A.I. in the Community

Ghost

A friend (who still plays) and I were talking, and the topic of A.I. (and how the MU community approaches it) came up. I thought it would be an interesting topic to throw down, because as it was explained to me:

Using AI for poses is considered BAD
Using AI for art is considered less bad
It depends on the game, but whether or not users can use AI is now a regularly policy-type thing.

I won't expound, but my general feeling on the topic is "this is all amateur stuff that is beneath that level of accountability", but I'm curious how others feel, or how it has affected games. Do people get scrutinized by other players for being a potential Ai user?

I quit this stuff before GenAi was available, so really, what's the MU community like in a post-AI world?

Juniper

As players in a writing hobby, it's looked down upon to outsource writing to AI because the writing is kind of the point.

AI images are just visual aids produced by people who are primarily writers, not artists.

If we were a community of artists, the use of AI art would be less appropriate.

Ghost

@Juniper I get this in concept, yes.

But over the years, the emphasis on actual writing has waned, replacing entire chunks with PBs instead of descriptions, pictures instead of clothing/scene descriptions, and in some cases using the entire personality of the PB as the character itself.

So I guess my argument is: if the emphasis is less on writing and more on titillating your writing partner, then does it really matter where the amateur gets their content from? No one is being paid, and since it's possible that at least one person in the diminishing community is 100% catfish (which I assure you someone is) then...who cares?

I'm sure there's a few people who write 8 paragraph poses who consider themselves an "artiste", but anyone who actually reads books knows that a LOT of this stuff wouldn't qualify as writing outside of the community. Ai might actually improve poses. So...I guess I don't get why people care.

Edit/example:

I'm playing on an unlicensed Star Wars game using the d20 Saga system...unlicensed and unapproved including miles of copyrighted material in game and on wiki...unlicensed.
I could be roleplaying with someone who claims to be a 34 year old single white lady, but I'm taking it on faith they're not a bi-curious 16 year old male
both of our characters are using unlicensed photography and the unapproved use of the likeness of 2 PBs
The other character us using Melanie Laurent as a PB and their actual character name from Inglorious Basterds "Emmanuelle Mimieux" and roleplaying them like the character in the movie (true story btw)
Everyone in the community is an amateur, so I go in realize they may not be any good at "writing" so I end up with 8 paragraph poses filled with grammatical errors, run-on sentences, and weird thesaurus choices as the other writer fails to realize that most novels read at a Jr High level and that good text is concise and descriptive.

And then...

You find out the other person used Ai content and it ruins the entire experience
^ this I don't get.

At the risk of sounding snide, this is a waning "writing" hobby using 30+ year old technology that thrives on the use of unlicensed game content and imagery to avoid "necessary yet replacable with pictures" writing, filled entirely with unpaid amateurs who regularly gab about how great their writing is who regularly make fun of bad poses (and after years of bad description shaming moved to images), and the top prize for using Ai to touch up your poses is...others believing you can actually write.

I say fuck it, use it.

Misadventure

@Ghost propbably the impression that you have someone eleses attention, for at least as long as it takes to read a pose.

If you want to focus on the sexual element, I'd say keep an eye on the porrn industry, and see if AI generated material takes over. The point being that RP and sexual fantasy are exactly that, and sometimes an idea that throws it off basically ruins it.

For example, if a ST writes something maybe it's a cue or clue to the potential of the scene. If an AI writes it, it has no intent.

I'm sure that the generatiion born now will be much more comfortable with the idea, and their children will think its as typical as the current youth think of their own culture with smartphones and mental health being more open and public.

Its an easy path, but humans never take the easy path, right?

I'd be okay with using AI to analyse ones own writing or maybe the final scene, especially if it might point out story structure and hooks etc with suggestions on how to make them work better.

Ghost

@Misadventure said in A.I. in the Community:

For example, if a ST writes something maybe it's a cue or clue to the potential of the scene. If an AI writes it, it has no intent.

But if the ST generates the content that includes that intent, the end result is the same, right?

I guess I don't see any issues with its use so long as it's an enhancement and not a replacement, though the idea of an Ai player to see how it works sounds cool

Misadventure

My very little experience talking to people using AI to write
(one author chgecking their work for issues, one GM having AI write up descriptions and events that aren't /intended/ to impact play unless a player runs with them, and a player trying to see if the AI can provide enjoyable responses or a cohesively written summary of the scene)

none of them have tried to have the AI correctly produce exact context that would make information meaningful. That is in part due to the length limits they work with for prompts and the AI's memory. I know that mnore resources could be made available and rules abnout what to never for get could be put in, but I've not seen it.

Can an AI suggest that an NPC is proud, and put in 2-3 details in a scene the players could play on that without being explicit? Even if prompted to do so?

I dont know.

I think I would be more accepting of a ST using AI to help produce content details and well phrased poses. On one hand, more, organized, content would help the STs. On the other it might eat at the unstated and often unconcious bias that if a ST says it, it has weight, especially if they are a staff ST. Like the results will impact the setting more. It might undermine that sense of value even if it didnt alter the actual weight.

faraday

@Ghost said in A.I. in the Community:

So I guess my argument is: if the emphasis is less on writing and more on titillating your writing partner,

I don't think this practice is as widespread as you assert it is. (Though doubtless it does exist.)

I am against generative AI on principle, so I don't like to see it used anywhere.

Yes, many games fall into the "fanfic" realm of copyright, but IMHO fanfic has never actually harmed anyone's livelihood. Gen AI is actively doing so on an unimaginable scale. The majority of the tools are making millions (billions?) of dollars on the backs of stolen work products, including my own. It's also horrible for the environment in terms of the computing power used. And the prompts people use are leveraged to improve the tools, participating in the destruction.

I hate them. I think they're dangerous.

There is no "harmless fun" involvement in using them, but I realize most people don't understand or agree with that, so I don't translate my hatred to them. It still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

ETA: I also disagree that replacing a static description with a PB is an evidence of writing waning, since most novels/stories don't pause the action to give you a multi-paragraph data dump on the character's looks and clothing either. That was always a MUSH quirk. But that's a separate convo.

Ganymede

To me, using AI to play a game that relies on writing makes about as much sense as watching gamers on YouTube play.

Like, okay, I can understand why you would be entertained, but I find it immeasurably boring watching others have fun that I could be having.

On an unrelated sidenote, I also hate watching golf. Also, I don't have time to play with myself.

Derp

I think that AI can serve useful functions, if used as a tool and not a crutch. AI can really help you solidify grammar and specific writing practices, help you learn to engage in a conversation (especially for pick-your-second-language chatbots or whatever), and just help you get more comfortable with putting words on a screen. It won't ever really entirely replace the creativity of a storyteller, but it can help a storyteller improve their craft.

Ghost

@faraday said in A.I. in the Community:

I don't think this practice is as widespread as you assert it is. (Though doubtless it does exist.)

Not being on the games anymore, I'm not actually sure how widespread it is or isn't, but thought to ask (since I think it's an interesting topic).

Is there anyone anonymous who uses it under the radar who wants to chime in?

Ghost

@Ganymede said in A.I. in the Community:

hate watching golf

A lot of my childhood is getting kicked outside (off the tv/Ninetendo) so my dad could watch golf. When I was older, I was kicked off the TV to mow the lawn so my dad could watch golf. Then my dad made me caddy for him a few times.

Now, when my coworkers go to TopGolf I just watch, because I'm so biased against golf now, I won't even swing lol

Juniper

@Ghost said in A.I. in the Community:

Is there anyone anonymous who uses it under the radar who wants to chime in?

Not exactly but I experimented with RPing with AI dungeon, put quite a bit of work into prompt design and still got bored out of my mind because AI writes like AI. Passive, repetitive, and using a lot of words to say almost nothing at all.

I've also mocked players (and even storytellers) for using it because you can 100% tell, especially with dialogue.

hobos

You really can tell, yeah. It's like the text equivalent of the uncanny valley.

Also, even if it wasn't, I don't think I'd want to play with it. It'd feel weird to know that some human didn't want to play the actual game with me and instead was using a robot to interact?

Kind of like if you walk up to someone IRL, and offer a handshake, and instead of shaking your hand themselves, that person instructs a robot butler to shake your hand for them.

For game lore written by AI, it's the same feeling, as if you want to walk into a beautiful palace constructed by human beings but instead you're walking through a hologram generated by a robot. Maybe it doesn't really look that different but there's a totally different vibe.

A long time ago in college I remember a discussion about AI where we were considering if robots could ever reach human levels of creativity. The consensus was that human creativity was measurable and logical and robots could achieve it, eventually. But I disagreed, because I don't think human creativity is actually measurable and logical. I think we don't know what we know. So we can't code it into a robot. There's a whole dimension of sapient consciousness that lends weight we can barely even sense, let alone measure and encode, to the things we think about.

You know that feeling you get sometimes when a vibe is "off"? Sometimes vibes don't align, and sometimes they do, and sometimes they're just unnoticeable. But a robot doesn't have conscious vibes. It's empty.

So, the human consciousness behind a piece of artwork, whether it's visual or verbal/written, is immeasurable and invaluable, and shouldn't be discounted.

Macha

I mean for me, I don't understand using AI to write, but it makes more sense for me with art/visuals?

Like say I like Angelina Jolie, but she's not quiiiiiite right for a character I have in mind, I can use AI to tweak it? I've been playing with it, anyhow. Not that I have use for it, but it can be fun to do when I am waiting for ADHD meds to kick in.

Juniper

I think the killing blow for text generation apologists is that RP with AIs is already accessible. If it's so good, or better than human RP, or indistinguishable, why not go RP with AI? Why bother using AI as a crutch to interact with human RPers? It's like saying AI is good enough to serve up to other people but not good enough for you. Which is just kinda dishonest. People know the shortfalls of AI, they just want to use it as a shortcut to access the juice they really want (the other player's response).

Warma Sheen

@Ghost said in A.I. in the Community:

@faraday said in A.I. in the Community:

I don't think this practice is as widespread as you assert it is. (Though doubtless it does exist.)

Is there anyone anonymous who uses it under the radar who wants to chime in?

Its really being discussed as though it is black and white. It isn't always. But I understand that there are certain people who are just fundamentally against AI and aren't going to want to give any quarter.

Just using AI to substitute for writing isn't a great way to go about things at all. But if you use it as a tool, it can be great. Not everyone's writing is good. Some people are awful and I imagine there has been far more mocking of people's crappy writing than there has been of their use of AI. So if someone's writing can be enhanced and improved by AI, I am all for that. I am not at all opposed to great writing, and I honestly don't care if it comes from an AI or a person.

I don't have the time or inclination to really think the thought through, but playing video games is a valid form of entertainment wherein you don't have to interact with a human. Someone programed the video game. Just like someone programmed the AI.

If someone uses AI to tell good stories on a text game, then to me, it doesn't matter much at all. But that generally involves having to write text themselves then have the AI improve it. If they are just copy pasting AI responses, then it probably won't be good writing. Parts of it might be. But other parts will either not make sense, not fit the story, or be super repetitive, which is common.

At the end of the day, if the writing in the story is good, I don't care what tools were used, wholly or otherwise. I am entertained.

I get that not everyone holds the same opinion, but I think its hilarious that people would turn away good RP regardless of where it comes from when people have been complaining both about not being able to get good RP for decades while also having to deal with fickle/irrational/psychotic/etc personalities in the hobby.

@Juniper said in A.I. in the Community:

If it's so good, or better than human RP, or indistinguishable, why not go RP with AI?

If it were, people would. I know I would. If I could avoid some of the headaches of dealing with certain individuals and still have good RP, that would be absolutely lovely.

But it isn't.

Not on its own. Its still a tool that a person has to use to make it truly effective. And even doing that is still a skill that comes from a person.