Posts made by Sundown

I found that the Stabilization option in Manga Studio is the best thing in the world if you want to draw with a tablet. It makes drawing and sketching so much easier.

@Thenomain said:

The ads in Skype are pretty inane, but that is probably a marketing decision and we know that all Microsoft marketers are pure idiot.

Ads in Skype are easy to block, actually! In Windows at least, I have very little experience with Macs.

Control Panel > Internet Options (or under Network and Sharing) > Security tab > Restricted Sites icon.

Press the Sites button and type https://apps.skype.com in the text box, then press Add. Restart Skype, voila.

@Three-Eyed-Crow
Yeah, I remember Big Damn, lots of people were hopeful about that one and then it fizzled out. But I thought that was because of RL and whatnot.

I just don't see how playing a ship's crew is so different than having Werewolf packs, or coteries, or any kind of clique that forms just because people are people. I don't see why that would be the reason a game fails. You said it yourself, Gorram MUSH failed because of a terrible economy system, not because it had small crews.

Serenity mush worked really well in that lone regard.

@BetterJudgment said:

@Three-Eyed-Crow Given the number that have tried and failed (five besides the Blither Twins' game, with two essentially stillborn), I don't think it would work. Maybe it's that the ensemble playing necessary for being part of a wacky crew is just too hard to manage.

Did they really fail because the theme was somehow too difficult? I find that hard to believe, it's not any more complex than WoD. Mushes sometimes don't work out because of a multitude of other reasons. If a batshit insane couple managed to pull off a Firefly place, I don't see why it wouldn't work otherwise.

A Risk-like, territory heavy version of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
A well-conceived political single-sphere Vampire game, nWoD2. Vampire in a foreign setting, maybe Asia.
A supernatural game where there is still undiscovered, unmapped mystery and horror.
A well structured Amber-inspired game.
Fading Suns or Dune.

@Tempest said:

Didn't Tobias (the Invictus Prince) quit playing, immediately after getting killed via +job by an NPC or something?

I'm just going to correct this one patent lie in the sea of misinformation and misdirection that is your post. Tobias quit because he didn't want to play Prince anymore, OOCly. Staff /then/ made it into a plot in which other players could pursue the murderers.

I have nothing to say in reply to the rest of your post except to wonder who managed to get you this badly peeved. Because, whoa, mother of distortions.

@Coin said:

@Sundown said:

Also, all I see when @Coin says "narrative game" is "make your own fun." Which is okay, but ultimately it's an empty game unless /someone/ runs plots in which most of the playerbase can be included. Even then, if the playerbase is fragmented, it'll end up sandboxy, with consequences not really propagating over the entire game world.

If that's all you see, then you're not interpreting my comment to the fullest. But it is in part that, yes. But it always has been. If anything, my comment of "make your own game" is more "make your own fun", because god, yes, go, make your own game. Make ten games. Make all the games. Even if all you can contribute is ideas for metaplot, or an idea for a resources system, or anything--just get together with people and contribute.

Heh, I'm actually pretty good at finding and building my own fun. It's not something I even see as problematic about your game. As you said, it's just different, not better or worse. I completely agree with that.

It is just another "cultural" difference that I observe, when comparing with my experience with RfK. From that perspective, "narrative" feels like a euphemism. It's not all I see, just another difference I commented on.

However, committed staffers are a scarce resource. I appreciate that you've built a game which takes care not to overtax that resource.

In the end, if the game is only good because of staff involvement and boundless energy, as @TheGuyThere mentions above, then it is necessarily going to crash and burn, because no one can keep that up for long.

Well, I've done my best to outline reasons other than Shava's boundless energy which made the game good. Things that could conceivably be implemented elsewhere, in this form or another.

@Groth said:

The approach attempted by RfK for that question was to give the characters something to RP about. The purpose of territories/influences etc were not to let players play online RISK when not RP'ng, it was to provide a constant source of recent events to bring to the on-screen RP.

That's actually the point I was trying to make.

For the most part it was very successful, characters would constantly RP about territory negotiations, alliances, political backstabbing etc even to the extent we'd sometimes get mock complaints of 'I don't have the time to TS because I'm too busy with politics!'.

That was me. >.>

@Arkandel said:

I think that's a bit unfair. Unless you can provide specific examples which we can discuss on their own merit or lack thereof, most games are already being ran a certain way; they support certain themes, too. They might not be the ways you're used to or want but that doesn't mean that they lack them.

Going into environments created for different styles of gaming and expect what you had will be an exercise in frustration. It's not staff who are the problem, it's the management of your expectations.

That's not actually my criticism. I criticize the mindset and approach, not the specific things I might've been denied. I criticize the mindset which made HM staffers deny things outright because of some fear that players might abuse it. Nebulously, somewhere down the road, maybe.

The complete opposite of it is, for instance, if I ask Shava "can I release hundreds of butterflies in this character's mansion" and she figures out a way for me. Even though my initial idea didn't work with how she saw the background system, she figured out (unbidden) another way to do it. It's the approach in which I don't have to beg, or fear refusal of anything non-standard, where I can trust staff to help me work on my ideas so they fit the theme. It's just a completely different mindset.

See, I would've thought a mechanics, systems-heavy game would never be something I'd enjoy, but it was. I just let my friend handle the crunchy bits and I did the diplomatic schmoozing. Because on this game, the subtle intrigue play was actually finally possible.

Also, all I see when @Coin says "narrative game" is "make your own fun." Which is okay, but ultimately it's an empty game unless /someone/ runs plots in which most of the playerbase can be included. Even then, if the playerbase is fragmented, it'll end up sandboxy, with consequences not really propagating over the entire game world.

I do agree that every game is different. There's something else I haven't expressed, and it's... Basically, it's not polite to run roughshod over someone's game just because you want it to be something else. I have personally tried to be polite when I chargenned elsewhere; to learn about the game rather than impose my expectations on it. Even if I might think the game is silly for what it is. It's up to me whether I want to keep playing or not, under the conditions offered.

However, it is a bit sad to go from a game where staffers were eager to help you figure out some grand scheme and even push you along; to games filled with limitations and 'no you can't do this', 'no you can't have that', 'no we don't allow this or support that'. It's just sad. Creative hobby, meh.

@Arkandel said:

My advice to the OP: While it's still early and you guys still form a community, put it together. If you wait six months to start trying to put a game together it'll probably be harder to find the same interest.

While I have tried to assist in a more general way, by writing out the post, it will not be me who makes the next game. I will most certainly come play on it and try to help in other ways. Not all of us were made to staff. I have too much other stuff going on. Even just playing on RfK felt like a part-time job at times. I'm looking forward to just chilling, for a while.

Also, there /are/ attempts to make a new game, at least two that I know of. However, I heard one is suffering from the predicament of 'too many cooks'. I am not interested in such things. A good game will come from two-three people's focused vision and investment. If I can help, I'd be glad to, but I don't think it's in anyone's interest to add to the cacophony of desires and ideas.

This post wasn't just meant for former RfK players, it was meant for others who might make a vampire game in the future to think on ways to improve on their ideas. Just a springboard of possibilities, really, for anyone to run with.

@Arkandel said:

Although hardcoded elements could be borrowed to improve specific aspects of such games, would you say if you guys are looking for essentially a re-enactment of RfK or if you'd be satisfied with certain elements you enjoyed being incorporated in MU* you end up playing as may be appropriate for how they are already set up and ran?

That's a good question. Personally, I'd be thrilled if even just boons were coded into a vampire game and players left to run wild with it. However, Coin made a very good point earlier, and that's - you'd have to have staffers willing to deal with this kind of RP focus.

Realistically, there were too many complex systems on RfK to recreate it on any preexisting game. Sooner or later, trying to behave as if this isn't true, is going to devolve into drama. Conflict is going to get solved by the most crude methods available to players, and it will all go back to the old shit.

@Coin @Arkandel That's the problem I observed and why I devoted a large part of my post to it, including a huge bold warning. Because I predict this will erupt into drama, building even more resentment and creating a rift in the nWoD playerbase. When really, it's not necessary - all that's needed is more understanding on all sides.

@Arkandel said:

@Ganymede Everything else aside, ego management is an essential skill for all levels of MU*ing. I can see taking pride in your own work (whatever that may be - staffing, RPing, plot-running) but this sounds even more than unhealthy (which of course it is), it's unsustainable.

Something had to give - and of course, it did.

The reasons why RfK failed are complex, I would call that one a fairly minor contribution. I'd rather focus on the positives and see how they can be implemented in future games.

@Alzie said:

I am so confused by this. So, you're saying she shouldn't be happy that her game succeeded? That anyone that finds joy in the fact that their game succeeded is engaging in the construction of a personality cult? That is a narrow view. One you've probably engaged in.

That's not what I said at all. Being unable to accept even the most vague criticism of a person is a sign of a personality cult. My observation is that it took some brand of crazy to manage such an engaging, busy, incredible kind of game. This was Shava's, I think. Wanting to be loved and admired; it's an entirely too human trait. We all have it and express it in various more or less dysfunctional ways. Please, chill. If I wasn't positively impressed by her game and her work, would I have written 4 .doc pages of text about it?

I'd really prefer for a constructive discussion to form here, rather than devolve into blame-slinging. But yes, I understand this is an internet forum and manage my expectations accordingly.

I realize this is a super long effort post, but I thought there might be people wondering what kind of Kool-aid we were all drinking on RfK to think it was such an amazing game. I explained the things I enjoyed from a player's perspective, and it's only one person's view so it will not encompass everything or be completely objective. I just wanted to bring something constructive to the mushing community as a whole.

Feel free to chime in with other aspects of the game you feel worked well. I intended this as a primer on what an awesome vampire game could be, and what can work, so that future games might be inspired by it. It's not so much a praise for Kingsmouth as it's an attempt to figure out what made it work and what lessons from it could be used.

I wanted to organize my thoughts on this game before it's all forgotten. It also feels that people who haven't played don't actually know the draws of the game. It might also explain the cultural differences that the former players of RfK will bring to the games they go to.

In no particular order, there were various layers of the game that you could explore. You could almost view them as code-supported minigames, except they had setting-wide impact and allowed a character to exert control over the ingame world.

Use of boons/prestation was encouraged sphere-wide. It was worded on the wiki, if someone holds prestation over you, they have an interest in seeing you succeed. I thought it was a kinda hammy and obvious "encouragement," but in practice - players actually used them. Firstly, they were a great tool to resolve conflict. You accidentally poached in someone's territory, or kissed someone's ghoul? Pay prestation, and it's fine. Secondly, they were a tool for establishing power dynamics, so powerful because one could use them to influence votes. You have a status raise which you want to pass without trouble, whether it's in your clan, covenant or even Praxis-wide to be Prince? You start trading and collecting prestation over the important movers. Yes, prestation could be traded by players in the coded system.

Harpies had access to more boons code, oversight of all prestation in the Praxis and the ability to arbitrate it, or even deny it.There was a system with two Harpies, one of the current government regime and another opposed to it, to serve as each other's check and balance. The position of Harpy entailed a lot of work but also wielded a lot of practical power. For example, I wish I could've started charging trivial boons to reveal who holds prestation over who! (There was so little time, so much to do.) Status was the Harpies' other job, with 'laurels' also coded into the system. So with every Harpy report, the status positions on the Characters main page would shift and change. Status had bearing on other background aspects, Primacy I think. The Prince also had laurels to give, so he could greatly influence status.

I'm probably the worst person to write about this, as I'm not savvy with game mechanics, so I will only cover the aspects I found significant. The Territories system was something I enjoyed playing with. It was like a Risk-type minigame which actually affected where you could hunt for blood (among other things). This was the first time in my mushing history that I found the Socialize skill useful! It was used for finessing territories when acquiring them. You had to know which skills and stats you could game, and it was very exciting knowing that someone else was probably also doing it, and your rolls would be compared to see who wins.

Once you had a territory, you could improve its various stats over time, you could make it hold more blood for the +hunt code that let you feed (it was also possible to overhunt a territory). A territory also had Sites which had bonuses, for instance the Speakeasy would give you a +5 to Socialize, which you could use while rolling in jobs. The Regent of the territory could decide who to let feed there, or allow to use sites, or whether to charge prestation for that. You could also cause crises in your rival's territories, to mess with them.

Where this system completely broke down was, when covenants put their entire weight into gaining a particular territory. If I remember well, it almost led to an outright war between the Invictus and the Carthians. It also created these huge jobs where everyone from the covenant spammed all their dice so that a territory is won. I was not a fan of the feudal system staff changed to from this. I would've preferred if they'd corrected the former system in some way. It felt nice to roll your dice and use your sheet stats to gain a territory.

In the new system, the Prince chose the Governors, who chose the Stewards, who chose their Regents for particular territories and charged them rent. It was a boon-trading pyramid, where Stewards paid a major boon to the Governors to get Stewardship, and the Regents paid a minor to Stewards to stay in their territory. There was a possibility of monthly rent charging, as well as rumors of extortion. It would've been interesting to see how this system played out, and what long-term flaws or consequences it would've brought. Also, in the old system a character could hold a number of territories equal to their Status + some other stuff (Primacy?). In the new system, a character could only hold one. I'm guessing this was to stop territory-hoarding and I approve of that, because it would let more players get a stab at holding one.

Cants. This was seriously such a tiny addition to the game, requiring so little staff-work, yet it immensely simplified many aspects of vampire interaction. See a cant on a person? You're instantly aware they're a ghoul, who they belong to and who they're working for.

I love the way this game did rumors. I liked that you got beats for posting rumors on someone's wiki, that you could cover up who posted it, and that the rumor could be investigated to learn who posted it. I liked that rumors on the Cacophony board could also be squashed until they disappeared.

Beatsheets in general were awesome. You could claim a limited number of beats each week, for scenes, for theme, for aspirations, for frenzy, for +squees which were basically +reccs. I think maybe they should've lowered the number of +squees you could give per week. I disliked how they turned into something commonplace and reciprocative; I don't want to write congratulatory praise for normal RP. Still, maybe it encouraged people to be nice to each other, even if the motive is to get a +squee in return?

I know that beats were looked over by Shava before approving them, and it added to the workload. I think it should've been auto-approved, with an option for staff to look at them later. So when there's time, there'd still be a way to get to that juicy info, but it wouldn't be a workload requirement every week. With beats capped, what damage could it do anyway?

There were other systems I don't know much about, like Primacy and the various Influence tiers. There was not enough time to explore all the aspects of the game, at least to me. I wonder if the complexity is what made the better players come out on top? Make it hard and only those who can do it, will thrive? It also encouraged cooperation, because one person could not keep up with everything. I also loved that Resources mattered more than just for buying equipment, you could actually use them to get bonus dice on rolls. Bribe and buy your way to success! Many stats feel like sheet fluff, outside of RfK.

Ghouls being useful, that's already been mentioned elsewhere. Vampires didn't have as much +dt to do stuff in the system. Ghouls had much more, so a vampire would be smart with their downtime and delegate to the ghoul. Of course, this drove in the theme that vampires only have the short hours of the night to accomplish anything. Just the monthly upkeep for your retainers already took some of your downtime and blood.

Whatever you might say about Shavalyoth as a staffer, one thing stood out for me - she was unfailingly nice and kind to her players, and made an effort to be helpful. This is a standard that should be an example to anyone who wishes to staff. I know that some of the new staffers did their best to follow in these footsteps because I experienced it in brief interactions. It bridges the usual rift between staff and players, and makes mushing a much more pleasant experience.

Now, I have to be honest. It was obvious that the game was a source of ego-boost for Shava, a certain kind of personality cult which brought her an endless stream of praise and love from the players. It can't hurt to connect to a game where people send you adoring messages. Of course, nobody is that perfect. However, with how much work she was putting into the game, I guess that's a fair quid-pro-quo?

I won't go into the attempts to scale the game and bring in more staff, and how that failed. I just want to outline the constructive elements. However, while praising one good aspect of Shava's behavior, I have to keep perspective. The kindness in her approach to players is a good thing, the personality cult is a bit iffy.

The underlying plot of the game was possible to explore, and it's funny but to me it seemed something that ghoul and mortal players latched on more than vampires. It seemed that vampires were too busy. I know there was a God-Machine clock, and the Green Flame, and… something about a sleeping force that should be kept buried and asleep. I also loved that the Strix, VII and the Hunters were threats that felt real, from their occasional appearance through plots.

In my time on the game, I witnessed the fall and rise of two governments. Almost? I came in to a stabile Invictus rule and hear about the failed Carthian experiment. As Carthian underdogs, I witnessed and aided their climb to power, and then the beginnings of transition to yet another rule. I loved this knowledge that no government would last forever, and there was always something to scheme and plot towards.

To summarize, all of these background systems enabled a constructive game of vampire politics to take place. With so many ways that promoted subtle conflict, the more obvious and crude combat-conflict rarely happened. If a game had even just one of these systems implemented, for instance coded boons, it would already have better support for political play. If you want politics to work, you need to give your players tools for it. RfK's systems were too convoluted and complex, but I can see a pared-down, skeleton version of them working really well.

The difference between those of us who played on RfK and others, is that we know politics can work on a vampire game. It can work really well. I have my own horror stories of politics on other games, and how quickly it turned into a thoroughly unpleasant experience for everyone involved. For that reason, I completely understand why games would try to avoid it.

It's a culture shock to come down to. I suspect staff on other games will see former RfK players trying to grasp for political play even if there aren't any underlying systems to promote it. It's a huge difference in mindsets. The rest of you have the memories of horrors, we have the fresh experience of how engaging and constructive it can be. I'm not sure politics can work out on games that don't have the background build for it. It will inevitably boil down to the same shit that soured political play for many. This is a warning to former RfK players to be cautious with their enthusiasm. Otherwise you'll just make the rift deeper.

After playing on a game which offered so much, going elsewhere feels like stepping into a wasteland. What is there to do? Sandbox and TS, do the occasional plot…? One could argue that Requiem for Kingsmouth offered too much, leaving its players spoiled and ruined for other games.

@Tempest Except this thread consisted almost solely of misleading and misunderstood information that was simply untrue. I'm not the only actual player who had to come out several times to correct posters here who aren't even playing and have no idea what's going on in the game.

Just shut up and let us hate-rant on Hastur, who actually deserves it.

This thread is pages and pages of irrational bandwagon dislike for the game, by people who aren't playing but are somehow sure it's a terrible place. This thread has made me deeply mistrust anything posted on this forum, it was so completely warped from the actual reality of the game.

What @Munsell is saying is finally a legitimate, actual problem.

Being ignored and jerked around by staff has soured my experience significantly in the last couple of months.

That said, I've already managed to have more fun on this game than I've had in all my years of mushing. I'm not exaggerating. I managed to feel involved and accomplished in a vampire game, of all places. My actions mattered and weren't taken in a vacuum. I consistently have so much to RP about that there's no time for just fun, relaxing scenes of shooting the shit or meeting randoms. There is no time for TS. There's no time for Bar RP or slice of life or boring. I hear this from other players as well. Someone was just complaining to me that they were simultaneously playing several scenes at once, not getting enough sleep and it's still not enough to cover everything that's going on.

This game is insanely active and happening. If it imploded right now, my experience there would still have been worth it.

So I believe it is insane to manage, staff-wise, especially with the brunt of the effort being shouldered by Shavalyoth. I understand that sometimes unpopular decisions have been tried in order to alleviate this. However, this policy and the way the staffer acted about it... They change significantly what I was saying about the game previously. That the culture was friendly towards the player and not punitive, because of how small and tight-knit it is? Shavalyoth's open and kind approach to players is the complete opposite of this post and these recent actions. Why do you punish your loyal and invested playerbase? I trusted to see better here.

Ugh, I am super interested, but doubt I'd have the time. It's awesome that you're doing this, Cobalt! I only learned of Night Vale from this forum, and got quickly addicted.