Posts made by Kestrel

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

What? No. What?

I have in no way, shape or form reacted to the incident brought up by @ixokai surrounding the Village Centre 'can I join' page IC.

You said 'well the villagers shunned us'.

It would, however, give H and I something to work with in terms of, 'oh, I guess the villagers here don't like us', and RP is still RP.

This is making IC reason for OOC reason from those players.

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

As is assuming you couldn't join the scene for IC reasons alone, when they have no IC reason to not like you. You made the IC narrative on your own, you actually powered for the other players in this case. You made that you were ICly shunned, when they just couldn't manage a large scene.

What? No. What?

I have in no way, shape or form reacted to the incident brought up by @ixokai surrounding the Village Centre 'can I join' page IC. I wouldn't, because the request was OOC, and because this is a MUSH. I am not treating a MUSH as though it were a MUD. If that was my intention, why would I make this thread? I explained, at @Thenomain's request, how the incident would have gone down had it been a MUD.

Because it bears repeating, apparently:

I explained, at @Thenomain's request, how the incident would have gone down had it been a MUD.**

had it been a MUD.

You may want to reread my posts in the relevant context. I don't really know how to make my intentions here clearer to you. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

As is assuming you couldn't join the scene for IC reasons alone, when they have no IC reason to not like you. You made the IC narrative on your own, you actually powered for the other players in this case. You made that you were ICly shunned, when they just couldn't manage a large scene.

What? No. What?

I have in no way, shape or form reacted to the incident brought up by @ixokai surrounding the Village Centre 'can I join' page IC. I wouldn't, because the request was OOC, and because this is a MUSH. I am not treating a MUSH as though it were a MUD. If that was my intention, why would I make this thread? I explained, at @Thenomain's request, how the incident would have gone down had it been a MUD.

@faraday: I think I've seen something similar on the MUSH I play. I do kinda wish there was a good way to balance place code in public spaces and dynamic, MUD-style scenes with MUSH-style freeform creativity.

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Pages do not come into it.

'Tell' came into it with the example of Bob the ooc friend and him explaining it was dinner. Page is the same thing.

No, totally different. If Bob's telling me OOCly, on a MUD, 'My character can't answer the door right now because I'm at dinner', it does not change the narrative of what's occurring IC, (ETA: Nor determine my ability to RP around it). It lets me know, OOCly, that Bob doesn't hate me and Bob would love to RP with me. But Bob's IC absence remains an IC fact, which I would react to. His IC absence has already become a part of the RP, whereas in a MUSH, the RP simply does not exist.

I think the culture shock I've described is now going both ways. You MUSHers are looking at me like I'm wearing a kilt.

And, you go with the villagers here don't like us. Not only where they kind enough to say everyone would split because the scene would be too busy for most of the current players [...]

These two statements are totally unrelated. In a MUD community, this would be called bad separation of IC and OOC. My character going, 'the villagers here don't like us' in a MUD would have nothing to do with 'but they were really kind to you OOC!' They were. I'm not arguing that. It's just irrelevant to the IC narrative.

@TNP, I'd quote you too, but see above response. And please understand that when I talk about MUD culture, I am not talking about my expectations of MUSH culture.

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel

Part of my question is: How do G & H know there's anything going on in the Town Square? With Bob's Party I'm presuming you were invited. How would you invite yourself to Town Square?

I ask this in part because you are framing a lot of this as "What Would Happen IC". In trying to help you understand the OOC culture, I'm pointing out that you already are acting on OOC information, which lead you to paging. You engaged in OOC behavior in order to find a scene to play in.

@Kanye-Qwest answered this in part. Additionally, many MUDs have commands similar to where, or have IC mechanisms for tracking people down. e.g., mystical scrying, tracking, long-distance IC communication, etc. There are a bunch of ways my character could find out that Bob is at home right now or that people s/he needs to talk to are at the Town Square. And when it comes to places like a town square or local bar which are always crowded, I wouldn't need to check through any of these means anyway, since I would just always know that it's a good place to go and find RP.

@Groth, @faraday, those mentioning place code etc.: Wasn't it said above that these things aren't really used? Because if so that doesn't seem really relevant. I haven't seen them on the MUSH I'm playing, nor a follow command. They could be obscure, I could just be oblivious, idk.

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Can you please frame the example situation as it would happen on a MUD? That is, you asked someone if you could come to their house, they said nope sorry too busy, and that's off-putting to you. What is your cultural expectation?

OOCly, it wouldn't happen.

So you wouldn't know where people were, and therefore you couldn't make the decision to join or not join.

Then your expectations are coming from something that is not related to MUD. Either that, or the situation you gave, stopping by someone's IC location, is different. How would it happen in a public sense?

More or less like this:

@Kestrel said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

A better example though would be that Bob is having an open house party at his place. It's crowded enough that people are saying they might leave soon, because they don't like big scenes. There would still be no expectation that I should ask if I could join — my character would roll up to his house and walk in. Two people might leave for an adjoining room. I might even leave for an adjoining room. Or Bob, ICly, might say, 'Hey KestrelCharacter, we don't want you joining our party', and he'll shove my character out the door. We may have a fight on the front lawn.

A MUD I recently played had place code, which I liked a lot, as it meant that my character could join this party, go talk to someone on the sofas, get bored, then go talk to someone at the buffet table instead. Everyone you see in this room is basically 'open to RP' because they're online and IC (there is no OOC lounge), but to avoid having to focus on too many things at once, you can split the scene into multiple sub-scenes for various, dynamic groups within. I may go from place to place and roleplay with everyone in the room in a single evening, but only one at a time, and not have to be inundated with the spam of people privately making out on the sofas while I'm standing at the buffet table. But with a quick look around the room, I can make myself vaguely aware of what's going on and pick and choose which information I want to see. (e.g., look sofa — oh hey, two people have set their shortdescs/roomtitles/looktexts to be eating each other's faces. I'll bring that up to my buffet partner conversation partner, and maybe clue in the sofa couple that they get the sense people are talking about them.)

Translated into the scene @ixokai brought up, my character (G) and H would have walked into the village centre, where A & B may be talking privately at a stall, C may be milling around on her own and therefore an open invitation to RP, DEF may be in a huge crowd fighting. H and I would probably make a comment to one another about the fight, then approach C, etc.

Any rejection H and I experience (e.g., C may ICly say, 'How dare you intrude! Go away!') would not be taken as any kind of affront because IC is IC. It would, however, give H and I something to work with in terms of, 'oh, I guess the villagers here don't like us', and RP is still RP.

Pages do not come into it.

Mainly I think the difference is that on a MUD, RP is a lot more dynamic; there is a lot of code in place to make it so. In a MUSH, as clued in by the term 'shared hallucination' (instead of dungeon), it's make-your-own-fun, and unless you make it so, RP is static. Everyone in a room is expected to involve everyone there, and you cannot really move your character around without ending the RP taking place. (Conversely in a MUD, if you leave the room, I can follow you.)

It's a trade-off though because on MUDs the writing standard is a lot lower; people don't just use the code to facilitate RP, they rely on it like a crutch. Even the very best writers there get lazy, because why emote what code has already stated for you? I'm answering your questions because you're asking them, but that doesn't mean I think MUDs are better.

So I should probably clarify that when you ask what my cultural expectations are — I don't have any. I've walked into someone else's house, and they've asked me to take off my shoes, so my expectation is that I should take off my shoes. Even if, having now been exposed to their smelly feet, I would set a rule in my own house that they should keep their shoes on when they visit me in turn.

EDIT: I'm only editing typos and bad sentence structure. I swear.

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Can you please frame the example situation as it would happen on a MUD? That is, you asked someone if you could come to their house, they said nope sorry too busy, and that's off-putting to you. What is your cultural expectation?

OOCly, it wouldn't happen.

My character would go to, say, Bob's house, Bob's house being somewhere on the grid where I can find it. The character would knock on the door, which he may not answer for any number of reasons:

1. Bob isn't home. (Although usually there's some means by which I'd be able to learn this IC before heading there.)
2. Bob is AFK or busy IRL.
3. Bob is at home, but cannot come to the door because he is literally tied up by a burglar or is busy banging Suzie.

If Bob is a friend OOCly, he might drop me a quick tell saying, 'Hey, love to RP, but I'm cooking dinner right now / Bob can't come to the door.' There is no expectation that he should do this, but he might.

Whatever the excuse is doesn't matter. My character still knocked on the door, ICly, and for whatever reason, Bob didn't answer.

Later, when I run into Bob IC, my character will say, 'Hey Bob, I swung by your house earlier, but you didn't answer. What's up? Were you too busy banging Suzie?'

Bob will reply ICly saying, 'No, your mother', 'A burglar came in!' 'Sorry, I was asleep', or something similar. If OOCly he's promised to RP with me at some point and is sorry he couldn't earlier, that may still happen, but it wouldn't change that at this particular time, my character knocked and he didn't answer. We may turn this into fuel for conflict or my character may say, 'That's OK, I understand', and they get over it. There's no anxiety in the approach because whatever happens, happens. The story will still be driven forward around this incident.

A better example though would be that Bob is having an open house party at his place. It's crowded enough that people are saying they might leave soon, because they don't like big scenes. There would still be no expectation that I should ask if I could join — my character would roll up to his house and walk in. Two people might leave for an adjoining room. I might even leave for an adjoining room. Or Bob, ICly, might say, 'Hey KestrelCharacter, we don't want you joining our party', and he'll shove my character out the door. We may have a fight on the front lawn.

A MUD I recently played had place code, which I liked a lot, as it meant that my character could join this party, go talk to someone on the sofas, get bored, then go talk to someone at the buffet table instead. Everyone you see in this room is basically 'open to RP' because they're online and IC (there is no OOC lounge), but to avoid having to focus on too many things at once, you can split the scene into multiple sub-scenes for various, dynamic groups within. I may go from place to place and roleplay with everyone in the room in a single evening, but only one at a time, and not have to be inundated with the spam of people privately making out on the sofas while I'm standing at the buffet table. But with a quick look around the room, I can make myself vaguely aware of what's going on and pick and choose which information I want to see. (e.g., look sofa — oh hey, two people have set their shortdescs/roomtitles/looktexts to be eating each other's faces. I'll bring that up to my buffet partner conversation partner, and maybe clue in the sofa couple that they get the sense people are talking about them.)

@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

This scenario just happened a moment ago and was relevant (lol, I wonder how many of you are in the scene or on the game and having this conversation simultaneously):

A pages B, C, D, E, and F: Room for another? Wanted to check before just joining!

<OOC> E is okay with it.
<OOC> C says, "I'm fine with it as well."
<OOC> B is having a hard enough time keeping up with you four "But I am willing to pose out and A to come in since I think E has accomplished what he wants with me in this scene.
<OOC> E says, "That's okay. If it's too big for you, we can just say so."
<OOC> C says, "Well I was actually hoping for a nap, so I can pose out next round and she can take my place instead."
<OOC> E says, "Up to you, C. Can always ask her for a raincheck."
<OOC> D says, "I can handle one more but after that I'll have to flee"
<OOC> C says, "Eh, sleep seems real nice right about now, so I'll pose out next round and she can take my place."

You(D) paged A, B, C, E, and F with 'Sure, come along over.'

A arrives from the Apple Orchard.
A has arrived.

G pages F, C, E, D, and B: Hi, room for two more at the Village Centre?

<OOC> D laughs
<OOC> E says, "Now that's too big for me as well."
<OOC> C says, "Heyo, A! I'll be posing out this round, so you'll be taking my spot."
<OOC> A thumbs up.

You(D) paged G, F, C, E, D, and B with 'We you but half of us would have to bail then because the scene's just about its limit for our available attention right now.'
G pages F, C, E, D, and B: No worries.

Did A or G have to page? No. But had they not, three people would have joined the scene, and multiple people would have left. The end result would be a different scene. Is that good or bad? What if A or G wanted to RP with someone who was going to leave due to overcrowding and attention-limits? Or, what if the existing scene just basically ends as a result of the people coming in, at which point A, G and the remainders are basically starting a new scene? At that point, is there really any value for anyone's fun if that new scene just gets started in another place? Does place really matter?

(And should B, C, D, E and F decided to take their scene private? Then A and G wouldn't be able to join them either. Is that a better outcome?)

So, hey, I'd like to shed some more light on this situation.

Also, hi! I'm G! Now you all know who I am.

I totally understand why you did not want another two people joining. And I knew, even when I was asking, that there was a chance the answer would be 'no', given that I know that at least two of the five who were already involved in that scene often have very demanding real lives which mean that in those rare moments when I do get to RP with them, they're prone to being distracted and may have to leave at a moment's notice. I get that.

My reason for asking anyway if I (and a plus one) could join is that I was in a one-on-one scene with an unseen H. H is a new player and a terrific, engaging writer whom I've recently persuaded to join the MUSH. So engaging and wonderful is H that H isn't even a friend of mine, but a relative stranger whom I'd only ever had one scene with on another MUD, a scene that was so memorable it ended up being noted in my character's timeline and, six months down the line, we 'ran into each other' in a gaming chatroom and I said, 'Holy shit, it's you, H! You're one of the best writers I've encountered. You should come play the 100 MUSH with me —' and he did.

Like me, H is fairly new to MUSHes on the whole. To start things off nice and easy, we had our one-on-one scene in a quiet public spot where I introduced him to my character and he did vice versa. His character then said, IC, 'So, aren't you going to introduce me to your friends at the Village Centre?' To which my character said, 'Sure'. OOCly, however, you can imagine me breaking into a sudden sweat. I told him OOCly that I would page to ask first, because it is polite to do so, and, well, we got our response, which I expected.

<OOC> Kestrel (G) says, "There's a group of 5 at the Village Centre, you want to join them or fade?"
<OOC> H says, "I'm down to join them, if you are!"
You (Kestrel/G) paged F, C, E, D, and B with 'Hi, room for two more at the Village Centre?'
<OOC> Kestrel (G) says, "Paged them"
D pages Kestrel (G), F, C, E, D, and B: We you but half of us would have to bail then because the scene's just about its limit for our available attention right now.
F pages Kestrel (G), C, E, and B: I'm actually having to duck out, if that matters!
You paged F, C, E, D, and B with 'No worries.'
<OOC> Kestrel (G) says, "They said no, heh. Scene too full."
<OOC> H says, "Oh! Well, alright then, I guess we fade!"

You paged H with 'I'd ask around later if there are any lone Grounders interested in RPing at the village, for a smaller scene.'
H pages: Yeah, I will, probably. That actually really turns me off, honestly. One of the reasons I don't care for MUSHes as much.

I you guys too, really I do, and I hope you won't take me posting this as a 'fuck you, I'm so mad that you didn't let us join'. But can you see how the environment fostered by this particular etiquette standard might come across as very nerve-wracking and unwelcoming? Me, I could take it or leave it — and to your credit, you paged me later when the scene was less full to let me know that I could now join if I wanted to. But I felt pretty bad for H, who had by then already logged off. I was hoping to introduce him to a group of awesome RPers. But it can be awkward for people to approach OOCly this way.

P.S.: Those of you playing this MUSH, now that you know who I play — if you see me making any of the confusing faux pas mentioned in this thread, feel free to page me and I'll strive to correct any mistakes.

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kanye-Qwest said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

[...] people being disruptive for the hell of it - you know, the guy who runs in and collapses in a bloody heap at a table of strangers just trying to have coffee.

Dealing with snowflakes is a different discussion than courtesy of asking to join a scene.

Oh man. Relatable. The good thing to know about snowflakes though is that they aren't even special to MUSHes.

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Lotherio said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Exactly why folks are saying it helps to ask first?

No, people are saying its polite to ask first, thus implying entitlement and control over a grid space, and the right to tell you no. That it might be smart to ask first isn't something I'd argue against. I sometimes do, I often don't, but again I'm willing to live with the consequences, which might be Vampire X and Vampire Y looking at me, looking at each other, then leaving for a more private location.

3 posts and that was that scene. Yet.. it was still a form of interaction.

Circular logic. Polite to ask first is wrong, smart to ask first is right.

It's not circular. @lordbelh (and @Groth, a page or so up) has explained how a person entering a scene might benefit from asking first and thus learn pertinent information that would affect how they ought to approach. So there is a practical reason to do so other than it being a sort of curtsey.

Others in this thread are making it clear that asking is some kind of weird social dance to determine whether or not the other person is an arsehole. ( @ixokai, I was referring to this post, namely.) This, to me, is arseholish. I agree with those who have said that it smacks of entitlement. It's about wanting to be given arbitrary respect, not offering respect to those who need it, e.g., that they might be helped to better integrate into a scene, or so that they know they ought to feel welcome. This is just semantics, and doesn't amount to much, but I think the way people phrase their expectations and why they have them matters.

It's kind of like if you're in a fight with someone and they snap at you, "Aren't you going to apologise to me?" Even if you should have, it's just uncool to make that demand, and is usually about one person wanting to hold court over the situation.

Speaking for myself, I don't really like making anyone feel like they need to ask for my permission to join in and have fun. I feel awkward when people needlessly apologise to me for intruding on a scene. I think a more welcoming environment would be one where public places are considered genuinely public, but I understand the counter-arguments being made, which is why I don't have a perfect solution. I just think it's worth considering how these social constructs (which apparently bear the weight of decades of history) translate into the kind of environment they foster.

@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Ominous said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@faraday said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

• Ask before joining a scene in progress.

This is the most asinine rule I come across in this hobby, particularly if there are private rooms to use. I am fine with people saying "We're on a dinner date, so, no, you can't sit at our table," but to deny my character being allowed in the room at all? No, I'm going to pose my character striding over to your character's table and pouring the glass on wine on your head. Take it to a private room if you want to control who can join the scene.

To me? This makes you an asshole.

Its just completely disrespectful of other people in a collaborative environment. Asking to join a scene (of which I've heard a no maybe twice-- ever. In 2+ decades) isn't about being a jerk, its respecting that the ongoing scene might have reasons you can't just join in. Some are OOC. Its got 4 people, one of the players there just can't handle a bigger scene. This isn't unreasonable.

And if you are really going to pose your character striding over and reacting, you're like, that kinda asshole that doesn't get cleaned. But I think you're just showing off there and aren't really going to react ICly to OOC responses.

Why is being polite and showing respect asinine? Especially since the denial is so incredibly rare as to being extremely exceptional?

It's pretty asinine, from an outsider's perspective, because it's totally unnecessary by the admission of everyone on this thread who's explained why it's necessary.

I think the idea that you would ask someone if you can join a scene just to be able to determine that they're an arsehole on the off chance they say 'no' is pretty weird. That seems like a person is begging to get offended. It's a social construct that makes no sense. It's inefficient. It's a waste of time.

Maybe there's a better way of doing things. Just a thought.

@ThatGuyThere said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I think one of the big reasons people tend to be conflict averse on mushes as opposed to muds is that Mud have code that is likely unbiased. I mean you can write code that cheats but that is a lot of work and easy to discover by others with access to the code. On a mush especially one that uses tabletop rules conflicts are adjudicate by people. This is a feature not a bug but also raises the specter of favoritism, especially in OWoD where book rules were written vague on purpose by the designers.
I know on games where I trust staff I am much more open to conflict rp then on games where I am less trusting of staff.

Don't think I can get behind this theory.

I'm new to MUSHes, but I've played quite a wide variety of MUDs and RPGs over the years, from IRE to RPIs to play-by-post to tabletop and Skype-group D&D.

By far, Iron Realms Entertainment's balance-MUDs, which are the most code-heavy places I've played on for longer than a month, had the whiniest, worst sports and sour losers. I mean sure, people there are more competitive, but I'm sure anyone who's played there can back me up on the drama caused by issue (report-a-player) storms, accusations of people abusing OP skills, unfair ganking tactics, etc. Cries of foul-play are worse there than anywhere, despite everything being so tightly controlled by code and 'game law' alike.

I've always had a lot more fun on freeform RP sites. Without any kind of coded punishment or measurable e-peen points to accrue, people feel they have less to lose and can just let go in favour of focusing on the story. And since you can only 'win' by emoting a scene so awesome that people happily go along with it, it's in everyone's best interests to strive to win one another over socially, in that way — even if that social aspect is just as anonymous writers with high regard for one another.

You do bring up a great point though, which is trust. I suppose building that is what makes or breaks MUSH conflict, in the end.

On the topic of self-selection that @lordbelh brings up, and with @faraday's (among others') analogy that explaining MUSH culture is more like explaining kilt-wearing in Europe than kilt-wearing in Scotland, I wonder if the setting one chooses is a good way to predict player trends. With Kushiel's Debut being a Lord-and-Ladies style MUSH that focuses on social/political intrigue, for instance (as I'm given to understand — I don't play there), are people more conflict-averse there than on say, the 100 MUSH, which is a criminals vs. tribes war/survival game?

@Thenomain said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@Kestrel

I would be okay with that second meta pose but a lot of people would bristle at it. It's entertaining and probably accurate. If you had posed how you thought he was a jerk but would never say so out loud, you are denying the other player retort to an insult. That is not okay.

Is it different if I use my character's silently-held disdain to explain the atmosphere of the scene? e.g.:

When @Thenomain walks up to Kestrel, she just glares. She thinks he's a jerk, but of course she'd never say that out loud. And so biting back her insult, she grits her teeth and says, "Good day... sir."

@mietze said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

I don't see the latter as an offensive metapose. If it had been something like the following:

@ixokai is one cocky motherfucker. Kestrel just stares at him with a baffled expression when he steps on up to that wall with the clearly stated intention of climbing it. There is no way he can climb that wall — look how short his stubby legs are. She is just so fed up with this guy, what with all the trouble he's caused her for the last week, she's cried herself to sleep every night. Why does he have to be so mean to her when no one's around? She can't wait until he falls off so that he knows how stupid he is.. "Go for it!" she says.

Oh, holy shit. I haven't come across that yet. When I do, I will run in the other direction.

@ixokai said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Let me first define "metaposing" as I mean it, as its something defined by people as different things.

Metaposing is the stuff that doesn't happen between quotes, and which does not describe a characters actions, appearance, or other overt outward displays.

You linked to my random bitch and said its about different in metaposing etiquette, but I disagree: my bitch was about powerposing, IMHO. Powerposing and metaposing are different. Powerposing is about writing about another character in such a way as their player's ability to choose their reactions is taken away.

Powerposing is NEVER OKAY. Never. Under any circumstances.

Metaposing is okay, in a limited degree, provided its about your own character or entertaining in general. It is NOT okay if its used as a vehicle to insert OOC commentary about other characters that those characters do not have an IC means to interpret and thus react to.

A certain amount of metaposing adds to atmosphere and entertainment, and as long as its not wielded against other characters, its fine. However, when its used to snark them and get in a comment that can't be responded to IC, its unfair and not okay.

So here's what I inferred from your post and the others that followed it. This is OK for me to metapose:

Kestrel is one cocky motherfucker. "I bet I can climb this wall in two seconds flat," she says with a smirk, stepping on up to the wall in question. There is no way she can climb that wall — look how short her stubby legs are.

This is not OK for me to metapose:

@ixokai is one cocky motherfucker. Kestrel just stares at him with a baffled expression when he steps on up to that wall with the clearly stated intention of climbing it. There is no way he can climb that wall — look how short his stubby legs are.

And so, with both of these examples of metapose, one is OK because it's my character I'm writing about, and the other is not because it's about yours and is a powerposing (or godmoding, as MUDers where I come from would call it) metapose. I inferred that it's the combination of the two that becomes a problem.

y/n?

@Three-Eyed-Crow said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

A certain subset of mushers are extremely conflict averse. Since I'm not, I expect I tend to attract other players who aren't, while putting off those who are.

players who want to OOCly avoid this [conflict] stuff don't necessarily play PCs who're un-wonky or super-easy to get on with ICly.

This boggles the mind, really. Surely if one doesn't want to participate in IC yelling matches, they shouldn't play a character prone to yelling. But I know exactly what you mean, and I've seen that this isn't, apparently, common sense.

All the advice I've seen so far on this thread is really helpful. Thanks all.

@faraday said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

• Ask before posing logs containing sensitive/private IC information.

What constitutes sensitive/private IC information on a MUSH other than TS? I could be misreading between the lines, but based on various communications and the one instance where I asked someone, 'Can I post this?' I felt like I was met with this weird implication that one should always have nothing to hide, and that if you aren't entirely open about your character's motives/secrets, you're being kinda sketchy.

@lordbelh said in Cultural differences between MUDs and MUSHes:

Personally I really dislike too much OOC communication, especially when it (and it often does) lends itself towards OOC manipulation of events and layering pressures and expectations of what should happen, for fishing for ways to avoid even slightly unfavorable consequences. But a lot of players have a vastly different opinion of me on it, believing OOC communication to be the key to happy funtimes. My solution has just been to do it my way, deal with the occasional (and there's never been much of it) fallout with a shrug and a smile. (ETA: Or a cyber screaming match. WHATEVER WORKS.)

So far this is probably the biggest source of MUSH-related culture-shock for me, I think. I had my character react a certain way to something they found off-putting, for very IC reasons (though I found it great) — and received an OOC apology for the off-putting behaviour, with a clarification that it wasn't intended to be off-putting. Is this normal? Do many MUSHers have an aversion to conflict-based RP, and/or take the stance that character behaviours should be altered to cater to harmony with other characters? I mean beyond the basic, 'we need an excuse to stay in a scene together'.

@Thenomain: thanks for the explanation on metaposing, that 100% clears up all of my confusion around it.

ETA: I realise I'm dealing with generalisations here, so while many have expressed the sentiment that everything is a 'sometimes, some people, everywhere/everyone is different', my reason for raising some of these questions is that on MUDs, a lot of this stuff is practically unheard of (or even strictly forbidden). It's the same token by which not all Scotsmen wear kilts, but you're definitely a lot more likely to see them there than in England. So I ask, 'How widespread is kilt-wearing in Scotland? Will I be looked at funny there if I don't wear a kilt?'

In my transition from MUDs to MUSHes in the last few weeks, lately I've been coming across a lot of terms that I've never (or rarely) heard before:

• Posing — which means emoting
• Metaposing — which means the opposite of show-don't-tell, and apparently is sometimes acceptable, sometimes not
• TS — which means mudsex

And a whole bunch of other things. I've also been encountering culture shock, which for me is a lot harder to learn to manoeuvre around.

• Different attitudes towards what constitutes creepy player behaviour, addressed by me here
• Anger over metaposing etiquette, brought up by others here
• The lack of spontaneity in stumbling across RP on the grid, partly explained here
• The ubiquity of OOC communication
• Preferences for openness about characters' hidden motives vs. a preference for mystery and secrecy

These are just the ones I've observed, to name a few, but I'm sure there are others I haven't picked up on yet.

Naturally, when in Rome, one should do as the Romans do, though it's a little hard when there's so little documentation the Romans have about their unspoken rules. I was wondering if anyone who's made similar cross-genre forays would care to share observations they've made about the cultural differences.

I'm particularly interested to hear from MUSHers: what are some aspects of player etiquette you would consider to be required, and which are more take-it-or-leave-it? For example with metaposing, what does everyone agree you shouldn't do, and where do personal preferences come in? Note, I'm not really interested in the 'be yourself, all roleplay is subjective' attitude, because it can be very easy to offend, or worse, bore people if you don't engage them according to their expectations. And that's going to kill potential interactions faster than confusing 'your' and 'you're'.

@Arkandel said in Tips on Güd TS:

[You should] ask. "Hey, my character's RP with yours was funny, I kinda see them becoming an item, what do you think about that?". It's that clear, and if they say no it's okay.

The key in both cases though is be prepared to take 'no' for an answer, and that means paying the other person the courtesy of asking them so they get to answer. What is distasteful is shadowing some guy/girl around, showing up in every scene or paging constantly asking for RP then nagging them IC for a relationship. That just isn't cool. Sometimes - hell, often-times - it can work organically without an OOC conversation first but given the sensitive material at hand having a chat early on saves a lot of headache down the line.

Whatever you do, no matter what, for the love of $deity do not spring coercion on people unless it's been discussed in advance. That's the only real no-no in any of this. Your mileage concerning such things can vary wildly; some people figure IC is IC so anything goes, other people only tolerate IC consensual relationships, that's up to you... but no matter what do not try to IC coerce a relationship or sex without discussing it OOC first, ever. Ever.

That means no blackmail going into a kinky direction, no spilling vitae into the cheerleader's mouth to make her love your character, no using Awe or Mind 4 to alter their perceptions, no forcefully accidentally whoopsie tearing clothes off during a fight... nothing. It's an instant trip to the creepy side even if it turns out afterwards they were okay with it. You were still a creeper, you just got lucky (no pun intended ).

Just ask first!

So, funnily enough, I find the exact opposite of what you're describing to be 'creepy behaviour'. I say this as a female who's been pestered for her number, address and nudes on MUDs by people I made the horrendous mistake of engaging in IC relationships, even ones which were strictly fade-sex only, even with the knowledge that I was in a committed RL relationship and was discussing everything that happened in-game with my partner to make sure she was cool with it. Even during a time when I was underage, as I've been MUDing for over half my lifespan.

I don't know you, so for all I know you're the most pristine fellow on the internet, with an impeccable degree of respect for your fellow humans and the social acumen to never make anyone uncomfortable. (Based on your comments on the Haven thread, I don't have a negative opinion of you.) I do know though that while I agree that 'communication is key' in most contexts, an excess of OOC communication with someone I'm TSing or co-writing a fictional relationship with is going to make me run for the hills. I suspect that partially, this is a cultural discrepancy between MUDers and MUSHers — most MSBers seem to be of the latter, and I've only started dabbling in that genre in the last couple weeks; the level of OOC communication that's expected/allowed there is taking some getting used to.

I find it much, much worse if someone is trying to OOCly coerce a relationship or sex without roleplaying the approach IC first and do not deem the reverse coercion at all. To me, IC is IC. If it makes sense for your character to spike my cheerleader's drink, as much as I reserve the right to request a fade if I get squicked, then by all means, go ahead. Unless you're incredibly cheesy about it, I will probably laugh quite a bit if whoopsie clothes-tearing occurs during a fight in the style of this scene. The minute some fucker starts messaging me OOC to say 'nngh, your character is hot', sending winkyfaces or asking me how I feel about our characters entering a relationship — holy fuck, I'm gone. The answer to that question, by the way, is usually I don't. I don't feel anything about our characters entering a relationship, at least not before it's happened; I go with the flow, and if it happens, it happens, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. What ever happened to good old-fashioned 'roleplay it out' and 'find out IC'?

I certainly have some criteria for whom I will and won't RP a relationship with. Does the player have IC/OOC separation issues? Do they write well? Does their character draw me in, and can I see myself writing with them without getting bored for extended periods of time, on a regular basis? (And as mentioned above, minimal OOC communication is a plus, for me.) But ultimately, it's about our characters' feelings for each other, not the players' feelings for each other, not the players' feelings for the characters, or anything else. I don't seek to enter IC relationships with characters I deem 'hot', but rather with characters whom I deem to have interesting stories which will mesh well, organically and realistically with the story I'm telling on mine. On the whole, I'd say that the more likely I am to find a character attractive IRL, the less likely I am to want to RP a relationship with them IC; give me flaws, wrinkles and quirks for a story that has depth and meaning, not a cookie-cutter happily-ever-after that I'd rather pursue IRL. I respect everyone's right to pursue whatever it is they're looking for when they RP, but wish-fulfilment doesn't appeal to or impress me. I almost always play characters whom I feel in some degree superior to.

If a character hits on mine, my character will either say 'yes' or 'no' based on what makes sense. If it makes sense for my character to say 'yes' but I want to say 'no', I will find some IC excuse, like 'whoops, got no condoms', 'wink wink maybe next time but gotta dash', or 'you're cute but my wife died last year and I'm still in mourning'. Conversely if IC rejection happens, then that ought to make for just as good a story as sparks flying would. I wouldn't want someone to ask me if I can see our characters ending up together in order to decide whether or not their character should be interested in mine in the first place. If it makes sense for your character to be interested, my character's interest or lack thereof shouldn't affect that, at least not initially. I'd have been spared a lot of heartache from unrequited love if that was how desire worked, and spared an equal amount of delight from shared desire were it so meaningless a realisation. These are the stories I want, but if you're only pursuing perfection, I suppose we wouldn't work out, anyway.

The only kind of communication I want is when things are on the verge of getting graphic or intense. I will always send out a tell/page saying, 'Hey, let me know if at any point you're uncomfortable with the scene, and we can stop, skim or ease up,' and I expect the same from a roleplay partner if they're initiating (or heck, even if they're not). I don't appreciate people springing penises and upskirt-dives on me unsolicited, and if it happens after I've made my boundaries clear, then so help me, so help them, so help everyone. I'm baffled though by the notion that people should ask first before they even proposition someone IC; how is that less off-putting than propositioning someone OOC? I've never been called creepy based on my sexual/romantic roleplay styles, though granted, I'm willing to accept that maybe no one's just ever had the guts to tell me. Nonetheless, I think I'm pretty good at inferring whether someone enjoys my RP based on how often they seek me out for it, based on the effort they put into their emotes when interacting with me, based on whether they'll stick around in a scene for hours and based on whether they greet me enthusiastically on OOC channels. If my character hits on them and any of these things change, I back off. My policy of 'roleplay it out' does not apply to harassing people who've expressed/implied disinterest in interacting with you altogether.

On the topic of perfection and my disinterest in it as a storyteller: let me just add that the absolute worst TS I've had in recent memory, barring a two-sentence fade with someone who was stalking me on multiple alts and used mind-control to eventually corner one, was the worst by virtue of the fact that if it happened IRL, it would have been the best I've ever had. It had me staring at the screen thinking, 'Who is this chick? What the fuck is happening here?' Amid all the ecstatic moaning, back-arching, eyelash-fluttering and orgasmic gasps, I ended up just having my (male) character finish early and fall asleep. Scenes which started with yelling matches, awkward fumbling and ended with brooding, confusion or dissatisfaction were hotter by far. Someone suggested talking OOC about likes or dislikes? You're missing out. I once ended a sex scene when my character's partner pulled out a knife and told her it would turn him on if she'd cut him in the midst of it. Her response was 'wtf', she fell off in confusion without finishing, and instead we RPed the couple talking out their differences and limitations IC.

P.S.: Great thread. I lol'd mucho. Thanks for making my Saturday, @Auspice.

@ixokai said in The 100: The Mush:

@Kestrel said in The 100: The Mush:

As a suggestion, be more sneaky. Have smaller meetings with fewer people, even if you make them public via +event with a participation cap. This would have been a perfect way to handle the Grounder prisoner thing, for example.

Then those who did not get as say are upset. This has already happened.

This would be a circumstance of where I just shrug and say 'haters gonna hate'. Like, with the spontaneous camp-wide meeting that Quinn and Morgan threw, I'm not really torn-up about those who missed out. Nor that events are on a first-come-first-serve basis and that inevitably, some are just not going to fit your schedule.

nor to elect official leaders to involve them. There's a group going to the Grounder village soon, for example. Why don't others sneak off to do the same even though they aren't part of the official 'delegation'? That sort of happened in the show, too, when trigger-happy Jasper and Bellamy tailed Octavia and Clarke to make sure they stayed safe while trying to meet with Anya on the bridge, then fired shots and ruined everything.

Look at the crap Grey/Fiona/Faolan are getting for doing exactly that and releasing the grounders

I don't think that's quite the same thing. I was watching the who list when three people randomly appeared to be having a scene in a private room. There wasn't an open invite or an opportunity for people to stop them, track them, etc. I don't know that I would have participated had there been an option, but I think having that option would have appeased many people who are now discontent.

[...] and what I got for calling the ark.

I don't mind the crap-- they're consequences, and deserved ones. But as a direct result I now have multiple bitter enemies.

As one of the people who ICly expressed disapproval of this, let me just say that I have a grand 0 problems with your character taking matters into his own hands and calling the Ark. My character does. But it was a necessary action that was going to cause conflict one way or the other, and the choice you made has given the story traction for a lot of people. Good job. The choice was different from what happened with Grey/Fiona/Faolan, because it happened in the midst of an +event which a lot of people were involved in and could react to and fight over.

A unity movement didn't happen on the show, but we aren't exactly following the show. We have our own characters and they are affecting how the story unveils based on the particular details of their desires, personalities, ambitions and execution.

I don't have a problem with this. Also let me state for the record that my criticisms are pretty minor and I don't actually care that much. I'm having oodles of fun on this MUSH, I don't expect that to change any time soon, and my regard of Grey, Faolan on Fiona hasn't changed from the positive first impression they created as characters/roleplayers.

@ixokai said in The 100: The Mush:

@Kestrel said in The 100: The Mush:

There is only one thing so far about the game that I really don't like: I think the senate is a silly idea.

Note, staff's not pushing that exactly, players are. Among them, mine. Why? Because there's a big undercurrent of "everyone needs to get a say" and giving "everyone a say" is an absolute nightmare logistically and completely not fun.

Morgan, Max and Quinn tried to give everyone a say on Saturday and called a spontaneous meeting and it devolved almost immediately into a shouting match. Its kind of horrible.

As a suggestion, be more sneaky. Have smaller meetings with fewer people, even if you make them public via +event with a participation cap. This would have been a perfect way to handle the Grounder prisoner thing, for example.

Show spoilers ahead:

Remember back when Bellamy was just a dick championing 'Whatever the hell we want', and what he wanted was to get Clarke and Wells' bracelets off? So first he, Murphy, and Nameless Goons #2 & #3 cornered Wells for a beating to pry it off by force, then he agreed to join Clarke on a group expedition so that he could be smarmy and wait for his opportune moment to pry it off of her.

Yeah, giving everyone a say is a nightmare. But you don't have to give them an IC say, nor to elect official leaders to involve them. There's a group going to the Grounder village soon, for example. Why don't others sneak off to do the same even though they aren't part of the official 'delegation'? That sort of happened in the show, too, when trigger-happy Jasper and Bellamy tailed Octavia and Clarke to make sure they stayed safe while trying to meet with Anya on the bridge, then fired shots and ruined everything.

Whoa man. I'm sensing there's an undercurrent of drama here, but as I don't really know any of you, didn't play 5W and don't have a history of any kind (positive or negative) with the 100 MUSH's staff, I'm going to avoid stepping into that and just comment on my experiences, which have been overwhelmingly awesome.

It's now officially been two weeks since I joined. This is my first MUSH, and aside from @dev, who's as new to the style and community as I am, I've never (to my knowledge) played with anyone who plays this game before and have no OOC contact. I missed the important landing event and did not become involved until 3 IC days after it. Despite this, everyone has been immensely welcoming, I was readily involved in an ongoing social scene the second I was ready to venture IC from chargen, and I since feel like I have been warmly accepted as an equal part of the community and afforded all the respect and regard I could ask for. It took all of three days for people to start adding me to their relationship info on their wiki pages, plenty of people have sent me friendly pages indicating they like my character, and I received a flattering number of cookies in my first week. (They're kind of like anonymous little thumbs-up you can freely give to people you enjoy roleplaying with, which they see the tally of at the end of the week and help them earn 'luck' points to spend on rerolls and hero moments, etc.)

Are there cliques and characters with backstory tie-ins? Sure! But I have no problem with the way they handle themselves in this MU*. A prominent example would be the 'Tesla Three', which consists of Fiona, Martin and Lip, whose backstory tie-in is that they staged a social justice protest on the Ark by chaining themselves to the doors of the Tesla Station, resulting in them being incarcerated for treason. (Currently all characters in play must be juvenile delinquents, as it's part of the setting.) I find their backstory to be a compelling and interesting plot-hook, which I've regularly brought up IC when talking to/about them. I've interacted with all three characters, both as a group and individually, and though they definitely have a clique thing going, it is not exclusionary or detrimental to the setting, but quite the opposite.

Some players, though they are few and far between, can be a little standoffish and may require a scene or two before they start being friendly. I think this is normal, and it doesn't bother me; there were plenty of other people to interact with, and once I'd gotten my foot in the door (which didn't take long), they were as inclusive as anyone else has been. I would advise new players (on any game, not just this one) not to be discouraged just because a few people take some warming up to.

The game is packed full of excitement. Almost too much, as some people have pointed out, but I have to hand it to staff for how evidently they put their blood, sweat and tears into the stories they craft. The action moves fast, which suits me better than slow, dull social RP settings I've played in the past, and something new, intense and meaningful happens nearly every single day. The 'lack of threat' which @Admiral has pointed out, in the sense that characters are unlikely to die unless their players want them to, doesn't bother me. People have been captured, attacked, injured, threatened and run for their lives. The adrenaline factor is real, even if only NPCs die. That the emphasis is on how our stories develop around danger rather than just having a bloodbath and killing off PCs suits me fine.

I think it's a little disingenuous to say that you don't have to have watched the show to play this game. You probably don't have to be up to date with the entire series, but I do think that watching just the first episode provides a lot of background information for the setting which would help new players. I also think that whether you've seen the show or not, if you aren't apt to like it, you aren't going to like the MUSH either. The theme is survival in a post-apocalyptic world; it's gritty, intense, political, raw, occasionally violent and occasionally with smatterings of angst. There is moral complexity, and your character will eventually get blood on their hands, directly or indirectly, whether you like it or not. They will have to make tough choices. From an observation, I think the players who are having the best time on the MUSH so far are those who are embracing the theme fully and placing themselves at the midst of the action, at risk of such choices, rather than just faffing around camp. There's nothing wrong with faffing around, I just think that if that's you, you shouldn't be surprised if you don't have as much fun.

The staff know what they're doing on a level that intimidates me. Coming from a long line of MUDs with coders at the helm (and even staffing in one), I am now fully convinced that having storytellers at the helm is the only way it should be. They have the creative freedom to offer a lot, to everyone, and in processing my application, they were nothing short of helpful and patient in answering questions and asking me to make a few minor tweaks. I have thus far found them to be 100% transparent and open about how everything works, who they play, what powers they have as staff and what they don't. The system they employ to aid in action scenes, FS3, is good, clean, hassle-free, and very easy to learn and understand after ten minutes maximum of bleary-eyed confusion. I haven't used it before, but would again. I will also add, in staff's favour, that they seem to not be batshit crazy. I think this bears mentioning because it's a rarity in roleplaying communities, and I want to make it clear that when I say they're friendly and helpful, I don't mean that as a euphemism for 'overbearing and neurotic', which it very often is. A+ for staff sanity and approachability.

I'll touch briefly on the point about staff PCs stealing all the action: Yes, Grey (Orion/ @Seraphim73) is a central character. But I don't think he's more central than Cole, Quinn and Fiona, neither of whom are staff-played, to my knowledge. I'll admit that I sniffed a bit when I saw he'd had a bunch of scenes with the Grounder prisoner and then a lot went down before anyone could process, especially since it involved learning that the Grounders speak English and that Mountain Men exist. I would have preferred for that to be a lot more drawn out, and less centred on such a small group of characters interacting with the prisoner. I'm also sad that such major reveals were made before the moment of maximum tension (e.g. when the Mountain Men actually show up to abduct us). But I think they did a good job of rectifying it when they came back the next day, more action happened which they involved many more people in, and though he got the spotlight for one scene, I don't feel like I was excluded from the overall arc. It also just so happens that Grey is a terrific character by a terrific roleplayer. He's engaging, inclusive, writes well, has a thematic backstory which he plays to consistently, and he makes a point of acknowledging other people's backstories as well in his RP. I've enjoyed his involvement in every scene I've had with him, so it really doesn't bother me that he's a central character. With the exception of that one thing with the Grounder prisoner, his centralisation has been an organic result of his interaction with other players.

There is only one thing so far about the game that I really don't like: I think the senate is a silly idea. It doesn't fit the theme, will lead to plot marginalisation and will favour those playing mature and responsible characters. While I have no problem with mature and responsible characters existing, as they are necessary counterpoints, most of us are playing teenagers enjoying their first taste of freedom the way your average teenager would, and so the counterpoints are a little less thematic, even if it's necessary to have exceptions. Even Clarke and Bellamy aren't official leaders in the show, and they aren't universally liked. They just end up leading often because they raise good ideas, and I would prefer it if the 100 MUSH also just allowed leadership to organically flow towards whoever ends up having good ideas in the moment. We're teenagers, after all. And while it's been said this is the result of IC talks, they're IC talks that I wasn't privy to, and don't think the majority of NPCs would be privy to or support. The senate idea's also been given staff support for voting, so it's a little beyond that now.

Anyway. Play the 100 MUSH. Involve yourself in +events, they're a great way to get your foot in the door and be a part of the action. Wiki and +sheet-stalk people during your first scenes with them so you know which plot-hooks to raise, just like when you bring up the Summer they spent in France as a talking point with a Tinder date. And, uh... haters gonna hate, I guess. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Hi everyone.

Massive fangirl of the 100 TV show here. I'm interested in joining, and @Dev had told me good things about the MUSH and community so far. I understand that the dropship goes down today and that this will be the game's official launch? Unfortunately, I have real world obligations tonight and won't be able to make it on time for what will probably be an epic opening scene, or even submit my character for approval before then. Would this present a problem? If not, I might be able to sign up either tomorrow or a couple hours after launch. I'll read the log and try to fit in accordingly.

I've read through the wiki and I have an idea for a character concept, but if there are any noticeable gaps in needed roles among the current cast, I'd also be happy to adapt. I read the part of the wiki that says 'just make something you'd really enjoy playing', but the truth is I consider myself a very versatile roleplayer, and what I enjoy most is trying out new concepts and breaking type.

I don't know if the MUSH's staff read this thread, but if they do, feel free to message me. (Does MSB have messaging? I'm new to this community.) Alternatively, give Dev a prod in-game and she'll pass on your message. I haven't asked for her permission to use her as an owl, so she might scowl at you first. I'd log in myself to ask this stuff, but I'm currently on my phone and will be for the next 5 hours or so, by which time I'm told you will have launched.

May we meet again.