The Case Against Real PBs

Ghost

@Ganymede said in The Case Against Real PBs:

There's no harm in using a picture in public domain

Alright, let's test this.

Let's say you use Sporty Spice (the best spice btw) as a PB and roleplay out an artful ts scene that just happens to include both your RL kinks and the kinks of the partner. This may or may not involve "chair gratification" by yourself or the other, which may or may not be admitted to.

Now, you're at dinner and someone brings a friend. It's Sporty Spice herself.

DO YOU TELL SPORTY SPICE THAT YOU HAVE USED HER LIKENESS AND IMAGE IN LINE WITH A SEXUALIZED SLASH-FIC SCENE WITH ANOTHER PLAYER WHO HAS A RL KINK FOR HER?

"Oh hey so you'll get a laugh out of this. I roleplay in an online text based game where my character uses an image of you as their likeness. The sex scenes are super hot and she's currently in an in-character relationship with someone pictured as James Franco."

it's a simply yes/no question and if the answer is no, I'm pretty sure that line of thinking will end in "...because it would embarrass me and come across as creepy."

And it would come across as creepy because it's apparently not favorable in the public eye to use someone else as a gratification tool without their consent.

ZombieGenesis

@Ghost I can't stand the stance of "if you disagree with me, then..." enter whatever negative thing you think the person doesn't want to be associated with. It's the whole, "anyone who disagrees with this hates puppies." So I'm gonna check out of this discussion because it's clear there's no real attempt at discussion happening here.

I hate to say it, but I might finally be done on this forum. Nothing constructive seems to happen here anymore, and the most active thread in months amounts to "Ghost thinks people who use PBs are creepy weirdos, and if you disagree with that, then you must be one."

It's too bad. I've been part of this forum since, like, 2 incarnations previous, but if this isn't a death throe, I don't know what is.

ZombieGenesis

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

"ridiculous argument about Sporty Spice"

This was posted as I was writing my post. I'll counter a ridiculous argument with another one, did you ask for consent from all the people you jerked off to in high school? Did you tell them you were doing it? No? Did it affect their lives in any way that you were doing it?

Ghost

@ZombieGenesis said in The Case Against Real PBs:

"Ghost thinks people who use PBs are creepy weirdos, and if you disagree with that, then you must be one."

To be fair, Ghost thinks a lot of people he's met in the hobby are creepy weirdos, as referenced by a lot of creepy behavior. My argument here is that there is something creepy actually happening that I don't think people point out enough.

Take it or leave it or block me if you require, I'm just sharing my viewpoint and if people don't agree that's fine, too.

As for the "if you don't agree..." thing, I swear I've heard and seen this kind of talk so much that really I think "defending the hobby" and "dodging talking about it" can be one in the same, but I would be fucking amazed if someone could prove to me they'd never seen this behavior; it's that common.

Ghost

@ZombieGenesis said in The Case Against Real PBs:

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

"ridiculous argument about Sporty Spice"

This was posted as I was writing my post. I'll counter a ridiculous argument with another one, did you ask for consent from all the people you jerked off to in high school? Did you tell them you were doing it? No? Did it affect their lives in any way that you were doing it?

In fact, I did.

But the Sporty Spice argument stands. In fact, your straw man about whether or not I got consent forms from some bikini model applies! No, I wouldn't tell said model or whatever I tugged to when I was a kid that I did so because it's creepy, somewhat violating, and uncomfortable.

Whether or not I did X when I was a kid has no bearing on whether or not the argument I have presented makes it okay now.

Ghost

@ZombieGenesis said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Did you tell them you were doing it? No? Did it affect their lives in any way that you were doing it?

Question.

Would it affect your life at all if someone you didn't know admitted to masturbating to pictures of you? What if they told you not only did they do kink-stuff using your likeness, but simulated a "relationship" with another person who was also gratified by your image?

An old player I used to MU with once told me (after being apart for years) that they made our FireflyMush characters into a sims game that had been running for years using sex mods, and went into detail about how many kids they had, etc. I can tell you honestly that someone emulating ME emulating a celebrity for years with all kinds of sex shit on their ooc end was really uncomfortable. I also clammed up all the time when I did TS and got a page about how they fapped to it.

In fact, I'd say over 70% of the interpersonal bullshit I ever got into in this hobby was always related to either me trying to flee for my life from a creepy player or other gross OOC boundary violations, so...I'm inclined to believe my own experiences, trust me.

I feel we are all logical and reasonable enough to agree that it's generally not okay to simulate that level of intense stuff using another person's likeness as a puppet, and that "if the victim didnt know it's okay" is rarely a valid argument involving sexual anything.

Maybe it's just me and I've been away from this shit long enough to step back from a 10,000 foot level and analyze how fucking weird this community can be. I think there are delusions and addictions at play and a lot of work goes into defending the outlet, especially when RL isn't cutting it. I've been there. I get it. There are just these pockets of weirdness and whenever myself or anyone else points them out there's a lot of "playing defense" around those topics. Very bizarre, and I'm grateful I don't draw from the hobby for a social outlet, anymore outside of occasional forum stuff.

Devrex

@Ghost: you clearly run with a very different crowd than I've run with.

Could you please tone down 1) the depiction of absolutely everyone in this hobby as some sort of sicko, including, by implication, the very people you're debating this with and 2) the extremely graphic language you're using to describe certain acts, as that was intensely uncomfortable to read?

You don't really know the motivations of everyone who uses PBs or likes them for every reason they like them, and while it's possible AI art could be a better choice, there were many constructive ways that you could have said that that did not have to include making everyone who has ever used a PB feel like garbage.

reimesu

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Question.
Would it affect your life at all if someone you didn't know admitted to masturbating to pictures of you? What if they told you not only did they do kink-stuff using your likeness, but simulated a "relationship" with another person who was also gratified by your image?

You are now describing every person who's ever been involuntarily put in someone's spank bank. Which has nothing to do with gaming and everything to do with people finding each other attractive. It's a human condition, not some weird gaming thing.

Warma Sheen

@Ghost Most of this sounds like your own issues and hangups, not everyone else's.

People were using PBs for decades. It wasn't an issue before. AI art doesn't suddenly make that bad. It is just another option in a slew of options.

People have sexual thoughts. Sometimes people are in those sexual thoughts. That's been a thing forever. It isn't an issue as long as you keep it to yourself. Its part of the social contract, being as we all understand we can't control people's thoughts, but people can control their own actions. It is pretty disturbing that you repeatedly base your arguments around concepts wherein this basic concept doesn't exist. Your hypotheticals are all creepy, regardless of content, because each one supposes one person unloading unsolicited sexual thoughts to another about them or a celebrity, or a mutual acquaintance, or anyone else ever. None of that is okay. All of it is creepy.

Ghost

@Devrex said in The Case Against Real PBs:

include making everyone who has ever used a PB feel like garbage

Let's be honest, here.

None of the same boring people with the same boring, predictive cycles "felt like garbage" about this. None of the same boring people giving each other high fives about cleverly worded insults really give a fuck. Why are you shocked at this point? Is it fun trying to find new ways to say directly disrespectful things to me while I don't?

Commit to discussing the topic without making it about me and fuck off. I started the topic. I got biases. I'm not gonna attack people who aren't attacking me. It's how conversation works and I'm open to it.

Devrex

@Ghost Well, now you're sinking to the level of personal attack. Being told to fuck off, specifically.

You made me feel like garbage.

I will commit to discussing the topic. Here you go.

Constructive example of what you could have said:

"Now that AI art is an option, is it time to phase out using actors and real people for our character art? Perhaps that would be more respectful to the real actors we're using now, and would avoid any potential that they could come across our RPs and be upset about how their face is being used."

There. Done.

See, YOU got on here and insulted everyone on here. You used the most graphic, disgusting terms possible to come on and make veiled accusations about everyone here and everyone who plays MUSHes. And for no real reason other than perhaps needing an outlet to unleash some emotion.

reimesu

@Ghost Stop verbally attacking people, please. You're being called out by a number of people because you used emotionally charged language to prove a point that most people don't agree with. Telling everyone to fuck off is not constructive.

Derp

@Ghost

My dude. You’re a bit out over your skis here. Take a breath, find your chill. Reasonable people can disagree in reasonable ways. Your examples and language do not currently fall within the bounds of “reasonable”, nor in fact “mildly constructive.”

Take it down a few notches.

Misadventure

Glad that was worked out.

faraday

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

I would be (f-ing) amazed if someone could prove to me they'd never seen this behavior; it's that common.

I have no idea how to "prove" it to you, but I have never witnessed or personally experienced this behavior outside debates like these. Does that mean it's less common than you think? More prevalent on certain games / kinds of games than others? Am I just sheltered? Who knows. We don't exactly have a robust data set, only anecdotes.

And I don't doubt your anecdotes; I just don’t reach the same conclusion you do from them.

Yes, some people are creepers about PBs. But is it any less creepy if somebody makes up a "honey trap" PC tailor-made to seduce another, then commits obsessively to doing so? Or if somebody asks you to make up a tall, hunky Viking type because that’s their “thing”? Or if they stalk whoever’s playing Batman? I think not. Problematic behavior is problematic behavior, irrespective of PBs.

I also can’t help but wonder if you have the same vehement objections to fanfic? I wouldn't be keen to rush up to William Shatner to tell him about the existence of Kirk/McCoy slash, but I don't think that means the writers/readers of said fic are horrible humans for imagining those characters (and by extension the actors) in different relationships.

I certainly agree that our culture's obsession with celebrities is kind of weird and in many ways problematic. I just don't see MUs as being exceptional compared to everything else. Certainly not a point where I feel we need to ban the practice.

Side note - personally I don't think any of this gets better with people asking Midjourney to "make someone who looks like Christian Bale in a Battlestar Galactica uniform" (because c'mon you know that's what a lot of people are going to do.) If anything, the fact that it might accidentally be using some regular non-celebrity person's face (because of the way the training data is harvested) makes it even more problematic to me. But that's probably a separate debate.

ETA - Believe it or not, there are players who don't RP TS. What if a whole game banned it (and hypothetically had a way to enforce it, like no private scenes)? Would that somehow make PBs okay? Not advocating for that, mind you, just a thought experiment.

Ghost

@faraday said in The Case Against Real PBs:

ETA - Believe it or not, there are players who don't RP TS. What if a whole game banned it (and hypothetically had a way to enforce it, like no private scenes)? Would that somehow make PBs okay? Not advocating for that, mind you, just a thought experiment.

I don't have an issue with TS, but constructively I think some people pass on players who don't TS; I've actually had players suddenly get electrical storms when I turned down TS. So there could be a pocket of people in there that others who didn't partake in TS weren't exposed to. What I can't understand is how many people I know who have also had similar stories (some 20+ people) and the number of people who claim not to have had incidents like these at all. I guess it might just be sampling

Alas, no, I don't recommend any MU to ban private scenes or TS, because we've seen time and time again that no one plays those games. So scratch that. All I'm saying is that for X reasons my preference is to read or view art of original characters than to see the same 45 actors used in every MU (I want to see creativity)...but also for the reasons (snide or not) in my OP. If I were omnipotent and ran a game my rule would be "No actor/actress/model PBs" and I believe the byproduct would be an environment (not that it would thrive at all even if I did so under an alias) with less of the issues I described, or at the very least a more interesting and original environment.

Subsequently, as a TTRPG GM I've been promoting use of original or Ai art, and it's pretty regular that I don't allow PCs from other games or templated characters (at least in games that don't have novice players). I think the overall experience is better for everyone when new things are created. Ownership of something organically grown so-to-speak, I feel, benefits everyone.

Ghost

@Misadventure said in The Case Against Real PBs:

Glad that was worked out.

Glad what worked out?

Ghost

@Derp said in The Case Against Real PBs:

@Ghost

My dude. You’re a bit out over your skis here. Take a breath, find your chill. Reasonable people can disagree in reasonable ways. Your examples and language do not currently fall within the bounds of “reasonable”, nor in fact “mildly constructive.”

Take it down a few notches.

Cool cool. I read.

faraday

@Ghost said in The Case Against Real PBs:

I don't have an issue with TS, but constructively I think some people pass on players who don't TS; I've actually had players suddenly get electrical storms when I turned down TS.

I don't doubt there are some people who might pass, but for many years now I've make it clear to anyone potentially engaging in relationship RP that I'm a strictly FTB girl, and I've never had any shortage of RP.

I do have an issue with TS - not out of moral judgment (hey, whatever floats your boat) but because it seems to be the root of NO END of drama and toxic behavior on these games - including some of the things you've described here. But I agree banning it is all kinds of impractical and ill-advised. Also beside the point here.

I also have an issue with Midjourney. Though I am not an artist, I have friends who are, and I support them being up in arms about the unlicensed use of their work for-profit on a massive scale. That just goes to show that everyone has their own ethical lines in the sand. I don't think yours re: PBs is any more or less valid than mine re: MJ.

Ghost

@faraday Yeah. I'm on the fence about AiArt/Midjourney. Granted, I don't think people who generate art via Ai qualify as an "artist" (for some reason people have started to think the Earth is flat, so let's not go crazy equating people with search engine skills as Frida Kahlo), and I think it's generally okay for RPGs and character art for RPG games, but the impact it's having on paying artists is wrong. I don't like where it is going.

Yeah...I dunno. I think at the end of the day the worst of the hobby comes down to sex, jealousy, bullying, and complications with mental illness. Obviously, due to sexual harassment I've had to endure on numerous occasions, my hot button has been considering ways to affect the negative behaviors associated with sexual harassment...which everyone benefits from. I believe the "Shang" roleplayer mixing with players like you has created an environment where some players can't help but try to bring Shang with them mingle with people that aren't about graphic sexual roleplay or OOC flirtation.

100% agree that the topic of anything relating to sex or IC relationships is the cause of endless amounts of drama in the community. Snide me says "must be that whole 'it's just roleplay!' mantra". Realistic me says that while I enjoy kicking at that box of "denial spiders" (because let's be fair, it affects outsiders, too and we wish some of these people would just evolve and stop), it's worthless waiting for this behavior to stop (or even asking) because it seems ingrained in a lot of personal RL needs/deficiencies/issues/etc. I've been there. I get it.

So my dislike of how some people utilize PBs as a sexual lure/object slips into that. Unfortunately, with this community, there's no way to resolve this stuff, because the hobby presents itself as an open-to-the-public environment. It's easy to let people in the door on these games, but hard to keep unwanted players out.