MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't)

[ZombieGenesis]

@arkandel said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

@zombiegenesis Yeah, that's fair. Maybe an 8-ball kind of code which, if at least half the scene's participants silently activate, spits out a random encounter in the room.

The game They Came From Beyond The Grave has these quote cards that you hand out to players. Players get rewarded for finding ways to get to a point where they can use the quote or action they were given. I think it's a really neat system and has encouraged a lot of creative interactivity in the gaming sessions we've had with it. Something like that may work too.

[Sunny]

Raging? Really? How about we not do that, please and thank you.

No one said it, no; it was definitely an implication hanging heavily in the air, and I responded to said implication by making a statement that I felt was relevant to the conversation.

GMing is a creative skill, like roleplaying or painting or writing stories or making towering sculptures out of popsicle sticks or makeup or entertaining people on a stream. It's not the same skill as roleplaying, it's a different skill, and not everybody has the capacity to learn it just like the way my hands works means I will never be able to paint in a particular fashion. Being entertaining as part of an unscripted group versus entertaining people somehow under your guidance -- they're different muscles.

I think it's a great idea to encourage people to do it, bribe them, make it worthwhile, find ways to motivate more people to find out if they have the skill, but don't do it with an air that's going to make the people who can't do it feel unwelcome. That's all I'm trying to say.

[Lotherio]

For what its worth - if someone can make up a PC with a plot hook/quirk/secret/assorted past, etc - they can make a one-shot NPC with a secret that becomes a 'plot'. Instead of everyone is bored at the bar and a drunk NPC starts a fight, why not the drunk NPC that lost their wedding ring down at the lake where the players go muck about to find the ring, or the old NPC that needs that thing in their foreclosed house. Its the same as the Prince that lost their sword to the orcs or the old wizard that needs that spell component from the deep dark dungeon, just perspective. The latter seems more involved plot, but a quick NPC with a quirk is all that is needed. A secret from those who enjoy DM'ing/GM'ing on the fly, put out a random mystery and you'll get inspired by what the players contrive is the real mystery. Run with it like they solved it when really they gave you all the answers. Modify it like they were on the right path but there was a twist they missed if you're inspire to do just that. The only thing that is needed is a curious msyterty to solve.

[ZombieGenesis]

@sunny I could say your rage was implied and I responded in kind. That works both ways. You can't just reply to something no one said because you felt it was implied, which I heavily disagree with, and then get mad when someone comments on it.

You keep arguing against points that aren't being made or discussed. No one is saying anyone needs to learn new skills or that anyone should do anything they don't want to. I think some people may be saying that some people may be more capable then they think or that some people may just need a little encouragement but that's all.

I can't be responsible for what you think is being said if you don't ask if that's what I mean. The same thing goes for whatever incentive or encouragement based system that may exist on a MUSH. Just because someone feels they are unwelcome doesn't mean they are unwelcome. It may just mean they misread the situation and maybe they just need to speak with someone for clarification.

[Sunny]

Look, back when I ran games, I almost always had at least one or two staff members on my teams who were part of that "couldn't ST their way out of a wet paper bag" party. At least half of those people, it was NOT for lack of trying, let me tell you. Somebody around here could probably tell you all stories about the stories that my psychedelic coder ran. They weren't good. We made her stop. But these people, they contributed in their ways, a lot of them VERY significantly. See: coder.

You can say the same for players and the ones that run PRPs and those that don't. Those that don't, most of them aren't just logging in to passively consume. They ARE bringing value to the games they play on, most of them.

The automated prompts thought is great. I bet it would be possible to create some pretty incredible choose your own adventure, and I know of at least one game that's working on randomly generated dungeons PCs will be able to go do. Seeking alternatives that solve the problem -- more Things to Do -- is a far more likely to succeed endeavor than shaming people into running things.

[ZombieGenesis]

@sunny said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

... than shaming people into running things.

I'm out. Enjoy the thread everyone.

[silverfox]

This post is deleted!

[silverfox]

Never mind. There is no point.

Back to constructive: I always loved when there was a pot of random ideas I could roll until something struck me. The only problem was that when a system was put in place it wasn't always updated so the ideas eventually got stale.

[faraday]

@derp said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

People are bitchy and pedantic in MUSH and have been for 30+ years.

Maybe that's why it's a high mountain to climb to get people to run scenes for more than just their close personal friends.

[Pyrephox]

@zombiegenesis said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

@arkandel I agree with you on all points except one; the 'let's all' part. I can't speak for everyone but that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to find ways to encourage those who can and those who may want to try. Part of that is finding the right incentive system that doesn't ostracize those who can't or don't want to.

I really like the idea of automated prompts. Even something as simple as using an online writing prompt generator could be interesting.

This.

No one - except Derp, apparently - expects every player to be willing to make and run plots. That's an unreasonable expectation if for no other reason than these are games and not everyone finds GMing fun. Playing a game should not feel like work, and for a lot of people, GMing feels like work more than it does play.

That said, more people would probably be willing to try to run scenes (if not plots) if they got more support and guidance from games on doing so, and people could tackle the level of 'stakes' that were comfortable for them. The automated prompts and bingo cards are a good step forward - but it's a matter of encouraging and supporting players who do it, knowing that taking 'charge' of something is scary AND that their first experience might not go great because of a lot of different factors.

I.e. do not treat it like a job that is being delegated to someone, but rather treat it like the opportunity to get to introduce someone to something that is fun but stressful, and know that you're going to have to give some support along the way.

You still won't ever get to 100% comfort/interest in GMing. Probably not even 50%. Hell, I love GMing and sometimes I just...can't. Or an experience is so unpleasant that I just remember that I am not being paid for this shit, and walk away. But every single person who takes a chance with it, and has a good time is a win. Both because they did the most important thing in a game, have a good time, but also because they might be willing to do it again, one day. And again. And hell, maybe one day they feel up to doing something more complex. Maybe one day they even feel up to trying their own game.

And that would be cool. So, yeah, I'm all for trying new and/or interesting ways to get people to branch out into running things.

[PuppyBreath]

The turn this thread has taken, which no longer bears much resemblance to what the thread was originally about, has at least been enlightening in answering why I've struggled so hard to connect with many games recently. And perhaps why the ones I did connect with didn't last.

I personally dislike how Scheduled-Plot-Scene heavy games have become. I miss the connections of just collaboratively writing with other people vs participating in what I imagine a RPed tabletop session is like.

But I absolutely understand why it works better for most people.

[mietze]

Compared to when I entered mushing in the mid-90s (and to be fair, it probably very VERY much depended on what genre), there are more normal not-staff-never-want-to-be-staff that I see running plots for people than ever. Like with very few exceptions most games rather depend on that, tbh.

I think though that a lot of problems people are having that I personally observe (or am told when I ask a person if they'd like to try running something) fall into a few categories:

*Nobody's running the types of things I want to play in, so I don't get to play in the types of things that I run for other people and I'm frustrated about that. (this sometimes morphs into the dreaded OMG this place is populated by people who don't take RP as seriously as I do, since they like different and less meaningful things, if one isn't careful.)

*If I run something publicaly, it tends to get cluttered up fast with players I don't like. (who don't engage and probably are going to come to MSB and bitch about how boring all PrPs on this mush are within 5 minutes of finishing the 3 hour scene that I had to pester them to pose/do their action/ect the entire time or who would wait for 40 minutes to give everyone a 1 liner pose that didn't react to anyone else's pose)

*I'm over here working my ass off, running a ton of stuff for people to help take stuff off staff's plate, but it looks like instead of inviting me or securing me a spot in stuff that other people or staff are running, they're just doing stuff with themselves/their usuals.

*The system rules/lore is confusing and I get anxiety just thinking about putting myself out there that way as a storyteller.

*As a player participant I see people do no-shows, act like entitled assholes OOCly, try to run over/backtalk the ST, bitch about how they never get to do anything fun on a public channel while participating in this STed scene, argue with the ST over rolls/mock or not shut up OOCly about rolls, ect ect--fuck that, I don't want to risk having to deal with people like that.

The rules lawyers and drifter-offters have always been a part of the hobby since I started, but I will say that in the last couple of years I've seen a decline in ooc courtesy towards STs that is many times extremely shocking to me. But I mean, I think that decline is society wide as people are just at the end of their rope in a lot of things. I don't blame people for not wanting to stick their neck out and spend the energy that they have far less of knowing that there's a medium amount of risk that their efforts are just not going to be good enough and people will make that very obvious in their discourtesy.

[Devrex]

*Nobody's running the types of things I want to play in, so I don't get to play in the types of things that I run for other people and I'm frustrated about that. (this sometimes morphs into the dreaded OMG this place is populated by people who don't take RP as seriously as I do, since they like different and less meaningful things, if one isn't careful.)

This can be so, so disheartening. It's happened to me many, many times. It's quite a lucky thing when you get to a place where two people want to run and play in the same type of stuff, so they can feed each other and keep each other sane.

*If I run something publicaly, it tends to get cluttered up fast with players I don't like. (who don't engage and probably are going to come to MSB and bitch about how boring all PrPs on this mush are within 5 minutes of finishing the 3 hour scene that I had to pester them to pose/do their action/ect the entire time or who would wait for 40 minutes to give everyone a 1 liner pose that didn't react to anyone else's pose)

In my opinion, this can be solved by staff offering support for a player's right to refuse service to anyone they feel like refusing service to.

Nobody owes anyone else their creative labor.

I'd tell any player they have the absolute right to tell someone not to show up at their scene. "You dialed it in last time and that sucked my energy away so I won't be adding you to this one," is valid and okay, and in my opinion staff needs to back that. So is asking someone to leave a scene. "This is the third time I've had to ask you to pose and you gave nothing to work with. That's disrespectful to the other participants and to me, and I'm going to ask you to leave." Policies should be supportive of the fact that someone who is asked to leave has no real choice but to do so, if the code doesn't allow you to just straight up remove them.

*I'm over here working my ass off, running a ton of stuff for people to help take stuff off staff's plate, but it looks like instead of inviting me or securing me a spot in stuff that other people or staff are running, they're just doing stuff with themselves/their usuals.

This one is harder; if what staff is running is mostly public they get who they get. I get baffled by players who say this but don't sign up for the public fun on offer, or put in +requests, or otherwise use the tools. For this I would think communicating clearly: "Hey can I get into this, hey can you save me a spot, hey can I follow up on this lead, hey do you have any mysteries coming up I can participate in, hey would you be available for some RP..." would have a favorable response. Sometimes staff just doesn't know how to include a player more directly, is staring at their sheet or their backstory and is at a loss for a hook or an angle. Sometimes staff isn't aware they're interested or care about that RP. They might just need to hear from the player in a non-accusatory way.

*The system rules/lore is confusing and I get anxiety just thinking about putting myself out there that way as a storyteller.

The solution here may be for staffers to offer themselves as "rules support". Player tells the story, staffer offers back-seat drive guidance till they feel more confidence. I've done this for players before and am more than willing to do it again...but I haven't always been good about communicating that fact. Note to self for current project!

*As a player participant I see people do no-shows, act like entitled assholes OOCly, try to run over/backtalk the ST, bitch about how they never get to do anything fun on a public channel while participating in this STed scene, argue with the ST over rolls/mock or not shut up OOCly about rolls, ect ect--fuck that, I don't want to risk having to deal with people like that.

Weirdly I've seen less of this over the years, not more. Most players I've run into and have run for have been kind, appreciative, helpful, and forgiving. Everyone's mileage surely varies there, though. I offer this not as a refutation but more to offer a sense of hope...many players are awesome!

[silverfox]

@arkandel said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

@betternow said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

Or, GMs could not be the only source of plot and let players run their own stuff, make up their own cases to run for others, come up with their own NPC patients with X or Y illness for PCs to solve, etc. Then GMS only have to focus on big, world-changing stuff

In most MU* I used to play this was pretty much the default. In some of the sandbox ones it was really the only option other than when staff ran very occasional scenes.

Unless something has changed, the truth of the matter is the majority of players want to participate but not run plot. It's not really a matter of whether they are permitted to; in fact unless there are generous reward systems encouraging them to do so, it tends to not happen outside small groups of players running scenes for each other.

@Ganymede @mietze

I wonder, would this conversation about running plots (starting roughly at the above post 3 pushes back) and such be better off in the thread called GMs and players? We have strayed from wistful mu- ness.

[Arkandel]

@devrex said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

Weirdly I've seen less of this over the years, not more. Most players I've run into and have run for have been kind, appreciative, helpful, and forgiving. Everyone's mileage surely varies there, though. I offer this not as a refutation but more to offer a sense of hope...many players are awesome!

It's because we fixate, to an unhealthy degree, on the negativity.

I'm kinda retired now but I've been in this hobby for a very long time. I've ran hundreds of PrPs, some for just one person, some for an entire sphere. The vast majority of those went either okay or people were grateful whether I really knew the source material intimately or ran the exact themes they were looking for or not.

The last sort of 'big plot' I ran was on Arx (yeah, that was a long time ago). It was just a dumb idea, kind of a training exercise for whoever wanted to join where they had to scale a wooden tower wet with traps and grab a flag from the top or something. I didn't even know what rolls to use on Arx's system so we made them up on the spot. Like 20 people got involved? There was no reward of any sort. The winner was a random sailor. It wasn't tied to running metaplot or politics in any conceivable way.

I got the impression folks liked it. Did it blow their minds? No. Not every PrP needs to do that.

Just run something if you want to, don't if you don't.

All I wanted to say in this thread is... don't count on plots being run if you're a game-runner. Design the MU* in a way that it won't be boring unless you find a bunch of volunteers, as they don't grow on trees.

[Paradox]

I went to a restaurant a couple of months ago while on vacation. I don't remember the name, but the front desk told us it was an incredibly popular place. So we went, it was an Italian styled place.

So then they handed me a menu. On the menu it said Pizza, Pasta, or anything else you could want. That was it. I was like, 'What kind of place is this?'. Because I had no idea what was going on. The Server explained that this restaurant was one where you chose what you want to eat, the chefs would prepare a recipe instruction and you could go in the back and cook it yourself. I was so excited. I absolutely love to cook. My partner? They hate to cook so it was immediately a point of tension. Do we stay? Do we go?

We decided to stay. But the menu was so vague, I knew I could do Italian food, but what did I want to make? I opted for making a pizza. (It felt a lot like that make your own pie Seinfeld episode). I went and kneaded the dough, and then came the toppings. It was whatever I wanted that they had. Just so many choices. I quickly got overwhelmed.

So I made my pizza, the partner made some pasta. It was good, I enjoyed the experience, but they did not. They wanted to just sit and enjoy a meal together rather than having to come up with what to do.

---

I thought this story might be kind of relevant to this conversation as I was reading it. Even if you have a setting and theme in place, asking someone to come in and run stories leaves a lot of menu options that can get overwhelming. Some people may just want to enjoy the meal rather than cook it themselves. Some people are excited to cook but wouldn't know what to make because things are too vague. The experience could be really interesting, but it could just get so overwhelming you would never go back. Anyway, literal food for thought.

[Ganymede]

For the sake of brevity, I will be blunt.

@sunny said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

“Everyone needs to just step up and run plots” is an unreasonable expectation, full stop.

I concur because some people really suck at running scenes, for a plethora of reasons.

@derp said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

... in the idea that not everyone can GM, I find it incredibly unlikely that those who can't are somehow a substantial majority of players.

No, really, a substantial majority of players suck at running scenes, for a plethora of reasons.

Seriously, putting together a gaming troupe of people who all can comfortably run scenes is nigh impossible. We have all had to deal with that GM who thought they were spectacular when they were patently awful. The crew in Critical Role is an exception to the general rule that, among gamers, there's commonly a small handful of folks who have the time, energy, and talent to run a campaign. And for those of us who have lived through this, it is self-serving to hold otherwise.

I mean, there's a reason why this topic exists. There are few people with the time, energy, and talent to make a game; there are also few people with the time, energy, and talent to run scenes on that game; so people with both skillsets, which are necessary to pull off games with any sense of longevity, are exceedingly rare. In my 20+ years in this damned hobby, I can count on one hand the people who I've known to be able to do this, and I ain't on that list despite my glorious career as a staffer.

My opinion, constructively, is that those of the first talents need to pair with those with the second and ensure that there are as few boundaries as possible for those of the second to thrive. Meanwhile, those of the first need to carefully watch those of the second because folks like Spider and other miscreants often fit into the second variety of players. Having been on a few games that have been, in my opinion, universally considered successful, that success has less to do with numbers, policies, and code than with having someone of the first talents enabling those of the second to run scenes to generate activity on their game.

[Runescryer]

@derp said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

@bear_necessities said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

@derp What? There is a big difference between being able to play a character and being able to create a plot that is fun for everyone involved.

No, there isn't.

You create a character and a premise for a scene. That's pretty much all it takes. Every MU player does it every single day.

This might be something that's easy for you to do. And I, and other DM's, find it easy to do as well.

That doesn't mean that every player has the same capability. It can be for any number of reasons, as well.

Just speaking for myself, all my IRL gaming tends to be as a DM, and playing in MU's is my 'creative break' from being a 'forever DM'.

[BetterNow]

@ganymede said in MUs That We Would Love To Make (But Won't):

The crew in Critical Role is an exception to the general rule that, among gamers, there's commonly a small handful of folks who have the time, energy, and talent to run a campaign. And for those of us who have lived through this, it is self-serving to hold otherwise.

And in the case of Critical Role it's their actual JOB. They're all pro voice actors. They are a business, they all own the IP they've created. They have a literal monetary stake in the game.

I used to be someone who ran tons of plots. TONS. I don't know if they were good but people attended them. But back then I was a housewife, I had tons of time, I had no drains on my creativity.

Now I work a minimum of 43 hours a week while desperately trying to find a house in an insane realty market and by the time I log in, I am mentally exhausted and just want to inhabit someone else for the short while I have. It's why I can only really ever be in asyncs. I can't even get 90 consecutive minutes online. Life //changes//.

[Pyrephox]

@betternow Although, I'll throw something out from the other side of it:

Matt Mercer is not a perfect GM. He is a good GM where characters and dramatic moments are concerned! But he forgets rules, misapplies them, does asspulls, drops plotlines or closes them out abruptly, etc. The players aren't perfect, either.

But they still have fun. Lots and lots of fun.

Because someone doesn't have to be a perfect GM or a perfect player to have fun playing or running. They don't even have to be very good - I've had some really fun times playing with GMs who were clearly floundering a bit both IRL and in MU*s, and I've had great scenes with other players who maybe weren't the greatest roleplayers or didn't know the rules, or weren't sure what they wanted out of the scene.

It's true that you're never going to find 20-30 people who are objectively GOOD at running scenes and who WANT to run scenes regularly all on the same game. Luckily, "good enough" is fine, and you can have a lot of fun with "good enough" as long as you remove the legitimately bad actors who make scenes unpleasant for other people (running or playing).

Although, back on the actual topic of this thread: I really want a human-focused urban fantasy game that's all about spooky shit, urban legends, horror, and being that tiny spark of light in the darkness. Set in a city, not a small town.