Posts made by surreality

@thatguythere You don't see it as a bad thing. A lot of us who are trying to get shit done sometimes really do.

@thatguythere said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

The one area where we probably disagree is seeing the negative overwhelming the positive as an inherently bad thing.

I'm reading all this as 'in the constructive area, it would be, if it becomes overwhelmingly negative, it gets split/people can take that part to the Pit'. Which is more or less what happens now and isn't a bad thing really.

I dunno if we get a notice every time something splits, like 'discussion of the X situation has been moved to the Pit' or such, but something like that with a link to where it was moved would be helpful.

That would be enough to alert the prospective unwary newcomer that there is a major negative discussion going on with the ability to go look into it if they choose.

@misadventure said in Game Design is never easy:

I think what I am saying is I appreciate the visions, and the efforts of those who create these games, whether or not I am in the audience who finds the final product.

This is one of the reasons that I will always cheer on a new project.

It takes courage. It takes creativity. It takes real work. It takes time.

And there are no guarantees for any of it.

It's one of the reasons I will always support any ethical choice (and most choices are completely ethics neutral when it comes to these games -- things like where to set it, what time period, etc.) whether it's the choice I would have personally made or not. (I won't support things like, say, Elsa emailing abuse to people, because duh. That's the kind of thing I mean about unethical choices.)

There are a lot of things I disagree with. I still believe in encouraging people to try them, and explore the possibilities of them. They might work, and that would be awesome! If they don't, we've collectively learned something from that, too, and maybe they or someone else can fix it so it does work.

Every creative endeavor -- and I consider world building, grid building, roleplay, plot running, and even code to be creative endeavors -- is a constant learning process. Everything is constantly in a state of being refined. Sometimes this is from one game to the next, sometimes within a game. I think that's actually a pretty healthy thing, and it speaks well of those willing to do it. I start things over from scratch repeatedly for exactly this reason more often than I ever imagined I would at the outset, and that goes for not just games, but all the other artsy foo-foo I do. (I lost count of the number of times I've restarted the current knitting project to refine it, for instance; I know it's over twenty.)

@Sonder and @Wretched for Fallcoast.
@Seraphim73, @GirlCalledBlu, and @Auspice for The 8th Sea.
@Taika for DescentMUX.
@Coin for Eldritch.
@tragedyjones for Reno1 and BITN.
Annapurna (not sure of her forum name or if she has one) for Fate's Harvest.

@Apos @faraday Exactly that.

Beyond that, these kinds of threads are currently scattered amongst Ads, Constructive, and Shout in the Dark. That's not really helpful, and proves how much they don't really have a home. If (generic) we are serious about growing this hobby and improving things, having a designated home for this content -- and to encourage the creation of games and innovations in existing ones -- it needs its own space.

It is actively heartening to pop into some of the threads where people are brainstorming like this. Others, yep, personal experience included, become nightmares of 'I hate that and it's just stupid because it's not what I like' or endless 'unless it's just like <other thing> it's going to be a piece of shit' or 'this thing (that almost every game does with no ill effect) will completely destroy this if you allow it to occur!' kinds of garbage.

These are the kinds of things that aren't constructive, aren't well-thought-out, aren't even thought out on the most basic level, and yet... people end up responding to them at length to either clarify or reassure or just defend themselves from personal attacks piling high (ALL OUTSIDE THE PIT) based on the most absurd nonsense.

That gets in the way of someone making a game purely based on how much time is being wasted dealing with a parade of Chicken Littles and shit-flingers and One True Way-ists in addition to how annoying, frustrating, and discouraging it is. Especially since most of these people would never play there anyway -- so it's not even a matter of 'oh well you'd have to deal with this on a game from the same people, too'. Well, that kind of shit is generally not allowed to go on for pages on end on most games, and that's the case for a very valid reason.

How the same people -- and I'm talking about the communal pool of everyone in the hobby here -- can't internalize 'this would be shitty behavior on a game that would never go on like this without everyone calling it absurd and obnoxious' can think it's perfectly reasonable and not equally absurd and obnoxious here sometimes blows my mind.

We have space for absurd and obnoxious, and it shouldn't be in brainstorming/creation/concept/innovation threads.

Going to mention my long-standing request again: a constructive dedicated dev section for brainstorming and games in development. This isn't the same thing as constructive generally, and I really would like to see it get a home. I genuinely think it would be a net positive for the forum. It'd be useful for startups, idea pitches, and existing games looking at adding new systems they want brainstorming and such for.

I'd really, really like to see this. Add about forty more 'really's there.

I'm not terribly fond of the popularity thing, either, and I've been in the top 3 for like... ever.

That we've had people calculating popularity metrics here and arguing their status based on it, and how people should react to them accordingly, is not something I think is a net positive.

I like the 'avoid the ME TOO' aspect of upvotes.

I wish we had a different metric, which may or may not be possible with nodeBB. I like the more 'agree/disagree/click if this was helpful' sort of setup that I've seen here and there. That feels less about 'cheering people on' or 'telling someone they should be down', and more practical and useful on the whole -- and it's less personal somehow. It's harder to mistake that for 'I just don't fucking like you', or 'I will always cheer on my buds no matter how horrible or wrong the thing they said is', which the more nebulous setup does get co-opted for often enough.

I forget which site has it, but there was one -- it's not a forum so this may be totally unhelpful -- that has a number of things you can check like 'agree, disagree, helpful, funny, sad, happy, gross'/etc. I suspect they get a much better read on things from that data than any of the options we've had. If there's a plugin or feature that could allow for something like that? It'd kick some serious ass, I think.

@ganymede I try to do this now when I see it, for what it's worth, and will sometimes comment with support directly.

I'm more careful with the latter because 'in that bucket of people it's OK to shit on without social consequence' is a thing, which means comments may equal 'oh if that stupid bitch agrees with it it must be wrong omg'.

I have zero qualms with upvotes. I'll upvote people I don't get on with at all when I think they said something valuable, called out bullshit well, or did this or that hard-but-right thing. I'd upvote people three times over for these things if I could.

@ganymede I do believe you -- but like I said, you both participate in discussions I'm not really involved in. For instance, there's only one of the Arx threads I don't have on 'ignore thread' entirely, and even that one I only skim once in a blue if there's nothing else with new stuff -- and I know you're both actively chatty about those subjects individually, so if it happened there? It's gonna be invisible to me as anything in the politics forum is.

The mod voice thing was, actually, the time I remember you stepping in this way. The same folk had complained about the lack of distinction, then about the distinction. You said something. It made a difference. It didn't resolve it, no -- but it did remind the typically more reasonable people in that discussion that the contradiction in what was being demanded wasn't reasonable, and those people did ease down off the throttle.

Resolve? No. But a difference. And it's not an insignificant difference.

Being brutally honest? Some people just want to watch the world burn. Some people just want to wank their grudges. Some people will not see reason, or simply will never give someone who slighted them once a shred of benefit of the doubt ever again.

Nothing I'm talking about is going to change these people, but appeals to the reasonable people -- who I think are the vast majority of posters here -- that they have sometimes swayed into little hate cliques or dogpile teams or commiseration spirals or gossip circles strips support from the truly intractable hate-spewers and bullies.

That isn't a short-term gain broadly, but it is a long game well worth pursuing.

@auspice said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Because I know you know what you're doing. I shouldn't need to tell you to back off, but obviously I have to, so don't make me break out the mallet.

...it depends. (Take a drink!)

I think it's fair to say that tone comes across badly in text sometimes. That's a hurdle. It's a hurdle even for the best writers.

It's not uncommon for things to come across differently than the author intends.

And even then, I do think things get away from people sometimes as part of basic human nature. 'Step back' is the best advice, but when someone is in the moment in which they likely should step back, it's also often enough the very moment in which that advice is the furthest thing from someone's mind because they're so focused on what is going on.

Annnnnnd on top of all of that, a lot of folks assume they know what someone else is doing... and are actually wrong. Happened to me just the other day and I felt bad about it when it was pointed out. I've been on the other side of that one a lot, too.

@lithium I haven't seen it save for once in the previous administration thread, but I'm more than willing to take your word for it. (There are a lot of threads I've opted out of because they aren't stuff I'm into, so this is more than possible!)

@brent Well, reporting 'these people are talking about Arx too much' is dumb. Would you prefer obnoxious? Ill-informed as to what the rules are? Self-absorbed enough to think that they aren't subject to the rules? Entitled enough to think their petty annoyances about any given thing should be rules or should be acted on as though they were?

I could keep going here for a while.

Dumb is a pretty kind assessment of this behavior, considering the many alternatives.

@brent It'd only be that if I was the one who made that report. I'm most assuredly not. I whine about 'omg people not everything is WoD or Arx' out in the open like a sensible person if I can be bothered to care.

@arkandel said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

For instance we've had reports in the past about too many Arx posts in a more generic thread, but being slightly off-topic isn't actionable.

(No, really, that's so dumb a gif is the only appropriate response. )

@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

And frankly -- and this is aimed at surreality -- please don't presume that I don't appreciate, understand, or notice that a few people here get treated like garbage on the regular whereas I can pretty much act like Uncle Ruckus, and folks just look the other way. It does not always come out in my responses, but let me state, for the record, that I understand some people are treated differently.

Here's the thing with that. You have at least four people talking specifically about how they feel they are piled on here or attacked beyond the bounds of what would be tolerated would it happen to someone else, and those four people have an abundance of spine; there are definitely going to be more than four who share that view. Some of them are people I have clashed with personally or don't get along with over the aeons, but I give a shit when hearing they feel like they are no longer welcome to speak or engage here. I can't not empathize with that, and I can't not give a damn.

I know you joke about being a robot. You're not.

I pay attention to it, and, if you don't believe me, talk to Arkandel and Auspice. (Some of y'all may, in fact, remember that I jumped into a thread to point this out in the Hog Pit, and the general consensus was that I "get away" with behaviors that others get shit on for.)

Then point it out when it happens. People out here see it, too. The ones engaging in this behavior clearly don't (or just don't give a fuck while liking to pretend they're somehow righteous or fair or enlightened or whatever else), but they are clearly the ones who need to.

Arkandel asked us as forum participants to call this behavior out when we see it. And mod or not, you are also a forum participant. The old 'with great power comes great responsibility' quote comes to mind here; you are in a unique position to take action by speaking up about these things when you see them occur, which is a responsibility everyone on the forum purportedly shares.

I see a lot of silence on that point.

One post pointing it out -- and I remember the post and heartily agreed with it -- doesn't stop the problem.

Pointing out the instances is what solves the problem. This is the only thing that will spread that awareness.

Months-ago posts don't turn the lightbulb on. "This is an example of what I mean," when it occurs over a short period of time sure as hell does a better job of it, and the concerns you're describing below don't even enter into that at all.

I have seen people scream and rail about sexist comments and insist that internalized sexism is being thrust on them and then turn around and make sexist remarks. I have seen people scream about how inappropriate rape jokes are for pages on end, then make one themselves, and no one dares say boo to them.

This doesn't require mod action.

This requires a voice.

Some of us are not listened to or are further abused if we are that voice. You're not.

So speak up when you see it. Say something. This would make more of an impact than any rule or ban or warning, and I think you know it.

If you are aware of a wrong going down and shrug it off, your silence offers tacit approval of that wrong, and there's a point at which you become complicit.

On the other stuff, I do think something like a temporary cooldown block is not a bad call.

Plenty of otherwise perfectly reasonable people, while heated, go too far. Blocking folks for a day or two to allow them to calm the hell down and recall who they normally are and be themselves when they seem unable to do it for themselves is a step I'm surprised hasn't come into play here yet. This has happened to a number of folks, and I don't exclude myself from this in the least -- it's not a bad idea to consider. This isn't uncommon on games, and it does tend to work to defuse uncharacteristic explosions.

@derp said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

I agree.
So, we're all here good with my taking the mantle of permanent despot, right?

I know you're trying to be cute or whatever, but this is a misuse of logical extremes, which is generally disallowed in reductio ad absurdum as being fallacious.

It's also not particularly helpful, when people are trying to make a genuine appeal for practical and reasonable change, for one of the admins in question to treat the topic so flippantly.

This is why I treated it as something 100% serious.

@Ganymede, if you want a direct example of how differently you are treated than others are here, reflect for a moment on how @Auspice was treated in the previous discussion about administration on the forums when she made a similar remark. People practically demanded her head on a spike, that she be removed from the modcorps, etc.

That difference is noteworthy, and you really should pay it mind. It is not a small matter and you shouldn't treat it as such.

@lithium It's not so much a not reply, it's the 'how dare you vent about something!' that is something I think people need to maybe take a step back and get some perspective about. It's vent space... people are gonna vent.

That particular objection seems designed for nothing more than to bully, silence, and intimidate, and that isn't something I think is healthy.

@lithium said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:

Venting is how some people move through stuff and move on. Without that outlet it's just going to make the explosions when they happen elsewhere be all the more messy.

I agree with this very much.

I also have some concern that we've seen recent instances of a newcomer or someone less 'known' venting without even naming names, and then getting attacked from all sides for daring to vent in vent-space, even when they're venting in a way that isn't insulting or cruel in any way to the person they are venting about.

That is definitely something that has a chilling effect on anything remotely resembling open dialogue, and it is very not cool. I don't think there's much that can be done about it, but I think (the collective) we should be more willing to speak up about this behavior when it happens. Not the mods, but we as a forum community should try to be aware of this and speak up.

@auspice I am down with whoever does it -- provided somebody does it. The 'well we know it's Rick Sanchez again but he hasn't crossed any major lines yet THIS TIME' excuse is worn the heck out. He was calling me a cunt and that wasn't enough of a line cross for his ass to be shown the door, despite that supposedly being verboten across the board for being sexist bullshit. (As in, the rules of the road for even the Pit ban this.)