing the game. I'm certainly not looking down my nose at people that meet online and go off to get married or make kidlets or buy a house together, or whatever, or shag at cons with irregular frequency as their thing. But come on. We're supposed to be logging in to play a game. It's not friggin' Match.com.
How is this any different from people who tabletop together for years and go off to get married or make kidlets or buy a house together or whatever, or just shag at cons with irregular frequency as their thing? Because looking at most of the tabletop groups I've seen who have played for the better part of a decade, various degrees of all of those things have happened.
MU*ing is a social experience. For a lot of people it's just as social as a tabletop group, and over long periods of time it's almost inevitable that OOC relationships form, outside of corner case robots like @Ganymede.
If all that big ramble was to say that people should keep the IC relationships IC and the OOC relationships OOC and not confuse the one with the other, then yes, absolutely.
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@Misadventure said:
But does that emotional investment mean that you are in a relationship with your PCs romantic interest, or their player? Cuz that's the thing that I see as destructive.
Aren't we /all/ in a "relationship" just by being RP partners? That's a relationship, and likely not the depth/level that you imply, but it is still a relationship. My point here is that I consider my best RP Partners at the friend level. I am concerned for their well-being, their day, I let them vent about shit in their lives, it doesn't bother me.
I don't see it as destructive, for me, because I don't absorb it like some people do. I see some people get destroyed simply because they sponge off of people's rants, their situations, their problems, and they cannot escape that. It's just how they are, their sign or whatever.
Not everyone has this issue. Not everyone has this emotional tie to people that they TS. They can leave the keyboard and not think another thing about it for days, weeks. I have RP partners like that, you won't see them for a few days as RL takes front stage (as it should) and they handle it. I'm like this, too.
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@Sunny said:
I cannot imagine playing a character without some sort of genuine emotional investment in it.
Agreed, now to qualify this... I have characters I enjoy playing and various "tropes" that I enjoy. But I never get to "attached" that a PC death "reaaaaallly" bothers me or that I'm to scared to play a game as a game. Nor do I think I'm really this PC, but, when I play a PC I put myself in that character's headspace and RP. When I step away from the game or talk OOC, I am me though.
As for crazy stalker types or whatever, they shouldn't be lumped in with the people that enjoy your company or would want to play with you. I know with people I enjoy playing with, I try not to express to much of that sentiment in fear they will think I'm "stalking" them or "took it to an OOC level" when I guess I have. Because I like to RP with this player/character.
When I hear people try to be "better" then other people because of lack of TS or whateves it just smells of "DOUCHE". Its one thing to say "this isn't my thing" and another to say "LoL ya'll stupid". I don't like RPing parenthood, I'm a parent IRL and get my fill, no need to do it in my "me time", but, I don't talk shit to the people that enjoy it.
tl;dr = Treat people like people and assholes like assholes and remember, we're all people behind the PC even when we want to PK you... Its just part of the game (I'm going to get my revenge on Unmatta and Roisin as Dolos... MARK MY WORDS!!!)
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Let me clarify:
But does that emotional investment mean that you are in a romantic relationship with your PCs romantic interest, or their player? Cuz that's the thing that I see as destructive.
I wholeheartedly support friendships and trust between players. Even a romantically and or sexually involved set of players should still keep their IC relationship and its tribulations separate from their RL one. Right?
I have a waggish sense of humor.
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@HelloRaptor said:
MU*ing is a social experience. For a lot of people it's just as social as a tabletop group, and over long periods of time it's almost inevitable that OOC relationships form, outside of corner case robots like @Ganymede.
Fuck you. Robots have their place. I mean, where would the new Avengers movie be without Ultron or The Vision? And, please -- like anyone would watch ST:TNG without Lt. Cmdr. Data.
Fuck you and your robot hate, fucker.
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@Misadventure
I do agree. I look at it like this: This is my character, and you don't get to dictate what I do with him, as him, or about him. The same goes for your character and me losing all rights. -
@Misadventure said:
But does that emotional investment mean that you are in a romantic relationship with your PCs romantic interest, or their player? Cuz that's the thing that I see as destructive.
This is such a basic question that I'm uncertain why it's even being asked. No? Of course not. Anyone with even the slightest amount of IC/OOC separation knows that's not the case. Even the crazy crazy crazy people, when asked this question, do actually know that they are not in a relationship with the player.
Psycho isn't in emotional investment / the amount or intensity or specifics of the emotions involved, whatsoever. It is in the behavior in relation to those emotions, the understanding that this isn't real.
I bawled at the ending of Big Hero 6, occasionally cry at cartoons, won't watch most horror movies because I get genuinely afraid (Signs had me spooked for weeks). I know these things aren't real. They still get an emotional reaction -- occasionally, a really intense emotional reaction. I will not read / watch GoT, even though it's generally up my alley, because it caused me emotional distress when one of my favorite characters died when I was first reading the books once upon a time. Is this normal? Probably not, I'm an incredibly sensitive and emotional person and everyone knows this. One can probably relate my current medical condition somehow to the fact that fucking Titan AE makes me cry.
Even so, I'm only a little crazy in terms of roleplayers. I'm self-aware, I know I get emotionally involved, but I don't behave in a way that makes other people uncomfortable (and I check myself and my boundaries alllll the time to ensure this is the case).
Feelings are not bad. Regardless, period. It's the behaviors associated with those feelings that some people think are OK that are the problem.
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Titan AE had a couple of great tear moments.
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Sex is part of human nature. It's normal. RPing anything is normal. The worst and most fucked up taboos should be Rped between consentual parties, in my opinion. Because this is our imagination land. Now me personally? I TS rarely. Like, once a month or less. Not because I have it on schedule, but because I'm completely turned off by whores/slutty characters. The kind of slutty that's just out there for TS, thinks in terms of sex, and overall exists for sex. I like depth and tension and story. I think sexual tension is way more awesome and adds much more to character development than the outright fucking. It's the 'things we want but can't get' that I think helps shape a character.
On the other hand, TS should be a personal preference for everyone. Some people do it, some people don't, some people do it a lot. That doesn't make them bad or good, it's just a thing. It's like liking slice of life RP versus Action-packed RP. As long as it's all separate from OOC, and as long as character's interactions stay IC, it's all good. Jealousy IC is awesome, jealousy OOC is not, is what I mean.
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@Misadventure said:
Could you note the last three times you saw RP'd rape played out as an attention seeking bomb? Just a year and a MU name or type.
I can. TR had a subset of players - it was just a few, but they certainly were obnoxious as hell, who used "Oh noes! Raep!" as a mechanism both to get their jollies (Ok, some people like that.) and to attention-whore. When I mentioned people demanding that staff assess damages for violent rape, and make pregnancy rolls - that was one of them. That IS why TR has rape rules. Staff doesn't want to read gory, disgusting rape logs to decide if you anus is damaged.
There was another who decided both to get her jollies and yank other people's chains. She did it twice. The first time was 'only' the usual rape clusterfuck with the rapist getting killed and demanding to be immune to punishment. The second time, that was special, She was ICly married to Mr Badass Hunter when she decided to get raped by Mr Vampire. She did not discuss her plans for this with Mr Hunter's player. Who actually had some serious RL damage as a person revolving around rape victims. She plays out her vampire sexytimes, he finds out, flips OOC, has his character immediately PK her 'because he failed to protect her'.
The whole Hunter sphere flipped out and started demanding that they be allowed to hunt him down and kill him over her, IC.
Troy and I needed hip waders and shovels to deal with all that crap. We ended up retconning the death, warning her that the next time she did this she was for real losing the character and ordering him to stay far away from her player. (No contact. At all.)
There are reasons I am now never staffing again. Most of them are players like that.
Bleh!
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@Corruption said:
She plays out her vampire sexytimes, he finds out, flips OOC, has his character immediately PK her 'because he failed to protect her'.
The whole Hunter sphere flipped out and started demanding that they be allowed to hunt him down and kill him over her, IC.Our of curiosity, why did other PCs need to be 'allowed' to kill a PC but that person didn't need permission to PK another PC in the first place?
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people demanding that staff assess damages for violent rape, and make pregnancy rolls
Because saying, "1 or 2 Lethal, take your pick, and no because whether or not a character gets pregnant has always been the purview of the player of that character. Decide for yourself. Make a roll if you want, but it's not our call." would have been just far too onerous an effort.
Yeah, sweeping rules were totally the better way of handling it.
Staff doesn't want to read gory, disgusting rape logs to decide if you anus is damaged.
See above. Nobody ever had to read anything if they didn't care to, they just had to reply with a few sentences that amount to 'This doesn't require staff intervention.'
The first time was 'only' the usual rape clusterfuck with the rapist getting killed and demanding to be immune to punishment.
"This is a non-consent game, so no."
She plays out her vampire sexytimes, he finds out, flips OOC, has his character immediately PK her 'because he failed to protect her'.
The whole Hunter sphere flipped out and started demanding that they be allowed to hunt him down and kill him over her, IC.
Troy and I needed hip waders and shovels to deal with all that crap.
You didn't really. At least not for the reasons stated here. He had his character kill her character, they could in turn kill his, and I'm betting that would have more or less been the end of it. Why would they need to demand to be allowed to kill him? Did they just assume they couldn't?
How on earth did the conversation not go:
PLAYERS: This character killed his girlfriend, we demand that our characters be allowed to kill him for it.
STAFF: Okay? Have combat rolls started yet? Call for a ST when they do, if you guys need one.We ended up retconning the death, warning her that the next time she did this she was for real losing the character
Yes, how dare a player engage in roleplay other players might find fucked up or traumatic. Good thing you instituted a rule about how if you're going to roleplay anything that anyone might find fucked up and/or traumatic to deal with, they get forms signed in triplicate from everyone they interact w-... oh right, my bad, just the one thing.
and ordering him to stay far away from her player. (No contact. At all.)
The point at which I have to order one player to have no contact, at all, ever with another player, is the point at which I'm just removing one of those players from the game. I'd probably flip a coin, given all the givens here.
On the subject of staff being unwilling to deal with any of this:
I call bullshit most foul. During at least one of these incidents (I believe it was the 'assessing damage' one, with whatsisface the were-scorpion or whatever he was) I was on staff on TR and there were multiple staffers (myself included) who indicated they were willing to handle the situation and any future such situations (rape or otherwise) which might come up.
We were told not to, and then treated with everything from derision to open antagonism for even indicating we'd be willing to handle it.
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@HelloRaptor said:
there were multiple staffers (myself included) who indicated they were willing to handle the >situation and any future such situations (rape or otherwise) which might come up.
Yup.
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@Corruption Boy this is way more treatment than My death ever got. I engaged a player in pages over a chat. That was back when I was nice and didn't know anyone there. He kept telling me he wanted to get fed from, violently. I should have known, back then, but I was still new to WoD. So he tells me more and more he wants that violent feeding. It didn't really have 'sexual' themes per se other than that my character was attracted to males. He RPed like shit, barely composed sentences. I should have left. Instead, being a people pleaser, I gave him that 'violent feeding.' On the next day 3 werewolves come to my haven as I sleep, and just PK me. Just off me. My death never got retconned or looked into. Staffers were sympathetic with me, several dedicated to helping me out. However, Troy was, as I said in a previous post, an uncooperative cunt.
Why am I posting this here? Because there was OOC flirting. Because apparently that player said I 'sexually harassed him' to build his case. I thought they logged pages and chats? All it had to take was to look at those. I learned that years later he was banned because he did this to several more people. Still, doesn't change that I had an awful experience on the Reach, and that Troy can't deal with problems like this maturely. And NOW I just do consent based MU*s, plus working on one :P.
Hope this shows how people can use this bullshit OOCly to fuck with people and get players killed. On large MU*s it's way harder to police things like that, and people like that.
