Posts made by Kireek

Let me break this down as simply as I can..

Keep in mind that the book I Referenced is very well known and respected in Poland and Germany, and brings up a lot about psychology, culture and society and adapting to negative situations.. This is a well established cultural discussion point, and this game was written by poles, designed by poles, and made by poles, many of whom probably had that book as required reading.

Let us move on then towards what is happening...

1. WHy did CD Project Red make this sequence instead of something else? There was a point to spend meticulous man hours on what is ultimate a sequence which could be done a myriad other ways. This was done with a purpose what purpose?

2. To show that the world of cyberpunk is fucked up? HOW? How is it showing its fucked up? Why is this necessary?

3. Becuase there is a market for BDs like this, that society has decayed so much that death is commercialize. But how does this market exist?

4. We reach the crux of the problem... and the original post. It isn't freaks that make the market, there are too few to really make such a detailed operation sustainable..

And instead of dressing it, I wonder why people are so quick to point out it isn't real and fake.. when that.. clearly is obvious? Like no duh? It doesn't change the fact people are participating in this sequence without questioning it. Just following along, perpetuating the market in this game..

That raises no eyebrows or questions? None at all?

As for why it is a trick.. eh, it doesn't really explain what participation means in a broader context. I'm not arguing that watching a video game snuff film is somehow morally hazardous, but is instead illuminating about how easy it is to manipulate someone into DOING something that COULD be morally hazardous.

@derp Ohhhh! Makes sense! Yah okay, I see that now.. hrm, but stonks are basically gambling... I wonder how this'll hold up as they'd have to show intentional negligence right?

I'm curious to know what a persons injury would be that couldn't be resolved through a refund? Lost time I guess?

@wizz The goal here is how easy it is to be psychologically tricked and conditioned into contributing to horrible things without realizing you have a way out. That perhaps whatever the context, or justification, you still may be tricked at the end of the day, and that there is a larger lesson to be learned about life and the human condition through this sequence. It's easy to go this would never happen to me, this is a video game, its easy to delineate what is right and wrong.. and then never engage with the actual subject at hand about what just happened.

@derp I would recommend that book, it basically articulates a very similar argument or 'opinion' just about a different context.

@runescryer I know what encompasses btls, calhots, BD's and everything in between from stage productions involving dragons, cutting edge AR Video games to pornographic records. IN this regard, I am discussing specifically snuff.

@derp I disagree, I actually know exactly what I am talking about, and there is no conflation of reality and fantasy. What I am getting at is that thankfully this lesson isn't real, but it should still be a lesson.. but I guess I'm not articulating it well enough, so I guess someone else will need to articulate it for me..

https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-Men-Reserve-Battalion-Solution-ebook/dp/B01G1F0F84

Discussing what this sort of thing looks like in real life tends to take some very, VERY dark turns.

@auspice A gross characterization of my point, and frankly insulting. I hold no moral superiority in this regard.

Considering many folks unless properly aware of the context of what this is is going to run through it... and not realize that they were trapped/tricked. Instead of trying to justify how it isn't real, maybe instead engage with the idea of how easy it was to become complicit in this worlds criminal BD scene, and ask how horrifying it is that its so easy to just sort of slide into it.. even in our real world now. An Ordinary person is just as vulnerable to these hardcore BD's as some freak in the right set of circumstances. The market doesn't exist because there are a few bad eggs or hardcore freaks, but everyday users like you or I.

@derp See, again with the dissociation, but I don't know that is entirely appropriate in this case? The way I see it, the lines are incredibly thin, there are far too many comparable justifications/reasons that should make things uncomfortable close life. The game is trying to get a message across with this sequence.. and you might go its the world is fucked up.. sure.. but that everywhere in the game, it's on the street corners, in the corporate high-rises. The world is fucked.

This sequence is trying to get at something else- why would they make it a first person BTL otherwise? You could of just done an investigation of distribution networks.. but you do the BTL.. why? Because they want you to go through it, have that choice. But then why did they do that? What is the reason and motivation of a Polish studio to demonstrate how easy it is to dehumanize and be complicit in some sort of criminal activity?

@Auspice I mean this with the best possible intentions, and humor but I never expected to be gatekept with regards to snuff film. That wasn't something I was aware of that I'd have to deal with lol.

And again missing the representation, the undertones, why is this being done?

Evenlyn's trauma is a diffirent problem all together, having to do with Bunraku Sex Dolls,

and your right, it is a bit of a reach to say actively contributing, but perhaps more apt to say- how easy it is to trick you into it?

@derp My post disappeared, so I'll have to rewrite..

The point is that I am making is that cyberpunk is about the insidious dehumanization efforts of the world on the average person. It isn't just a 'dark' game, it is more than that..

And by watching that all the way through because you wanted a 'dark' experience, to fully experience 'cyberpunk' you fell into a trap, you dehumanized yourself, you cheapened the human life, all of existence, to a dark experience'.

And saying that call of duty promotes violence isn't what I'm getting at, at all, it's far more insidious, far more disturbing.. because most people arn't going to be special forces- that disconnect is easy..but what about watching TV? Remember, you had the option to opt out right away, that ability was available, and the goal of the situation was to research- not experience the BD.

I've added a 'dark experience' to the list of possible reasons.

@wizz More than fair! Again, I won't deny its problematic, but at least in helped contribute to the dialouge, and Pondsmith IS changing and updating things. Better to adapt and change then just keep it the same right?

Shadowrun does a way better job at it- a lot more obvious, its easy to point out how racism is fucked up when you literally just make another race to expy for Blacks- great way to help demonstrate the concept of systematic racism too, in easy to understand terms!

Cyberpunk (the game, not the genre) doesn't have that going for it sadly, and so has to just be more overt at times, and sometimes that makes it age really, really poorly.

So, just forewarning if the phrase Mothshead doesn't mean anything to you, you havn't progressed enough in Judy's storyline to know what I am talking about, and this entire thread will be spoiler for one particular sequence. Be aware however, that I think it is important that you be prepared for it, because the game does not at all address the moral/emotional/ethical considerations of the sequence at all, and instead just assumes the players know what is going on.. Also I use the terms BD and BTL interchangeably, they are for different settings but effectively mean the same thing.

So as you progress in Judy's story line, you are out to find your employer and rescue her.. but in order to get it, you need to buy a BTL/BD.. and you turn it on.. and you start in a dark room, getting dragged.. there is palpable fear going on, the man you are reliving the experience of is terrified..

At this point, less than 5 seconds in, I went third person, and went nope, not watching this, because it is a snuff btl. The description of the item hints that it is for sure, and the setting gives it away, but there is something more here going on that I think the game doesn't really address, and will make many people feel creepy/bad if they truly confronted what this entire situation could represent..

So I ask you, the player of this game the following questions;

Did you watch it all the way through first person?
Why did you watch it?

Did you watch it becuase;
You were curious what would happen?
You wanted to prove to yourself or someone that you were brave enough to finish it?
You find the concept of death fascinating?
You find it kinda sexy?
You wanted to experience, even a little bit, what it might be to die in such a fashion? Even if it is vicariously through a game?
It was just put in front of me so I watched it!
I wanted to enjoy a 'dark' experience!

Now why would someone buy a Snuff BTL in Cyberpunk 2077...
They were curious what would happen?
They wanted to prove to themselves or someone that they were brave enough to finish it?
They find the concept of death fascinating?
They find it kinda sexy?
They wanted to experience, even a little bit, what it might be to die in such a fashion? Even if it is vicariously through a game?
It was just put in front of me, so I watched it..
I wanted to enjoy a dark experience.

Let that sink in for a momment, the same exact reasons why I person might buy a BD in this world.. has the same reasons why a person like you might start getting into BD's.

The most horrible, commercialized form of death possible, the person in question, kept in a prison cell, perpetually afraid, told he was going to die, and then murdered via a futuristic method.. you bought a chip of that and watched it all the way through..

But it's just a video game you say! It's not real. Yah, BD"s arn't real, your right! The guys already dead! It's just a log of one of the most horrifying experiences of that person life, put on repeat for hundreds if not thousands of people to 'enjoy' on their own. It isn't real human suffering at all! Oh wait, you mean Cyberpunk 2077 is just a game? Okay but then.. BD's have Programmers spending countless man hours building an atmosphere, emotional tones or ideas. Carefully tinkering with lighting, making sure all the sensations of the program 'feel' right... a connection that should feel very unsettling. That wall is starting to feel really thin isn't it?

Take your most horrifying experience, and imagine it being captured on tape, for commercial profit, tinkered and tuned until it is perfected.. so that other people can enjoy it. I don't think anyone could live with that emotional damage, even if it wasn't a snuff film...
.

Now.. if you accept that a mistake was made, or are horrified.. just be glad it wasn't the real deal, that this wasn't a real thing.. and take comfort in it, and after this, you should be prepared for a day that hopefully will never come.... and the fact that CD Project red doesn't point this out before hand and after makes this pretty %#*#ing messed up in my opinion.

Edit:
To clarify, the message here is that it is ridiculously easy to fall into a trap, to be tricked into dehumanizing and marginalizing human life, and that the medium used, makes that line incredibly thin. The line is there, but it is thin, and is meant to make you think about how easy it was to get tricked into contributing to suffering/death/pain. Instead of spending hours trying to convince yourself this isn't real, and thus can't be possible, try and instead to spend time thinking about how you might resist similar incidents in real life, and if you'd be smart enough to know that there is always an option to say no.

@wizz The I wrote this 30 years ago defense isn't really widespread at this point. Again, the dialogue is changing, 'cancel culture' (ugh hate that name) will slowly begin to adopt more nuance as time goes on, we are just living in the moment and all the ways out aren't obvious. Furthermore, a blackman writing about white people appropriating culture isn't.. like the most horrific thing I've seen. Clumsy written? yah, but it isn't like..

You know all of Owod Werewolf, even the well written books are aging incredibly poorly...

I find it amusing that people are arguing about politics n shit in the game, when the biggest problem is the game doesn't address the snuff chip enough.. I'm actually.. going to start a thread on it here. Maybe even reddit? Fuck it man.

@Wizz

Hate to bring back up a silly topic, but.. sometimes things just don't.. age well? People grow up? What was once an incisive critique/social commentary has aged REALLY poorly. Things change.. Judging books nearly 2-4 decades old at this point for being culturally savvy and appropriate is nearly as bad as expecting Birth of a Nation to have a nuanced view on race relations and immigration.

People who are like, well the voodoo boys were written as racist.. in a setting that is about like, hey racism is messed up.. is lie getting upset at vampires because it sexualizes blood. It's kinda built into the theme. Just the portrayals of that racism haven't aged well.. because.. this may be crazy.. the dialogue/nuances have changed.

What impresses me so much about Cyberpunk 2077 is its world building... as well as its story..

Did you know..

(Kinda spoilery, but not really
***=***

And a LITTLE more spoilers, but has nothing to do with the plot or anything relevant to V at all. If things have gone off the wall, you should of been able to figure this one out.

***=***

I buy books when I am able to.. but the hobby is too rich for my blood. So.. not often. I pirate basically everything becuase of it. Even books I legally own.

I do try and throw some money as well when things come out, especially for new stuff when I want to see whats in it right away (and you know. copies or the info isn't available by other means). So you know, I have like 3 books on things like shadowrun legally purchased without the core book for example. Fun stuff.

So this is genuinely underway at this point, and we are looking for people to help test/build and generally encourage our coder to keep working and show interest.

There may yet be another fallout game. Give me a message if your interested or post here to let me know.

Got a server up and everything. We'll get more details out eventually, but for now at the very least we are planning to set the game in New Canaan and allow players to come from a variety of backgrounds as refugees to the city.

More later.

Tropico 4 is free atm on Humble Bundle. Full game, No expansions included it seems like.

C'mon @Arkandel man, I had written out why I was banned- and was accurate... and then... almost as if like clockwork, the standard WORA thing happened.

you know the one where after someone makes a post and then the reply is- that isn't what happened. Then almost like clockwork, Theno made the you shouldn't do that and then not say. I look at this thread, look at my logs and then have one of those moments- you know the ones.. where you go O'rly? Lets see where this goes.

I had to bite, and see what people would say. If that is cliche- just arguing to see if people could articulate anything educational or illuminating- then man, MSB went Meta somewhere that I was totally unaware of.

And don't claim that knowing that I've done more annoying and more difficult types of trolling before, you were in those threads where I quoted HR to himself so that he had to argue.. with himself.