Posts made by Arkandel

@Rook The difference between MSB and WORA is huge. I didn't like WORA, I found it too rude.

@Rook Little known secret: WORA (and MSB) plays favorites.

Okay, that's not exactly a secret.

@Ganymede The strange thing is that games historically haven't taken that route. It's weird.

"In the name of fairness we'll let that asshole chase away good players, although we know he's an asshole, but we're not 100% sure about it/they haven't done anything particularly horrible this week".

It makes no sense.

@Rook said in MU and Alternate Channels:

@Arkandel
So you would no-contact two players after one incident, to the point of banning public RP?

Nope, that's not what I said. What I did say is that staff have to make difficult choices based on - often, and necessarily - limited information.

You glossed over (for the sake of argument, I get it) the 'why' and 'what' that the Aggressor did, in your example. So help me understand your example here. Are you saying that the Victim would write up logs that never happened? Yes, that is something that Staff will be hard-pressed to catch or even prove, I agree. That is a hell of a lot of effort and underhandedness, a surprising amount actually, just to 'take someone out' of the IC scene for your own personal advancement. Shit, is that the type of crap that we're talking about, the extremes that happen out there?

Although faking logs are a thing that's happened, let's exclude that possibility for now. In my experience it's usually hearsay, third party testimonies, maybe a disdainful or dismissing attitude on public channels, indications of OOC metagaming, occasional convenient lack of dice rolling when it's in their favor, whatever it is. You know this stuff.

So what I'm saying is if there's no smoking gun where the guy sent someone a dick pic or whatever then staff need to make a call; is the person contacting them being too sensitive? Are they actually trying to use them to get out of an IC bind? Or are they simply justified and there's actual dickery going on?

And if so, what do they do to fix it if it's not clear enough? You said you don't like no-contact rules, but what do you go with? You're staff, you got to make up your mind - even inaction is a decision.

In fact inaction is a very common decision.

Also read The Sandman, dammit. Do it before you do anything else. It starts a bit slow but it grows to be awesome and then it gets another level in awesomeness, and then another.

@Rook said in MU and Alternate Channels:

This is something I wish people would enforce and expect from each other a lot more than most seem to. If Bob goes onto another medium and talks shit about a game, that game has the right to hold him to it, given evidence. If Bob is talking shit about a player, that player equally has every right to avoid Bob for whatever OOC reason.

You know what the real bitch of an issue from staff's perspective is, though? That some of the shittier players realize this, and they will use it in their favor, yet it's them who have to be able to tell the difference.

So we're in an IC political spat and I'm butthurt because I'm losing, so now I want there to be a 'no contact' clause between us; coming up with some sort of reasoning for it, creating that narrative even, isn't very hard - but how are staff to decide if that's indeed the case? And then who gets inconvenienced the most? How is this enforced? If I'm in a scene with other important characters and you can't come in because it'll be interpreted as aggression then you just got screwed over, didn't you? And if the ruling is lighter - maybe it's not a full 'no contact' clause - you'll be still walking on eggshells all of a sudden because any action you take against my character, anything you say about me, could be seen as you being a dick... when you didn't do anything!

But if staff don't do anything they also risk the chance I might be telling the truth.

The lines aren't as nice and neat as we'd like them to be.

@Tinuviel Look, for all we look for supervillains on MSB the truth is most people aren't out to create utter havoc and be dicks to everyone around them. The majority of the time it's just us nerds, some with assorted deficiencies in social skills, being awkward as shit to each other and coming off the wrong way.

That's why I advise staff to have more tools in their bag'o'tricks than the banhammer. It'll still come in handy eventually, they should have it for those occasions, but not every case will be about a complete shithead; the majority won't be.

@surreality said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

There have been times I have not been self-aware on this front, and while it was a hell of a long time ago now, I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for an instant for hating me hardcore if they only knew me from back then, or that was their only experience of knowing me/etc.

Yeah, I get you. And if it helps there have been times when a critical mass of disgruntlement and indignant butthurt had turned me into an (even bigger) pain to be around. Sometimes a break helps; and I assume by the fact I haven't heard again from people I know who were in assorted similar situations that sometimes those breaks are permanent, too.

But we've had this conversation before in private so you already know what my ultimate response is... you need to take care of yourself first, because no one else is. We all have our shit, our agendas, our perspectives - but none of us lives in your head or walks in your shoes.

In the context of this thread that means if there's someone we might not like we need to know how to deal with it, first and foremost. Staff won't necessarily do it, our friends won't necessarily be able to buffer us, and our emotional capacity might not be as inexhaustible as we'd like; we need to own this shit ourselves.

@Tinuviel said in MU and Alternate Channels:

@Arkandel
If you're sexually harassing someone outside of the game, that's the responsibility of the people that run the service you're using. Not game staff's. If they do it on the game then it's an issue, but that's not the point.

If I was staff and you came to say - with some degree of evidence - someone has been following you from game to game creating characters to hit on you then I would have a fairly stern chat with them explaining they are expected to not do it on this game.

Staff response can be preventative as much as it can be punitive. If a line doesn't already exist but it should then create it.

The point is where is the limit to where staff should act, not whether they can act. If I accuse you of dog-fighting ring organisation on here, but don't do diddly on the game, why should game staff be expected to act? They can act, of course. They don't strictly need a reason to act. But should they?

Again, as staff, it's your responsibility to keep your game fun for as many of your players as you can. One person can - and has - ruined games before.

So if you have to choose between that one guy who's trolling everyone, spreads rumors for his own amusement and creates chaos, and the multiple perfectly legitimate players who are not doing these things but who are being chased away by these antics, what do you do?

I'm not saying all cases are as cut and dried, only that you only need to look after your game's interests, not any particular problematic player's virtual rights, especially if they demonstratively don't respect those of others.

@Tinuviel said in MU and Alternate Channels:

@surreality The problem with having to enforce good behaviour elsewhere is that it can be a slippery slope. I think I'm using that phrase correctly.

You and I are talking. I go onto another game to talk shit about you to a mutually known person. Is that staff's responsibility?
What about here? We talk shit about people all the time. Is posting all the vile things X person has done not harassment? Does the game's staff have to respond?

I agree with you that using alternative platforms to cheat is bad and should be dealt with as such - but the terminus of that situation happens on the game. The cheating happens on the game itself, even if the arrangements are made elsewhere.

It's not really a slippery slope if what's happening is actionable. Think of the effect, not the cause, and usually you'll be on the right track; metagaming is a problem, and whether you're doing it over pages or on Hangouts is just a matter of semantics. Sexual harassment is a big deal, and whether I'm stalking you in pages on the game or it started on Google Docs and if I now suddenly create alts to follow you around from sphere to sphere it changes nothing.

Not liking someone isn't actionable. If you tell @surreality "you know, I fucking hate Arkandel" it's the same regardless of the medium; if you spread lies "you know, Arkandel was in prison for starting a dog-fighting ring" then that's a problem no matter where you said it.

There's no new slope to slide down here.

@surreality To be frank, although it's hard to stay detached all the time I strive to not have expectations of people either. A fair amount of cynicism pays off, especially online where folks are out for themselves, and words like 'fairness' are naive concepts. They really are; one doesn't get what they put in, and if that's what they want then it's a much better idea to invest their precious time elsewhere. Circumstances and yes, convenience trump everything else.

It really pays off to keep a bit of distance from the material we're dealing with, I think. It's the essential difference in the end between us ranting on a thread like this about "people we don't like" and raging to everyone who'll listen, or who's forced to, about the motherfuckers we despise because they wronged us.

But to get to what you're saying... the reason you might want a break now is often the same one that brings you back in the end. Was that all for nothing? Don't you want to find out if it was, says that voice at the back of your head? And so you return.

@Ghost said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

Depending on who you ask, the level of value as to what is on these games and how lasting that value is, even if the game is only open 6 months, varies from person to person. It is, however, very likely that these unapologetic repeat offenders view this hobby as sandcastles made of ether and code where people merely donate their time, and that there is no actual, lasting value aside from what your own self seeks to get out of it.

There is no value we can get out of games other than entertainment and, if we're lucky, some friends made on the way.

It's a really common fallacy in online gaming when it takes up big chunks of our time that there needs to somehow be some sort of return for that investment; is it possible after all that you'll sink 20+ hours of your week (which is easy at 3 hours a night) into something, into anything and see 'nothing' for it at the end? Yes. Yes it is.

I was there when WoW launched its first expansion. There had been players actually shocked - and I mean you'd see reactions ranging from stunned to genuinely angry - because they had sank months of their lives getting amazing gear with finely tuned stats... and now casuals were getting better stuff than that dropping from random regular mobs on opening night. Well, yep, that's a thing. Just like it's a thing in MU* that you could bust your ass for a while only to see the game go down. There's no permanence, implied let alone promised; we get what we put in.

But having said that it IS damn hard to not have that subconscious expectation regardless. You're doing all this shit, it can't really have been for nothing... right?

Right?

@Coin It's only 8 episodes this season? Bummer.

@Bossi There's a new new Victus already?

@Catsmeow It's kind of a touchy area. Casual racism has turned this easy question into a minefield.

I get where you're coming from though. Sometimes I go to greek restaurants and I can't just ask people I'm damn sure are greek if that's the case, and even if they are there's no guarantee they speak the language. And that's with an ethnic group I'm part of and when I can be reasonably certain no one will be offended if I asked.

@Apos I was only considering it - but if I'm unwelcome somewhere along with Theno then at least I'm in good company.

No problem!

Well @Rook, there are at least two potential answers here. One is more optimistic than the other.

The first explanation is you want to be truthful and honest; you don't intend to mislead anyone into playing with you under false pretenses, or to have to lie to protect your 'secret' from innocent questions ('hey, have you ever played WoD before?').

The second is you want to put your name out there as a feeler. Is the community ready for your return? Do you still have a support base? Or are you starting out with just baggage and obstacles in the way?

I'd consider it. We'll see how it goes.

@dontpanda Well, that was a good call.

@Roz Huh. Any idea why?