Blood of Dragons

[Balerion]

@icanbeyourmuse I can't comment on your specific situation as I don't know who you were applying for and what the issues were. However, strictly speaking, there are not multiple applications; there's an application and a CharGen process. After requesting a character, players are asked to email an application. Precisely what that entails depends on the the character, but for many it is this one. Perhaps it is a bit of a misnomer to even call this an application as it is extremely rare for anyone to be denied at this stage unless their concept is completely unthematic. Once approved, the player starts the CharGen, and it is absolutely true that its an involved process, in part because the idea is to create a character that can remain on the roster and easily be picked up by someone else if the original player vacates the role. That is why we also provide pre-CGed characters, because we do recognise that the effort involved is beyond what many players are comfortable with.

@il-volpe Feel free to be annoyed, just as we feel free to consider it disrespectful to someone we regard as a friend to go against his wishes. As for banning players, I do not believe we have had to do that. But yes, our policy is that it is a bannable offence to discuss, link or in any other way promote fan-fiction or unapproved games, if one persists in doing so after being informed of our policy on the matter.

I am not sure why you have the impression that we somehow endorse other types of fan-created games. We do not allow play-by-post games on the forum and while we use Second Life ourselves, we do not roleplay there, nor do we in any way promote any of the ASoIaF/GoT roleplay sims.

Finally, for the record, to suggest that I am solely responsible for all or even the majority of the work on Westeros.org, the World of Ice and Fire or anything else that we're involved in is a very mistaken position to hold.

@jeshin Just to clarify, before someone reads too much into what you wrote, we have never suggested that we have the authority to send cease and desists to any other game (and we have never attempted to do so.)

[Thenomain]

@Balerion said:

feel free

The shame-trolling has got to stop, dude. It's easier to have a reasonable conversation with someone when you're not telling them how they're bad and should feel bad. You can have a difference of opinion without being, well, disrespectful about it.

[Insomnia]

@Thenomain said:

I admit, I am enjoying Cry Plays Telltale's Game of Thrones, tho. Youtube and Cryotic get my ad-supported money, and I recommend that you listen to Cry's dulcet tones and amusing side-bars. The game seems more like fan-service than their Walking Dead, but it's still well-written and does not suffer death-of-the-week.

My voice isn't as awesome as Cry's, but I've also been playing TellTale's Game of Thrones. My main complaint isn't that it doesn't go anywhere, but that it's in the past of the show. That and people are always remebering things and silently judging me. That and the game doesn't want to be recorded easily. Stupid game!

[ThatGuyThere]

Question then, if it is disrespectful to an author to have a unapproved game, (not that I think it is but it is what you have stated.) Then wouldn't be equally disrespectful to play on one such as Elendor, which we know one of the co-heads of your game has done?
Or is it only disrespectful to the authors you consider friends?
I don't agree with your position but you are free to feel that way, however hypocrisy that only some authors should not be in your view disrespected that I find a unpalatable.

[Balerion]

@ThatGuyThere said:

Question then, if it is disrespectful to an author to have a unapproved game, (not that I think it is but it is what you have stated.) Then wouldn't be equally disrespectful to play on one such as Elendor, which we know one of the co-heads of your game has done?

Several staff members on our game (including myself) were on Elendor, actually. I can't speak for all of them, but I started playing on MU*s when I was in high school and wasn't too aware of things like copyright and IP back then. It took a couple of years -- around the time I learned from a friend about Katherine Kerr disapproving of Deverry games -- before I realized that was a real concern that authors had, and began to learn more about such things.

As it happens, my understanding of Elendor was that the Tolkien Estate was aware of it and allowed it to go forward because it was hosted by North Arizona University due to a department using it for academic research purposes, and because it was not-for-profit (also, one of the admin had worked on ICE's MERP game, and may have had contact with the estate through that connection). In fact, by the time I was an admin there, we dealt with a situation where a lawyer of the estate got in touch because it had been reported a player had loaded up the whole of the Silmarillion (IIRC; may have been some other text of Tolkien's) onto objects on the game, which we promptly removed. The lawyer reiterated that they were fine with the game as such, so I feel comfortable with having played there.

Looking back on it, I can't think of a game I joined after 1998 or so that did not have permission of some form. Cuendillar, for example, received permission from Robert Jordan, a permission that basically authorized all other MU*s who adhered to the stipulations. And if I decided to try a new game today that involved someone else's IP -- maybe the new Star Wars movie will make me want to try such a game (my very first MUSH was Star Wars: Minos Cluster, actually) -- I'd check into whether there was permission for the game, if relevant. That's me, though.

[WTFE]

Are you sure you wanted to turn that to eleven here and now? The guitar solo is still ahead and you won't have that extra "kick" if you keep up at this pace.

These go to eleven!

[il-volpe]

@Balerion

Endorse? Well, actually, in spite of having had a bit on SL for years, I didn't know there were aSOIaF sims on there 'til I read something about them on Nymeria's blog, reviewing the, uh, poor quality of the role-play on them as I recall, but I may be in error about that. Play-by-posts, as far as I know you (plural) just ignore them. In contrast to decrying other MUSHes and shaming and occasionally attempting to intimidate their players. Which is indeed annoying.

I stand corrected re: division of labour.

[BigDaddyAmin]

@Balerion

I am curious how much of this is really about intellectual property and not some feeling of superiority or a special connection with the author of A Song of Ice and Fire series.

Ever since Game of Bones opened up or other people have even considered Westerosi-themed games, whether it be on Reddit, PbEm, whatever, this proof of authenticity has been taken to jihadi proportions (banning IPs, calling people "cunts"and trolls on Hippoi Athanatoi, etc.) Sure, a lot of us WORAites have had our fun...but who gives a dry fuck, Bal? You and Nymeria are profiting off of GRRM's gravy train (for as long as that lasts). That's great. Some of us just want to play a damn game.

It has almost become religious. It reminds me of Nichiren Buddhist sects in Japan getting into bitch fights over which Dai Gohonzon (a scroll with the Heart Sutra written on it in Nichiren's caligraphy) is authentic.

In the end, does it really matter?

Back when I was seven, my friends and I were fascinated with the film The Last Starfighter (this gives you a hint at my age). We liked that shitty film so much that we used to pretend we were starfighters fighting for the Star League against to Kodan Armada.

MU*ing is essentially this. It is adult "pretendy time" (I won't go into the gray areas of fanfiction as I know your bride is probably reading this over your shoulder and I don't want to trigger her).

I will admit, Game of Bones or any of these Reddit groups don't have the detail BoD does. It doesn't even have as near of the playerbase that you all do (though to be honest, your legion of features inflates the numbers so I would think that you all are on equal footing for the moment)

BoD has a really excellent setting and you guys should be commended for putting so much work into it.

But if you guys were a little less draconian you probably wouldn't have the competition to begin with.

[The Tree of Woe]

People behaving like shitty, mouth-breathing cunts over competition between A Song of Ice and Fire roleplaying venues is absurdist poetry.

Keep it up! Act like bigger cunts! Live the book! Valar morghulis!

[il-volpe]

@BigDaddyAmin said:

But if you guys were a little less draconian you probably wouldn't have the competition to begin with.

Thing is, it's just not a competition. You don't see WoD MU* staff having ragefits that a new WoD game has opened. Okay, from time to time somebody quits game X to make a new game and tries to drag all their friends along, and there are hurt feelings, but when there's no personal connection? MUs are generally friendly-ish to one another. Hell, I tell people that BoD exists, and is almost certainly (having never played there, I cannot say I'm completely sure) more accurate to the theme, because its owners are more privy to details of the world and more interested in sticking strictly to the timeline. and it is definitely more controlled. It's not a contest because they're different. They're run differently, by different people. A person might even (OMG) play several different MUs in the same theme and enjoy them all. It seems to me that attacking other games is a way to try to keep players while not having suit them beyond having a theme they want and being the only game in town.

[Alzie]

@Balerion said:

@jeshin Just to clarify, before someone reads too much into what you wrote, we have never suggested that we have the authority to send cease and desists to any other game (and we have never attempted to do so.)

Yet this is a thing you have done, loudly and very publicly, in the past. So let's not pretend that you're a saint.

[Sunny]

Banning people for talking about other games / etc / etc has nothing to do with respect (and it's a lie to say it is) and everything to do with fear of people leaving/control. Your wife, at least, is well aware that if the bulk of the people playing on your game realized that they actually had options, they probably wouldn't be playing there. The policy is geared towards holding a captive audience -- if you don't play here, you don't play this. To pretend otherwise is ridiculous.

I mean come on -- in the past, at least one half of your pair have VERY THOROUGHLY displayed that they do not in any way, shape, or form understand Fair Use or IP laws. Let's not pretend the pig is a pony just because we shoved a plug with a tail up its ass.

[The Tree of Woe]

Yessssssss....

[Miss Demeanor]

@Sunny That... is the best description I have ever heard and I thank you for it.

[Roz]

I was super surprised not to get someone from BoD knocking on our door when I was staffing on the old Steel & Stone GoT game a few years ago. It was a thing pretty commonly spoken about in regards to other GoT games.

At the end of the day, the real reason people on this thread have a recoil factor in regards to BoD is not really because of the IP issues, it's about the really public behavior of the owners.

[Rook]

To the hapless would-be player that goes to BoD: Read this thread carefully and understand what you are getting into.

This discussion is for you. It is a warning of what sorts of people the owners of this game are, how they treat their players, and how they expect to be rulers of their little fiefdom in kind. In this thread alone, Balerion has been called out for his behavior both now and before, as has his wife and co-owner. He has been called out for lying to you in this very thread.

Do not reward this unethical, self-centered style of staffing from your games. Demand higher ethics. Reward those that try their damnedest to deliver it, despite their shortcomings. Most games at least TRY to do the right thing.

[Balerion]

@Alzie I think what you mean is that we've sent cease and desists on other occasions not related to BoD? Which is true. We have never sent a cease and desist regarding our game or any other ASoIaF game, but yes, we have sent DMCAs regarding copyrighted content that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with BoD.

That is a legal right one has. Exercising a legal right is neither saintly nor sinful.

@il-volpe We'd very happily cross-promote other games based on GRRM's intellectual property, provided they were authorized by GRRM to do so, of course. We'd suggest games seeking that approval avoid having administrators who participate in forums dedicated to trolling and mocking GRRM, though, as it would probably prejudice him against approval.

[Sunny]

@Balerion

It's a right I have, I guess, to call the cops because somebody got to a parking space before I did. It's a right I have, to call the cops. I'd be wrong, I'd be bitched out by the cop and possibly ticketed and fined and whatever else for wasting everyone's time,

Pretty fucking sure that's exactly what your stupid 'cease and desist' letters always amounted to. Because again, you do not understand Fair Use or IP laws, which is insane to me because you're so involved with IP issues. One of you two should take a damn class or something.

[Alzie]

@Balerion said:

@Alzie I think what you mean is that we've sent cease and desists on other occasions not related to BoD? Which is true. We have never sent a cease and desist regarding our game or any other ASoIaF game, but yes, we have sent DMCAs regarding copyrighted content that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with BoD.

That is a legal right one has. Exercising a legal right is neither saintly nor sinful.

Yet, we are all painfully aware that you have in fact gone to other games (And even in this thread you have stated) and stated that they are not allowed to exist because they do not have the permission of GRRM, only you do. So trying to wiggle out of it by saying 'Well it wasn't about BoD specifically' is silly, because it was in its entirety about BoD even if you never mentioned it specifically and only ever referred to GRRM's series. In any case, we have established that sending cease and desist letters and DMCA notices on GRRM's behalf is not a right you have unless he has given you that right legally by naming you his representative in these matters. I'll assume he hasn't named you his representative in these matters and I'd say that's a fair assumption since if he wanted to spend his time sending DMCA notices and cease and desist letters, he would probably hire actual lawyers. So far, he has pretty much demonstrably demonstrated he does not give enough of a fuck to waste his time considering how many places his IP is found.

@il-volpe We'd very happily cross-promote other games based on GRRM's intellectual property, provided they were authorized by GRRM to do so, of course. We'd suggest games seeking that approval avoid having administrators who participate in forums dedicated to trolling and mocking GRRM, though, as it would probably prejudice him against approval.

He says, as if GRRM is trolling the internet for his hate forums.

[TNP]

@Sunny said:

Because again, you do not understand Fair Use or IP laws, which is insane to me because you're so involved with IP issues. One of you two should take a damn class or something.

You might be underestimating them. Or him. One of them. Probably not her. It is, simply put, bullying. And companies fold whether they can win or not simply because they don't want to deal with it and it really doesn't inconvenience them to give in.