Posts made by Coin

@Coin said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

@HelloProject said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

@Derp I don't really understand the necessity of "all or nothing". Everyone having their particular preferences of what they want to play and what they don't want to play is basically RP 101.

Just straight up dictating what objectively does or doesn't happen in the world just seems kind of bizarre and heavy-handed to me. I'm not sure why expecting people to be adults, which has literally been the cornerstone of every good MU I've ever played, is so outrageous that one needs to finely dictate in IC terms why certain events don't happen. That's just kind of really weird.

Like, plenty of games say "We don't accept these kinds of themes", but they don't go "Oh this never happens 'cause unicorn magic" or something. That's just lazy writing in my opinion.

Can you imagine if Full House went out of its way to explain why there is a lack of brutal murder in the series?

This may be the single most coherent post/thought I've ever seen you present.

And the Full House analogy is spot on.

@HelloProject said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

@Derp I don't really understand the necessity of "all or nothing". Everyone having their particular preferences of what they want to play and what they don't want to play is basically RP 101.

Just straight up dictating what objectively does or doesn't happen in the world just seems kind of bizarre and heavy-handed to me. I'm not sure why expecting people to be adults, which has literally been the cornerstone of every good MU I've ever played, is so outrageous that one needs to finely dictate in IC terms why certain events don't happen. That's just kind of really weird.

Like, plenty of games say "We don't accept these kinds of themes", but they don't go "Oh this never happens 'cause unicorn magic" or something. That's just lazy writing in my opinion.

Can you imagine if Full House went out of its way to explain why there is a lack of brutal murder in the series?

This may be the single most coherent post/thought I've ever seen you present.

@surreality said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

@Coin said in Emotional separation from fictional content:

That said, I think every game does a good job of outlining these themes in the books and if you read the books and think you can handle it, more power to you--but I don't think "violence" is a tag needed for a scene centered around werewolves, for example.

I'd actually say a 'violence' tag is almost too general to be relevant on its own. OK, sure, if the scene is otherwise described as a garden party, noting that it isn't going to remain (literally?) hearts and flowers land is not a bad thing.

Otherwise, 'violence' on its own is not typically a trigger -- this is sorta like the 'includes mature content' to some extent. There's just not enough information to make a decision here. Specific forms of violence -- 'child abuse', 'domestic violence', 'sexual assault', 'torture' -- are common triggers, however, but someone horrified by one may not give a damn about the other three. A label of simply 'violence' is so vague it just doesn't give people the information they actually need to make their decision about participation.

If you're triggered by "gore", which is an example you used, so I will switch to that--don't play Werewolf.

We like our gorey shit, over here in Werewolf.

All this said, some people just pick the wrong damn game.

If you have severe issues with graphic depictions of violence, but you choose to play Werewolf, I'm going to stare at you. Same for Vampire, especially if you've got severe issues with depictions of submission, control, objectification, and I would go as far as to say psychological abuse. Ghouls are an integral part of Vampire, especially on MUs. I knew someone who'd been kidnapped, and they really wanted to play Changeling. They lasted two days. Two days.

If you have things that trigger you, really know the game you're playing, because those things might be integral to theme, some in glorfying ways (violence, usually), some in condemning, but still hard to process ways (kidnapping, psychological abuse) and sometimes... casually, which can sometimes be the worst.

That said, I think every game does a good job of outlining these themes in the books and if you read the books and think you can handle it, more power to you--but I don't think "violence" is a tag needed for a scene centered around werewolves, for example.

Beyond that, on a MU you're going to have to deal with other people playing their shit in public. A werewolf player isn't going to stop and ask, "is everyone okay if I pose tearing this person apart?" And a vampire player isn't going to not treat their ghoul like an object (if they would IC), nor ask if it's okay, in a public vampire space, where that's the cultural norm.

I'm all for trigger warnings and what not, but there is a context. You can choose not to play a game whose themes directly take you to your trauma.

BTW, "But in real life you can choose to never leave your house, too," is a stupid comparison and I am saying so before anyone makes it. These things are not comparable in scope or meaning.

lulzwhut at hating hashtags.

Like, I get it, a lot of people are supremely annoying with their (ab)use of hashtags, but what hashtags actually are are just an easy coded/visual was to recognize tags, which have been around for. fucking. ever.

Hashtags was just coders finding a symbol that wasn't widely used and applying it for a purpose, much the same way we use @ here to activate the code that calls up usernames, and how if you preface an active username with @ you get a link to their profile, and they get notified.

I'm just like, lulzwhut, hating hashtags. You can be grumpy about people who abuse them or tag stupid shit, but the hashtag is functional within the structure of how the internet and social media work.

Now, if you hate the internet or social media, well, have I got bad news for yoooooooooooooooooooou...

@Tinuviel said in FCBD: Secret Empire:

Well. Is there nudity? What is it? Who's it by? What's it about? What's so bad about it?

In order of importance.

No. Marvel Special Event. Spencer. Captain America has always secretly been HYDRA and is now the leader. Self-explanatory.

@Wizz Also, one thing that would be made easier by having the Auspices be universal (or close enough) is that if we wanted to add a custom breed (like the Camazotz, or something else) it wouldn't be a matter of creating a TON of new mechanical content. Only, like, half a ton. Heh.

@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:

@Coin
Shadow Gifts should definitely be universal, and really just combing through ALL the old books for salvageable bits (including nWoD Forsaken) would probably save us a ton of time, but I ask because I'm pretty sure most of the breedbooks have auspice Gifts, right?

Yeah, but in general those Auspice Gifts tend to be, IIRC, just sort of all over the place, and a lot of the time it's just 'see X Gift' because they aren't unique. I can look. I think I have all the breedbooks.

Ultimately I have zero problem just moving forward with your suggestion and applying auspice across the board and if you're already feeling like doing the homebrew thing would just lead to burnout I trust your experience, it's a lot easier and straightforward to make cosmetic changes to each auspice (Sun Gifts instead of Moon Gifts, just for the obvious example) but making unique things is something I can't help but be enthusiastic about, haha. I would like to see your Camazotz stuff if you've got it online!

I love making custom content, yeah, but the effort involved does lead to burnout eventually. Sometimes it's just wiser to cut corners.

I'll link you.

@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:

@Coin
Do you mean the Auspice Benefits, or the Moon Gifts?

The rest of the template is very simple and you could probably mix and match gift lists and auspice skills super easy, but I can definitely see why writing an exclusive homebrew Gift list for each and every one and thinking of a unique exploit that sometimes-is sometimes-isn't even really all that mechanical would be tricky.

Yeah, beyond tricky, I'd say.

Out of curiosity, how hard would it be to go through the old Breedbooks and convert one of those Gift lifts to CoD?

Not very. they would need adjustments in intensity and whatnot, but not that difficult at all. I would actually be much more interested in mining the Breedbooks for Gift concepts that could be applied to all the species. Shadow Gifts should probably be universal in this hypothetical setting.

@Wizz I think the hardest thing about each species having its own Auspice is that Auspice Gifts are probably going to be difficult to figure out, especially if each species needs at least 1 for each Auspice. That is, perhaps, my biggest hesitation in this specific topic.

@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:

@Coin said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:

Basically, i involves dialing things back to a situation more akin to the pre-War of Rage, where the werewolves were actually just one more species of Fera. If we're combining CofD and cWoD, it would essentially be that instead of the Forsaken being the premiere shapeshifters who had a Pangaena ancestor, each of the shapeshifting species would have their own Pangaean ancestor, probably each one of those having mated with the moon (or, in some cases, another large spirit, like Helios, or had absolutely different origins, like the Nagah and their River Kings).

It would essentially present a world where all of the shapeshifting species had their own role, including the werewolves, and they (ostensibly) worked together, etc. Think more Hengeyokai from cWoD, basically.

The one thing I'd want to point out here is that it is a really good idea to keep the "role" thing going, but each one should be revisited. The oWoD Fera and Garou were all united (basically, originally, on paper) under one deity, and she literally gave them their purpose, but in CoD the Uratha have a role because they specifically inherited Wolf's "duty," which was to BE Wolf. S/he was the spirit of the hunt, s/he was literally his/her duty. There is a huge goldmine of unity but also conflict and contradiction there that doesn't have to be driven by jealousy or pride like it was with the Garou, the different Fera could have coincidentally (or intentionally!) just been created to do absolutely opposite things.

Totally. there could be a bunch of reasons why each species does what they do and they could definitely have conflict. And if the purposes of two species conflict with each other, they would need to balance out, come to an agreement, co-exist in a way that is both violent and viable. But that's the job of the players, not the setting.

This also kinda ties in to how I see the Triat existing in the game, BTW. I don't really want to do the Apocalypse thing and have them be these insane forces spinning out of control and balance. They are not "good" or "evil," they just...are. I think it'd be kind of neat to have each Pangaen ancestor originate from (or be an aspect of) one. Wolf came from the Wyld, Spinner-Hag from the Weaver, Plague King from the Wyrm, just for example.

Yeah. Or even the union between one of these three larger concepts and slightly smaller concepts. Wyld plus the conceptual spirit of Hunting could have led to Wolf, etc.

It would be larger in scope. Depending on how it's structured, you can have Auspices remain across the species (Rahu, Irraka, etc.) and apply the species themselves as Tribes (doing away with the Tribes per se and, perhaps, instituting the Pure as an interspecies sort of coalition) which is my personal preference, or you could do away with Auspices and keep the Tribes, giving each species a function and having that take over as Auspices (Uratha are warriors! Nagah are assassins! Nuwisha are teachers! Whatever whatever!) You could also keep Auspices AND Tribes but then you have to buckle down and apply the same for each species, which nnnnnnnnnnnnnnngh that's a lot of work.

See, yeah, that would be a ton of work, but I LOVE how different auspices were (mostly) for each breed. Sometimes the writers just cheated and copy-pasta'd, yeah, but I think it would really be worth it and extend the life of the game to put the time and effort in.

A good compromise might be giving all the species the same Auspices but having write-ups about how each Auspice works differently under each species (sort of the same way as how each Auspice is different under each Tribe). An Irraka werewolf might be different than, say, an Irraka Ratkin or an Irraka Nagah.

Regardless, mechanically speaking, the other species would work the same as werewolves, with different bonuses and different natural abilities, lots of customization via Merits (e.g. instead of giving Nagah AGGRAVATED VENOM from the get go, they need to buy up from a slight paralytic agent that barely slows other shapeshifters down, to something that does outright organ damage on contact). I'd probably keep the bonuses for shapeshifting within the same parameters as the Uratha (i.e. in Gauru they have +8 total in Attributes, so everyone would get +8 to distribute, bonuses to senses might be different sesnes but same bonus, and then some judgment calls for specific things).

+1

For species that have very large differences within the species itself (for example, cats, who can range anywhere from 'lynx' to 'tiger' I would probably do something similar to how the Mokolé were handled, with Merits that can adjust forms to suit whatever the player wants to play.

I am definitely in the camp of More Options Are Almost Always Better. I actually love having choice paralysis sometimes when I find a game and get really excited about all the possibilities!

I'd also probably definitely bring back the Camazotz, because they're my jam.

GURAHL/RATKIN 4 LYF

I actually wrote a Camazotz breedbook like 15 years ago, man. I still have most of it, too.

In general, if we're talking about professionals who continue training and maintaining their skills as they get older, then what tends to happen is their natural physical abilities dwindle slowly, but their learned skills and long-term experience can compensate. You could do this by limiting a Skill rating by age and inversely limiting an Attribute rating by age, I suppose.

Basically, i involves dialing things back to a situation more akin to the pre-War of Rage, where the werewolves were actually just one more species of Fera. If we're combining CofD and cWoD, it would essentially be that instead of the Forsaken being the premiere shapeshifters who had a Pangaena ancestor, each of the shapeshifting species would have their own Pangaean ancestor, probably each one of those having mated with the moon (or, in some cases, another large spirit, like Helios, or had absolutely different origins, like the Nagah and their River Kings).

It would essentially present a world where all of the shapeshifting species had their own role, including the werewolves, and they (ostensibly) worked together, etc. Think more Hengeyokai from cWoD, basically. You could even do cool things, where the werespiders and wererats are the ones most pushing to erradicate the Azlu and Beshilu because theys ee it, maybe, as their Pangaean ancestors trying to restructure and reform themselves to take vengeance.

It would be larger in scope. Depending on how it's structured, you can have Auspices remain across the species (Rahu, Irraka, etc.) and apply the species themselves as Tribes (doing away with the Tribes per se and, perhaps, instituting the Pure as an interspecies sort of coalition) which is my personal preference, or you could do away with Auspices and keep the Tribes, giving each species a function and having that take over as Auspices (Uratha are warriors! Nagah are assassins! Nuwisha are teachers! Whatever whatever!) You could also keep Auspices AND Tribes but then you have to buckle down and apply the same for each species, which nnnnnnnnnnnnnnngh that's a lot of work. I guess you could use species as a tertiary axis and just give all of them the same Auspice AND Tribe, but that seems strange (though I can see it working fine with some effort).

Regardless, mechanically speaking, the other species would work the same as werewolves, with different bonuses and different natural abilities, lots of customization via Merits (e.g. instead of giving Nagah AGGRAVATED VENOM from the get go, they need to buy up from a slight paralytic agent that barely slows other shapeshifters down, to something that does outright organ damage on contact). I'd probably keep the bonuses for shapeshifting within the same parameters as the Uratha (i.e. in Gauru they have +8 total in Attributes, so everyone would get +8 to distribute, bonuses to senses might be different sesnes but same bonus, and then some judgment calls for specific things).

For species that have very large differences within the species itself (for example, cats, who can range anywhere from 'lynx' to 'tiger' I would probably do something similar to how the Mokolé were handled, with Merits that can adjust forms to suit whatever the player wants to play.

Depending on how you divide them socially, it can create different viewpoints and relationships to spirits, etc.

I'd also probably definitely bring back the Camazotz, because they're my jam.

@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:

@Arkandel
Eh, like I said man, it was just a first draft. What excites me is the idea of an exclusively-Werewolf: The Forsaken game (with maybe the Changing Breeds too?!) with cool options!

I would legit love a game that operated like WtF but with the larger species spread of Changing Breeds (or rather, the original oWoD Fera, probably), without the werewolves being center-stage.

I mean I know that's not what you're going for, I just remembered an old project. >.>

@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:

@Coin said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
Maybe I'm overthinking it.

I think you are. It's been thousands of years since the supposed origins of the Tribes. It's entirely possible many Uratha never went to any Firstborn, or that they went to other powerful spirits for patronage. But the werewolf population is small, you can't really apply the same demographics to them that we would for humanity. It's perfectly feasible that there were just eight large groups of werewolves who each went to a Firstborn--and then started hunting down the remaining Uratha and either converting them, or eliminating them (depending on the Tribe and, yes, local culture and decisions).

It's also just more simple, and if you're going to customize a large chunk of two games, I think the simpler the better. But that's just me.

@Arkandel said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:

@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:

It is a very, very different take from the books and I understand it might not really work or make sense, it's just my first idea on how to approach the setting differently.

Okay.

So how do you envision this would translate in-game? Ideally what are the dynamics you would like to see between characters belonging to different tribes and the same one? How do they affect their everyday lives outside the pack? How does it impact packs made from PCs hailing from different tribes?

I suspect the same way it affects any group who follow an ideology but come from different places.

I still think the Five Tribes with old tribes as Lodges is better--especially since some religions/philosophies ARE globe-spanning (Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Shinto, Hinduism--on and on) and the population of the world's werewolves is small in comparison to mortals, so there only being 8-or-so "religions" is perfectly acceptable to me, especially if then there's like 13 Lodges that each put a spin on that. I think it works better. But mechanically it probably wouldn't matter which you put first, just which you base your mechanics on.

@Derp said in CofD and Professional Training:

To me, specialty stacking implies additional levels of specialization. So to use a fairly blah example:

Brawl: Street Fighting --> Cheap Shot
Weaponry: Knives --> Butterfly Knives
Academics: Philosophy --> Postmodernism --> 20th Century German Postmodernists

It implies that you are progressively narrowing your field of focus until you're very, very good with that one thing.

Except you're making an assumption based on the word use and your interpretation of its meaning, and not the actual example given, and the actual example given contradicts you, since neither Cardiology nor Surgery are progressions of each other.

On the topic of stacking Specialties: it's always bugged me that the only example in the books we have of Specialty stacking makes sense--but everyone else interprets it in a way that allows for abuse, instead of what--to me--is obvious.

The example is Medicine.Surgery and Medicine.Cardiology, for a +2 in Heart Surgery. Makes sense. Why does it make sense? Because these are two separate things that just happen to intersect. Surgery doesn't encompass Cardiology, nor vice-versa.

But then, people (and I was guilty of it on TR, but then, I don't mind breaking a rule when people are willfully blind to it) decided that they could do things like Melee.Thrusting, Melee.PointedWeapons, Melee.Swords, Melee.Rapiers...

Newsflash, genius, if you're using a Rapier, you're using a pointed weapon, called a sword, that is primarily for fucking thrusting.

Anyone else see where the difference lies?

This isn't the same as, for example, Melee.Swords, Melee.Disarm; you can disarm with a sword, but it isn't its primary function.

It's also not like Crafts.Decorating, Crafts.Baking, Crafts.Desserts--not all desserts are baked or decorated, but if you have these three, guess fucking what, you're probably a bitchin' fucking wedding cake maker!

God damn.

Man, I do not have the spoons for this fucking thread.

@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:

@Jennkryst
RE: DOUBLE EDIT: Not honestly sure how I would want to handle Fera/Changing Breeds. TBH I kind of...hate the nWoD Changing Breeds. I hate that they're a completely separate thing, I'd definitely want them to be more in line with the breeds mentioned in like, W:tF's War Against The Pure (I think???????) where they actually fit into Shadow cosmology and have Primal Urge and all that.

As with other things, I would be willing to help bringing the Fera to CofD.