RolePlay Intensive because RolePlay Enforced can still allow for non-permadeath.
Don't ask me I didn't make up these names. Also if they've changed don't ask me, I dropped out of this argument in like 2005 (except for that accidental joining in again here last week OOOPS). But I played on RPE games mostly, not RPI games, because I was just not as 'intensive' about my rp. Or because I liked them.
I know. You talked to me about it then. I like you @Jeshin. Lots. Honest. My point is more that someone new coming in and throwing stones here as if this entire group is unreasonable and nasty for questioning some things is a bit late to the game, and that the discussions and tone that are over in your arena aren't exactly consistently scholarly. Why is this a thing still? We have clearly heard your inclusion policies stated. We don't all agree it is the best measure for inclusion in discussion/community building regarding quality text games, but we also know you didn't come here to ask us, we discussed it anyway because it was a discussion thread. It's done!
I know I stated before that I felt it was a bit of the RPI vs Non-RPI MUD snobbery (Going Strong Since 1998!) and 'lets add a MUSH or two so it doesn't look exactly like that' but you talked me down from that angle so I let it go, and really who even cares what I think! You and/or @Crayon have I'm sure accepted you are not going to convince the bulk of a MUSH forum that your ideas about what makes an RP text game 'quality' are the 'right' ones. Or 'worthy of being listed' or whatever. It's cool.
ETA: I should stop saying the same thing over and over no matter how many espressos I've had, so that is a thing I will do now. I will totally at least skim Brody's stuff though when its up, I 
him. Best of luck. Also female players can get along, I met many of my best friends (girl ones) on MUDs. That is all.
From what I've seen, and admittedly I just glanced through 'the big ones' on Mudconnector and TMS the threads about your site either got mostly no response on forums, or some gentle questions about whether the frequency of posts met guidelines. So yeah, not the same 'backlash' there was here. Here there was questioning about the 'inclusion policy' some flat out just dragging for it, some criticism, some discussion. Too much? I dunno, up to you guys to judge. Like I said, I've had interesting conversations with @Jeshin about games and different games and game design as a result, I don't come out with guns blazing. I also had a conversation with him about how perhaps the group on the forum who called themselves 'rape enthusiasts' as an official title on their sidebar avatar things might be offputting to new members looking for mature discussion. Or the discussion topic I never mentioned, started by someone who appeared to be a MUD runner/staffer called "Female Players Can't Get Along: It Is A Thing."
It's a new community, finding its footing, deciding who it wants to be and what tone it wants to take, and in that I wish it well. The MUSH 'forum' community cannot claim it hasn't had worse going on.
So you've picked what games you want to highlight, and perhaps the staff and players of those games will bring you the innovative, productive discussion you are yearning for. Where's the argument? Isn't it over?
I'd hug Brody, he always had good discussions going on other MU* sites, but he's just an article guy there. He should come here, except I don't really know that there'd be lots of crossover convo with the 'mostly WoD but some other things' and 'Spaceworld I designed myself' (I never played it because I am just not a Sci-Fi gal, but it seems impressive conceptually)
Yeah. You don't actually -have- to engage with anybody here. You don't have to be here at all.
If there's an -applications process- I'm not sure what the conversation is even about? Have people from here applied? Again @Jeshin cited Kushiel's Debut, but he approached our staff with an -invitation- and we said we didn't think we met the criteria after discussing it. He and I have also had long discussions about truly valuable cross MUD/MUSH general 'text game design' issues that could be worthwhile that would have to happen with games that don't 'meet the criteria'. Those discussions aren't going to happen on your site though.
What do you want from advertising your articles here? The people who read this site know yours exists. They'll check it out if they want. The reason that this thread has so many clicks thus far is because the argument gets people heated enough that they want to read or contribute or in some cases maybe some ground was made. It's not to see the article links. Promise.
I wanted to add, just because it was brought up before, that KD isn't 'trying to get on the list'. We know @Jeshin, he plays with us sometimes, and I've had some lovely conversations with him that aren't reflected by the initial tone on this thread. But because it became a 'this is the club, some people are trying to get in, like KD hey!' I wanted to clarify a bit. When he approached us at first we said 'We don't have any automated systems that look like the ones you are talking about. We have a lot of 'code we might want to make simpler' (as in it happens without staff having to check)' that could maybe qualify later, so if we end up doing it we will tell you! I don't even remember off the top of my head what those things were, they are not high on the list. I don't anticipate it happening soon.
I'm not sure why I felt like jumping in and explaining, except that I am on here and all pumped up on coffee. As we can see by all posts I've made today that end in "I don't know why I made this post." Fear not, I'm not on any other forums today, tainting people with my pointless paragraphs. Just you guys.
My only question in terms of the 'listing' was sort of the 'what was the point'? If it was for advertising space, I think a lot of players know where to go to find games that are 'up their alley' and if Jeshin and Co feel like a new site needs to exist to advertise a particular kind of game with a very specific particular kind of criteria...then hey. Up to them I guess. The list to me mostly looked like "RPI and a Couple Other Things' and I have as I said long lost interest in the RPI vs debate so I sort of dropped out of that discussion.
A site that pulled in from some different groups: a few of the long-successful, possibly even commercial MUDS, some of the long in the community MUSH staffers/players, etc, could get some conversations going that were interesting TO ME about game design and how to retain players, that -might- have aspects that go across genre, that work whether you are a half hack/slash half rp game with pay-for-perks, and a WoD game, and an 'other MUSH' but maybe everyone's ideas would be different, and I don't think a space exists right NOW that would pull those people together for an actually productive conversation, and I am not making that space. Nor would it really be a 'listing'. Plus maybe it already exists or once existed or who knows. Honestly I forgot my point but I am still going to hit 'submit' because the button is so blue and tempting...
Yay! The people who made it are the best! Truly great folks. If you have a place to share non-MU* related things over on your space, pop up the link maybe? I don't think they are in the hole on this project after all the cons, but they have new ones coming up, and exposure is good. The 'geek movie business' is a niche at this point, but people are learning that the audience isn't as small as expected.
Okay I don't know if here or anywhere is the place to plug this, and if nowhere is than mods, feel free to delete, I understand! This tastes LESS gamey but not entirely non-gamey! What this tastes like is a movie, about tabletop gaming, that has been making the rounds at game-cons and film-cons and finally landed film distribution and thus can be purchased for viewing pleasure.
It was created by friends of mine, and so I think its pretty awesome. Is it the best movie you will see ever in your life? It's an indie-film made mostly by gamers using local actors about tabletop gaming, and the storyline that follows when one of their tabletop group enlists in the Iraq war (It is based on a play, written by one of the actors in the film.) Is it something interesting and cool about a hobby that many of you are familiar with, represented on film? Yeah for sure. Is it WAY LESS STUPID than Dungeons and Dragons: The Movie. or uh..didn't they do a Kindred the Embraced show? Obviously. The characters are gamers, not...gamer characters, though there is amusing crossover meant to enhance the story. I liked it, and I am way proud of my friends, actors, producers, and playwright alike for making it happen.
Anyway, check it out if you are interested. Be warned the trailer is NSFW due to serious swear words. The movie is not rated, but there is no sex or nudity or anything like that. Silly simulated violence, and a wholelotta cursin'
@Jeshin said:
That being said roleplay is roleplay. I certainly have my preference as to the environment for participating in roleplay but that's like saying you enjoy reading a book in a quiet room or with a soundtrack that compliments it or outside. It's just the manner in which you prefer the experience to occur. But then again I don't speak for the entire MUD community or the RPI community, only the Optional Realities community so you know... Grain of salt and all that.
OR the ice cream/cake/whatever thing, but yeah. We're all over the which is better conversation and I'm glad you agree!
I would say the 2 biggest differences between MUDs and MUSHes is our OOC policies. Some MUDs have OOC channels but they require you to have the narrative playout purely through IC events. Meaning you cannot go OOC I'd like to become a cop in the local PD. You would have to take IC steps towards letting people know you wanted to be a cop in the local PD. Meanwhile on MUSHes the collaboration (in my experience thus far) is more in the path of least resistance. I want to become a cop in the local PD. Great, lets cut out the busywork and get you right into a story arc that may or may not facilitate that. No muss, no fuss.
I'm gonna have to say that on my MUD experience this one is a nope. Perhaps on some MUDs there is no communicating with staff about "I'd like to do this thing, how do I do it" but on some there absolutely is. Not a channel for it, but you can absolutely take OOC steps on some games to tell the staff your goals and have them give you feedback on what IN CHARACTER things you need to do to make that occur, which is not disimilar to a MUSH. Now if the 'position' or whatever a character wants is one that would only be granted by other PCs...then -ideally- on many MUDs you go after that IC only, using the avenues that are provided. Ideally, because as we know the whole 'players don't communicate using ooc methods' is an 'ideal' for some games but rarely and sometimes never a truth, thus telling the person who is head of Faction X OOC that you want in and having the head of Faction X give you some ideas about how DOES occur on MUDs, its just perhaps occurring on IM/Skype/whatever the kids use these days. My experience has shown collaboration on both MUD and MUSH, the question is just where it is happening. I have also seen people attempt to achieve X -purely ic- on both MUD and MUSH, it just depends how clear it is on how that can be done, and how much a particular player enjoys discussing their plans OOC. The idea that a MUD has only an in game ic narrative though is a myth. Its whether collaboration is the cultural norm, or whether it is done offsite.
The second biggest difference (or the biggest big difference?) is that a lot of MUDs have coded NPCs which have coded combat abilities. MUSHes (normally) do not. This creates a pretty big experience gap between both games that can lead to one viewing the other as less serious. And brings up the "gameplay" term which is loaded.
Yes. This one I'll agree with. Most MUDs have 'mobs' or whatever you'd like to call them, and you can fight them to gain skills in whatever way MUDs have for you to gain skills because THAT is an absolute totally true difference (or potential difference) between the styles of games. A real one, that in my experience is consistent. (I have never played on a MUD without coded NPCs to kill and who will respawn, etc, code code code, and I have never played on a MUSH that had them.) So here I agree.
@Thenomain said:
Thanks for the support, @Gingerlily. I am interested that in order to bridge communication gaps you have to want to bridge communication gaps, and that is understandably not something someone who has to deal with a newbie commonly wants to do. Changing your mental gears is tiring on both sides.
You are welcome. An interesting conversation rather than "Who is more bestestest" might be "What does a MUD player need to know to try out MUSH games?" and "What does a MUSH player need to know to try out MUDs" Obviously mwv depending on the particular MUSH or MUD, but there are some differences in the mechanics, the culture, and yeah even the lingo, that could actually be useful to discuss. Productive. We do seem to have people who have tried both, some extensively.
MUDs do seem to care far less about sex rp. There are certainly not files, rules, or discussions about it that I recall in the MUD 'community' other than the occasional 'do you, don't you, fade to black yes/no' that is common here. Granted with less OOC communication, it was less easy to make it clear what you were or weren't comfortable with, but there was still mail "Hey I like this romance story we are doing but don't like to rp the 'nitty gritty'" or like I said, everyone eventually did end up talking to their playing partners through other means. IM, Skype, Whatevs. I just don't recall it ever being such a Big Deal.
TinySex also made me laugh when I first learned the term, as did 'mav'. MUDs have no famous 'mav' for whom to give credit for every falsely aimed miscommunication, so it is usually just a 'mistell'
Stand by Theno here though in that its Just Not That Different. The ice cream discussion again I guess, but hey.
@Arkandel said:
@Thenomain said:
What I am discovering about people who are exclusive Mudders: They have a very specific, almost draconian idea of what "RP" means.
Back in the day I had been playing MUDs exclusively for years when I made the leap to a MUSH.
A lot of things were very confusing, from moving around using uniquely-named exits instead of n/s/w/e, to everyday communication through page, navigating help file structures, figuring out the commands to set up a description, etc.
Roleplaying? It was exactly the same thing I had always known. We used emote instead of @emit but that's about it. Even the quality was about the same on average.
Obviously this is anecdotal, so take it as you will.
No you say? The SAME you say? But surely one must be THE MOST BETTER ALWAYS.
(This is exactly my experience. Different code, different culture, and on a MUD people had less tolerance for me taking ten minutes to put pretty similes and metaphors and over the top prose into my poses which I do admittedly enjoy. Storyline and rp in general? Samesies!)
Dr. Suess has it covered. However please don't think that these discussions are representative of what all people who play MUDs think. RPI is...a different beast? Most MUD players I know/have known are very chill people. If you tried to engage them into a long debate about what 'true roleplay' really is they'd roll their eyes just as much as many MUSHers would.
There's some with VRY SRS ideas about what fun is good and what fun is bad and etc in both sets of games, but I don't think they make up the majority.
I will play on your game, but I will not work on it, because working is hard.
I have actually been on a game where a player had so much beef with me that she would literally page half the people who played in rooms alone with my character with 'why are you playing with HER." and other passive aggressive comments that weren't 'quite' harassment and yet made it so people would either always want their unfindable flags on when they were alone with me, or just avoided playing with me because her grief was so intense. That said I am STILL in favor of no unfindable flag in public places. If those players didn't feel like telling her to buzz off but wanted to hide instead, we'd just have to go hide together somewhere alone instead of having a perfectly reasonable sensible conversation in a public place.
And yeah eventually she got booted for harassment. Would have been sooner except I am also staff, and so I felt like I should tolerate more than I would for my players, but eventually enough is enough for anyone. You can write up long, elaborate rules for what 'harassment' is, but ultimately if you systematically are incapable of treating others how you wish to be treated yourself, you need a less social hobby.
I did not put this on the game 'needed' and maybe I will get to that soon, but what we are SUPER needing in terms of courtesans is Dowaynes. The Mont can be a TS factory if left to become that, but it can also be incredibly political as well (and chars can also engage in other types of more -serious- rp, we even have some going off to war as healers and etc)
Dowaynes and Seconds though are the ones that fuel the politics between houses, whether alliances or competitions, and also bridge the gap between Mont politics and noble politics. There have been plots where courtesan characters set serious story into motion...I mean the first series of books is all about that. But the training and mentoring and machinations that come from the leadership on the Mont are pretty crucial in making this happen. So that is an option to consider too, and presently we have about zero active Dowaynes or Seconds.
Bah! Heavy fingers late at night in my commenting frenzy. Also I never criticized his grammar! I just recall in high school instances of having to count back to remember who was saying what. Love Hemmmmmingway with all of your heart. I don't judge. Not to your face I mean, that would be so rude.
Also does anyone remember a MU* that had something to do with characters being reincarnations of famous writers? There was a plot but I forget it. I only remember a friend pulling me along and somehow convincing me to play the Anais Nin. I enjoyed it especially because I dislike Anais Nin, so all of my scenes were me acting pretentious and 'deep'. But I never did figure out what to do besides that. Or maybe it was just too much fun being mock Anais Nin to bother. There was a Heminngway too, and he suggested we have a backstory as exes. I went with it ONLY if he promised to dump my character in Paris, in the rain, using short sentences.
So since I have decided to be a poster and not a lurker, lured out of my shell by intense discussions on other threads about unfindable flags and RPI muds, I'll go ahead and introduce.
I'm Asherat on KD. One of the two-person staff team, though Skaldia is the big kahuna. I'm blown away by the interest @Sunny generated here and elsewhere and how the game has dramatically grown since the spring. Those of you who joined us, I hope you are having an awesome time. For those who didn't find it their cuppa, It's a bummer to hear but I get it. We like what we like. Please if you need something in game let us know, we try to be super responsive as staff, but we're a two man/woman operation and sometimes busy weeks slow down the cogs.
Thanks for checking us out if you have!
The only way to properly Hemmingway it is if no one ever tagged their dialogue, forcing you to count up to see who was talking and/or dislike your English teacher.
Also it would always have to be raining.