Autism and The MU* Community

[Ganymede]

@groth

These are excellent strategies, but I find them patronizing. I employ them with my daughter, but would not do so with an adult or online. This is because I try not to talk to people as if I consider them a child.

I also do not automatically go to “neuroatypical” when I converse with someone. That feels patronizing to me too. I am fairly sure I am neurotypical, and I recognize others are not, but I am not going to presume someone pressing me is neuroatypical. In my experience, such are actually pushy neurotypical assholes.

[Groth]

@ganymede said in Autism and The MU* Community:

These are excellent strategies, but I find them patronizing. I employ them with my daughter, but would not do so with an adult or online. This is because I try not to talk to people as if I consider them a child.

I also do not automatically go to “neuroatypical” when I converse with someone. That feels patronizing to me too. I am fairly sure I am neurotypical, and I recognize others are not, but I am not going to presume someone pressing me is neuroatypical. In my experience, such are actually pushy neurotypical assholes.

I don't think you should assume someone pressuring you in general is neuroatypical nor would I suggest these kind of strategies should be applied broadly. Except in so far it's good practice to assume good faith.

Rather that when you notice a very specific pattern of behavior, it's a sign something autism related is going on and you can cut it off. A year and a half ago we had someone get dogpiled on this forum where it was instantly obvious to me this was what was going on because while anyone can be an asshole the pattern where someone keeps trying to clarify themselves over and over I usually only see from people on the spectrum.

[mietze]

And honestly, I no longer feel obligated to think first about the comfort and protection of someone who is making me feel uncomfortable. It really does not matter what diagnoses someone might have. If they cannot stop when someone says stop then it is probably better for all concerned if they are removed from a game until they can.

There are many people who are not neurotypical who have learned that no/stop means no/stop as well as far more people who are that rely on being able to push past that.

[Groth]

@mietze said in Autism and The MU* Community:

If they cannot stop when someone says stop then it is probably better for all concerned if they are removed from a game until they can.

In terms of managing a game, I've long had the opinion that public channels should be aggressively policed and maintained argument free, most people regardless of their diagnosis won't have any issue respecting that. Maintaining a positive game culture is key to a healthy game in my mind and if someone is harmful to the game culture you shouldn't keep them around just because they have a recognized mental issue.

That said, game management is getting off topic.

[mietze]

@groth not according to the thread.

Managing games where you are going to have to deal with a variety of behaviors (some intentional and some not) and how and when you draw the line is pretty important given how we do have more than a few people in the hobby who are neurodiverse.

If you do not wish to comment on that particular angle or it doesn't interest you then that's cool, but you are also not really the arbiter of what is on topic for a broad thread or not. Unless your thoughts would have taken you off topic, which of of course is totally up to you to decide.

Game management that is sensitive to people who struggle with certain cues or behavior that can create issues when it comes to respecting boundaries is something that many if not most of us who run games have had to deal with, especially when we have empathy for the person exhibiting those behaviors. Or in trying to communicate that in a way that is concise and does not rely on unwritten assumptions.
Whether we too share those impulses or difficulty, whether we have people we know who do, or whether its just so foreign to our existence that we cannot even begin to relate.

I prefer trying to find a consensual outlet for people who like and enjoy arguing fine details ect where they can have fun with others who like doing that without stressing out people who do not over telling people they can never engage in that sort of discussion. I find having a safe outlet leads to less explosive behavior or anxiety in people who are not claiming to struggle while actually using that to push past others' limits, but genuinely enjoy that sort of thing and cannot gauge when they may be making others uncomfortable.

[il-volpe]

@mietze said in Autism and The MU* Community:

There are many people who are not neurotypical who have learned that no/stop means no/stop as well as far more people who are that rely on being able to push past that.

There seem to be a hell of a lot of neurotypical people who for some fucking reason cannot say "no," or "stop." And for some damn reason actually think they can complain to staff about somebody talking about something they don't want to hear, without telling the person doing the talking that they don't want to hear it. And there seem to be plenty of staff who for some fucking reason think the person who was never asked to stop or told it was a problem at all is the problem.

[mietze]

Yes, communication is important. Where it gets tricky is when someone was unclear and blunt in saying stop and/or the person who was told to stop refuses to see/hear it. Because I have seen plenty of both.

There are many times if not most times that someone who exhibits unwelcome or problematic behavior will argue that they never understood that they should stop (even when there's documented evidence to the contrary, such as job responses, staff seeing things with their own eyes, ect). Or people who say well, ye I know we discussed last week that I was to no longer contact X player oocly because my comments about wanting their pc to be in a specific relationship with mine was unwelcome, but you didn't say i couldn't direct comments about their pc or themselves on this channel or in metaposes at ic events, how was i to generalize? And while in most cases that's going to be a manipulator trying to manipulate there are people who in fact genuinely do have difficulty extrapolating information.

I know a few people who really have a hard time hearing/acknowledging/abiding by a "no/stop" bevause they get extremely defensive and start spilling into other behaviors. This is very natural i think. But it is important to be blunt and clear (even if it is uncomfortable) and to imo immediate appeal for help if argument ensues.

I do think the issue of allowing people one instance of talking to from staff is largely so that the staff can be sure for themselves the message has been delivered. It is extremely rare that I have had to deliver that as staff where the person did not knee jerk respond they were never told, but the vast majority of those folks where not neurodiverse. Those folks tended to acknowledge that someone did tell them to stop but they thought it was more specific than it was.

I think if you want to have a welcoming game as staff you do have to be willing to facilitate communication and getting on the same page. That is often stressful to the players and so they can react to that intervention badly. How much flailing or flipping out behavior is going to be highly individual to the individual staffer.

Generally I have little tolerance for explosiveness.

[il-volpe]

@mietze My autistic perspective is basically that many NTs take honesty and clarity as offensive, and are thus themselves habitually unwilling to just fucking say it.

Years ago I was walking around this part of town where some friends of mine (probably neurotypical, though their sons have some traits) lived, so I went up and knocked on their door. One of them answered, said, "Oh, hi, sorry, we don't want to see anybody right now," and shut the door. I left and went to the coffee-shop a few blocks away. There I encountered a mutual friend, who was in a high state of hurt feelings, because exactly the same thing had happened to him ten or twenty minutes earlier. He was furious, they'd said they didn't want to see him and slammed the door in his face. I was fucking /delighted/ that they'd said no and shut the door, instead of asking me in and letting me wonder what the fuck was going on that the vibe was so weird, feeling confused and anxious and not sure what to do, making my day and theirs worse.

Considering friend 3's anger and that it's probably a typical reaction, I have some sympathy. Though the familiar MU behavior of 'say nothing and try to get them in trouble with staff' is still just obnoxious and stupid, because, uh, callin' the cops instead of asking your neighbors to turn down the music is vicious.

ETA: I expect probably most of the ones who say 'I was never told' when staff come in are lying about it and that's far more common and far more obnoxious.

[MisterBoring]

@il-volpe

In my experience, if I have issue with another player on a game, I go straight to staff with that issue because I feel like keeping staff in the loop helps to minimize the potential harm of any blowups that may occur. If nothing else having a somewhat impartial third party helping me work out what the issue really is can be a great boon, at least for me.

Also, honesty can often feel like hostility to some people, so they may be avoiding what they feel like is a direct attack from them onto you just from what they've dealt with when people have been honest with them in the past.

[mietze]

Sometimes people need help communicating.

I do not think that someone slamming a door in someone's face is necessarily more "right" than someone else trying to honor a friend's unexpected ask even while uncomfortable. It might be a culture thing (hospitality) or a number of other things that influence either reaction to someone showing up at their residence unexpectedly.

You and your friend could have called and asked if it was all right to come over also, so both of you could also be seen as having imposed yourself on other people.

Different people have different socialization as well as neurology (plus interaction between those things).

I think this is an important thing to consider when you're mediating uncomfortable communication especially on a text based real time environment.

Personally I do find it helpful to have some cultural expectations put into place even if you think its stupid to name them. I dislike having staff help to work through a breakdown in communication be seen as "getting someone into trouble" but I accept that many people will automatically assume the worst and may lash out at everyone or meltdown as a result.

Communication can be difficult even when everyone else's styles match.

[il-volpe]

@mietze Oh, they are drop-by people, I don't do that with just anybody. I later learned that they were in the middle of a marital dispute. But anyway, they were blunt af, I took it well, friend three didn't, his response is probably more normal. So people rely on the types of cues that autistic people are likely to miss, and it's hard on us.

[GreenFlashlight]

@il-volpe said in Autism and The MU* Community:

@mietze My autistic perspective is basically that many NTs take honesty and clarity as offensive, and are thus themselves habitually unwilling to just fucking say it.

Oh my goddddddd, this. I know this song is almost definitely not a metaphor for autistic people trying to navigate a world in which not reflexively lying to people who trust you makes you the weirdo, but I like to pretend that's what it's about and give it a listen when I get frustrated at people's bullshit.

[Ganymede]

@il-volpe said in Autism and The MU* Community:

My autistic perspective is basically that many NTs take honesty and clarity as offensive, and are thus themselves habitually unwilling to just fucking say it.

My non-autistic perspective is that people generally wish to avoid offending people, and therefore err on the side of caution.

As an NT, learning that I cannot be held responsible for the weakness or sensitivities of other NTs has been liberating. Now I err on the side of honesty and clarity, and am willing to fucking say things.

As a parent, I am attempting to make up for the sensitivity of my NT child at the same time, and finding that being honest and clear is not always the best strategy with a young woman who has difficult modulating her emotions.

I hope you can see the dilemma that people like me are sometimes placed in and why my active policing of what and how I say things makes me an opinionated powder keg.

[kk]

I have had serious lot of help from other mushers when it comes to understanding things and I appreciate it. Some of that help even came recently from a MSB regular. Some of the social advice I got from mushers, I applied to real life, sometimes even with good results!

Despite a childhood dx of autism, it is questionable if I am typically autistic or truly autistic, whatever that means...hehe.
But I say this just to be clear, that whatever I say is not representative of autism in general, it is just my thoughts.

I have a few thoughts about communicating on the spectrum while mushing though....

One is that everyone has problems and my problems are not necessarily any worse and they are not any more valid. Someone might be struggling because they are mushing through chronic pain. That might be as hard or harder than mushing with autism.

Nobody owes anyone time/attention and etc. When people help to explain things, it is a gift nto to be taken for granted. It is not something that anyone is obligated in.

And everyone on a mush should be self responsible for their own behavior regardless of their situation or dx. If one cannot be self responsible because their situation is too serious, they shouldn't be mushing.

But.....some possible advice its hard to communicate on a game or on msb! (This is far from expert advice, warning!)

-Log off and take a break if things are confushing. Come back after a bath and after some Netflix with a clear head. Stop posting on MSB if it feels like everyone is attacking and it is hard to undrstand why.

-It is okay to ask people what they intended if one is confused. I do it alot and it clears a lot up and I find it is better than just misunderstanding and making a mess of things. However.......nobody owes an answer to that question and if someone doesn't want to talk that needs to be respected.

-If one is jumping to feeling emotional and defensive and attacked, things are more likely to be viewed through disorted lenses, that is a good time to take a break or be careful how one responds.

-if you go icly only on a game and don't babble lot oocly there is less ooc drama and less chance things will be taken out of context.

-Gams should always be fun! But mushes can fun and a learning experience in how people think. But when things are not fun, it is time to log out.

[il-volpe]

@ganymede

I do see your dilemma and sympathize.

As an NT, learning that I cannot be held responsible for the weakness or sensitivities of other NTs has been liberating.

As an autistic, I am frequently held responsible for those things and can't escape it without narrowing my social sphere even more severely than nature has forced.

As a child I was informed, by a grandmother quite familiar with the rearing of autistic children (though she was far too old to consider it a medical thing) "Other people's feelings are real and matter even if you do not understand them." Much of my life has been spend banging my head against the fact that other people will not apply this principle to me.

ETA: And along with narrowing social sphere, I must also find work where interaction with other people is minimal. ETAA: More minimal than can be reasonably expected, really.

[MisterBoring]

@il-volpe said in Autism and The MU* Community:

Much of my life has been spend banging my head against the fact that other people will not apply this principle to me.

I've had several situations in my experience where someone attempted to do what they felt was respectful toward my feelings on an issue, only for their actions to exacerbate the situation. This was solely because they didn't do it the way I wanted them to (I'm very much a my way or the highway person in some situations), and not because they were ignoring my feelings in the matter.

I had to work to realize that if someone does something to repair the bridge in a way other than how I would, it doesn't necessarily mean they think my feelings don't matter, it just means that they communicate that differently.

It may be possible that you've been in similar situations yourself.

I hope that makes sense. If not, just disregard me.

[il-volpe]

@misterboring Oh, that happens. What I had in mind is stuff like,

I say, "Please do not attempt to get my attention by touching me. Unexpected touches are not only startling but often literally painful."

"They don't bother me," says co-worker, and continues to put her hand on my shoulder at random times when I'm staring down a microscope.

Repeat until I quit.

I say, "The noise that kettle makes is like somebody tattooing "no ragerts" on my cerebral cortex. Please use the other one."

"I don't hear it."

"That's not really relevant. Anyway, I bought you this other one. Please use it instead."

Person continues to use the old one until I steal it and give it to the Sally Anne.

[Ganymede]

@il-volpe

So, the people you have worked with are assholes.

Your experience as an NA is different than an NT, but the cause is the same.

Assholes be assholes.

1. Do not touch others without their consent.
2. If an alternative is less damaging and available, use it.

Simple rules of office etiquette.

[thhppbbbt]

@ganymede Assholes might be assholes, but NT assholes very often asshole at ND folks specifically using the pretense that because they don't need [accomodation X] they don't need to respect anyone else's need for it. It's a really, really common thing, and saying it's just assholes being assholes disappears that NT assholes who mash ND buttons often face no repercussions because the other NT folks can't figure out why ND person is being so insistent, pushy, needy, particular, etc etc etc until the end of time.

[Macha]

@ganymede Yeah, I had a boss that constantly made me move my chair so she could walk up behind me and look over my head at my work. I explained to her that having my back exposed like that was bad, and if someone came up behind me too fast, it could trigger my PTSD, because of repeated childhood abuse, where I was doing homework at the table, and... well, you get the idea.