Posts made by surreality

@thenomain said in Earning stuff:

@surreality said in Earning stuff:

@Thenomain Bluntly, you're entitled to whatever opinion you like

I don't need anybody's permission to have an opinion, but thank you for the acknowledgement.

I have seen too many people get nailed to the wall for not knowing things they had no way of knowing

And I have seen too many people get nailed to the wall for not following the letter of the law, with no help from players, with no help from staff to know what the spirit of the law entails. That is, getting into great detail does not mean that anything you're talking about is going to be avoided.

Here's what you may be missing, in that case. That's the entire point of providing examples and explanations for people who don't know or are unsure why something can be problematic.

We are not talking about something that would be written like the tax code. I don't, and never have, written like that.

The format I was leaning toward had a fairly simple list of one or two sentence policies, in general categories, each with a (?) sort of symbol to offer expanded explanations and examples if someone needed or wanted them. As in, people new to the community, or new to the style of game, who do not know the unspoken community 'rules' and norms and are frequently ostracized for not being aware of them.

This includes informing people of what rights they have as well as what is not permitted, and why in both cases.

I understand that plenty of people think 'don't be a dick' or 'behave like an adult' are enough to cover all of that ground, but I simply do not agree, as definitions of unacceptable behavior and adult behavior vary widely enough that I believe these guidelines are nigh useless.

I also think they have been tried and they haven't worked. In many cases, the reason they haven't worked is because the person doing the unacceptable thing didn't think that constituted 'being a dick', or the person not asking for assistance they should be able to have from staff thought that 'being an adult' meant handling all of their interpersonal conflicts entirely on their own, no matter how unreasonable the circumstance.

The vast majority of players who screw up are not intending to be assholes, and when they do something crappy, it's because they didn't realize: "That's a pretty crappy thing to do, and here's why." I think it's worth spending the words in advance to prevent as many instances of this sort of completely needless conflict among wholly well-intentioned players as possible. That means using words. As it stands, there's no psychic network someone can tune into to download these things into their brain like this is The Matrix; we have to use clunky, old-fashioned words to get these ideas across.

Assholes will still be assholes. Assholes who give none fucks about being assholes can be shown the door. It's the people who have no intention of being assholes, and the people who are not sure what they can do when someone is being an asshole to them, that are worth the effort. And I think they are, because they're there to have fun, and it is not at all fun when someone's an asshole to you, but it is also not fun to realize that you have -- without ever intending to -- been a total asshole to someone else. Most people feel pretty bad when they realize they've done that, actually, and those people are worth the time and effort, and their feelings matter, too.

I don't know why I'm getting this negative focus from you, but I would appreciate you backing off a bit please. Thanks.

Well, dude. You called me overbearing, and suggested I'd be assaulting you as a 'problem player' purely based on the amount of words I tend to use with no regard whatsoever to what those words are. With that opener, I can't really say this exchange began on something that wasn't a personal attack and an assumption of persecution from the jump.

That was enough to get me to stop considering dev as viable, not just for the time being, but probably for good, and odds are good I won't likely be around much going forward. It was a last straw. That's why you're getting negativity in return, and you're an intelligent enough person to comprehend that.

@arkandel If I had $20 to spare, you can damned well bet it would have been before I finished typing this.

ETA: Also, cat videos. Don't forget the cat videos.

@arkandel But how dare they render that chart in cuddly Easter pastels in order to conceal the depths of its horror from an innocent child's glance, inviting inquiry and exploration as if such is safe, sir, how dare they, indeed?!

@faraday I agree that we are far afield of the point.

I am keen on bullet points with additional access to an explanation if someone wants one or doesn't understand what's being talked about or why it's a problem, but that's neither here nor there anyway, because it's not the direct example I provided that would suffice to prevent 'unspoken rules' from becoming an issue.

I was also posting fast before having to jump out the door with a quick list of examples because I had about thirty seconds to type. And, for that, I got insulted and told someone knows me better than I know myself, and that doing so somehow doesn't involve any assumptions whatsoever on their part.

@Thenomain Bluntly, you're entitled to whatever opinion you like about how I'm overbearing by adhering to the belief that this hobby has too many unspoken conventions that should instead be made available to newcomers as clearly as possible as a resource. Ascribe any negative traits you like to that perspective; you're not going to change it.

I have seen too many people get nailed to the wall for not knowing things they had no way of knowing, and that are not at all intuitive, or may be the precise opposite of another type of text-based game community (IRC, MUD, RPI, etc.). These standards and cultural norms can be radically different amongst games in the same community and codebase.

Some of these people don't come back after this, and I don't blame them.

Some people will think they can do whatever they like unless something says they cannot. The reverse is also true and is what is relevant here: some people will think they cannot do something until someone says they are welcome to do so, and should feel comfortable doing so.

This is not creating a checklist of 'you may only speak to staff about X, Y, and Z, but never A, B, or Q' spoken down the nose with the use of the royal 'we' and the according imperious tone. This is assuring people that, yes, you can talk to us about these things, and if you have any sort of issue, please do.

The games I started out on? You didn't bring interpersonal problems -- harassment, stalking, creeping, etc. -- to staff. The only things staff would listen to and/or do anything about involved broken code, cheating via code, or questions about game mechanics/"what command do I use to... " If you had a personal issue with another player, your options were to handle it yourself or walk, because if you brought it to staff, you were the problem and you were wasting staff's time because 'that isn't what we're here for'.

Someone coming from that sort of environment -- read: someone new to the more common practices in this one -- is not necessarily going to know that if they're being harassed, or stalked, or having verbal abuse hurled at them by another player, they can approach staff for help, because the environment from which they've come did not offer that kind of support whatsoever.

Deadpool 2 is worth seeing if you enjoyed the previous one. (It is definitely not for everyone.)

I didn't find it to be as unexpectedly endearing as the first, but it had some great callbacks to the previous film and it held its own. The end bits in the first credit break are well worth waiting for.

The sad thing about this particular franchise is that I don't know how it will fare over time, considering the number of pop culture references. It's likely destined to be the Aladdin of the Marvel Universe in that respect.

@derp You weren't the only one told to check your reading comprehension, as well. After a laundry list of things that weren't in evidence were cited, to boot. (Irony remains a thing.)

"You didn't read it the same way I did." != "You can't read."

@Thenomain I think you're making a lot of assumptions here.

Beyond that, I think you're forgetting the 'some people are new' problem.

Someone new to the hobby may genuinely not know that they can approach staff with anything that involves harassment/stalking/creepy pages/etc., and only with questions about the mechanics of the game and how the game works. Plenty of game communities function in precisely that way -- including some of the ones I started out on. Someone cheating the code? Report OK! Someone harassing you with racial slurs and creepy come-ons every time you log in? "Sorry, we don't get involved in that."

So you can call it 'too fine grained' that I think it's worthwhile to tell people: "Hey, if you have a problem with somebody, whether it has to do with the game system or not, you can come to staff about it" is overbearing, but then I guess it's just a good thing I gave up dev, then, huh?

@thenomain Having nothing but a black hole when it comes to the most frequent issues doesn't inspire confidence in players (who should be able to see this rule information also) or give them any idea of how things will be handled, or what is even appropriate to approach staff about.

People need to know what they can report.
People need to know what they can ask for.
People need to know what they have to ask for if they want it.
People need to know what's off the table, period.
People need to know how their problems or questions will be handled.

Sure, some people will try to game that. That in itself isn't outside the scope of something that can be written down, like the classic: "If we have to make a rule based on something incredibly awful that (generic) you did, it doesn't just apply to those that come after you, 'cause (generic) you done fucked up hard."

@thenomain said in Earning stuff:

What actions lead to what rewards are both set down by news files and the unwritten rules implied by the actions of staff.

Another thing we should do is endeavor to write the rules down, not leave them unwritten. Especially when it comes to what is expected from staff.

@ganymede 'run for the hills' wasn't magee's phrasing. 'Maybe it's that to you, but it helps me' is the actual antithesis of a 'one true wayist' attitude. There's no implication or accusation of laziness or stupidity being aimed at Cobalt whatsoever. There's no suggestion that it's the only way to learn at all, or that she doesn't understand the game or the rules.

The whole attitude was dismissive and condescending from the jump. 'Oh, sigh, that is a pile of garbage.' It's certainly not constructive, but the untouchables are freely permitted that, I suppose.

Is it intimidating and off-putting to some? Yep. Is it helpful to some? Yep.

Only one person here is making a personal attack, and it's one there's no reasonable basis to make, because the newer poster here never makes the claim or implication that there's any 'one true way'.

The closest thing to it is noting that if someone is intimidated or put off by the chart, it may not be a game they will enjoy, because ultimately it gets a lot more complicated than that, and that's not an unreasonable observation. That's not insulting to anyone. That's not making any claim they're too dumb to understand or learn it. That's a basic awareness that some people just don't like games with complicated systems, and even if there are things one can dabble in in the game that are not very complex as a new player, let's not pretend the game isn't ultimately quite complex with many conditionals to be kept in mind. It's perfectly fine for someone to not enjoy a game like that, and mage is definitely a game like that.

@magee101 said in Helpful Spellcasting Flowchart:

@cobaltasaurus maybe it sends gou running for the hills. For me this is a godsend.

@cobaltasaurus said in Helpful Spellcasting Flowchart:

@magee101 It doesn't send me running for the hills. I know how to the rules for casting in mage. I have had multiple people comment to me that looking at that image has completely turned them off of playing mage. @Sparks Is a good example of people turned off on mage. "This is too complicated, I'm going back to D&D." (Paraphrasing here.)

I'm glad it helps you, but it doesn't help everyone and it actively turns off some people.

@magee101 said in Helpful Spellcasting Flowchart:

@cobaltasaurus the book does that too. Yoi know how long it took for me to sit down and say ok lets do it! Mage is a game that is going to take effort to play. If that silly picture turns them off, they might not have really enjoyed mage anyways

@cobaltasaurus said in Helpful Spellcasting Flowchart:

@magee101 Okay, sure. You're way of playing and learning is the One True Way, got it.

This is what I'm seeing, Gany.

Nowhere am I seeing Magee claiming a 'one true way', only that this chart is helpful to them and that they appreciate having it available, whether the chart is ideal or not.

The leap to catty bullshit is not on Magee here. Check your sacred cow bias.

@jibberthehut In this case, the mom was screaming so much abuse in my face I was seriously ready to call the police since she refused to leave my property and kept trying to push her way through the door and into the house, until...

...be shocked: her husband is a local police officer. She was very pleased to mention how much trouble she could invent to get me in for my timid-as-a-rabbit mother quietly asking the mothers to please stop the scream tag games on the lawn (which they actually aren't supposed to be on anyway) at the asscrack of dawn, and kept screaming threats and to expect the police at my door with handcuffs by the time she got down the street to her house -- yelling so loudly she woke the rest of the neighbors. (Cross street? Mostly young families. My street and the rest of them? All retirees who are not up at that hour, and are very unsettled by such antics. They're used to this neighborhood being nice and quiet, not a Jerry Springer set.)

@faraday FS3's learning curve was a little slow for me, but I'm not into the free-for-all 'do whatever' from things like TR, either.

I'm with you on the 'sometimes you need to pick up something quick' skills, definitely, and I do think FS3 accounts for this. Some systems cut that off entirely, as in... 'what you built is what you've got and it's never going to change even a little'.

I'm also wary of anything that'd put someone in a coded position of 'by the time you learn to fire that gun you would be shot dead twenty times over'. For instance, if the system requires that the very basics of learning to fire a gun at a novice level take longer than the entire length of basic training for a branch of the US military (in which someone learns that and a whole bunch else), there's probably a problem.

@Jennkryst has been asking for years, and it'd be really nice to see her get a chance to give it a shot if that is on the table. It may work out, it may not, but dang near everything else has at least been tried at some point to find out one way or the other.

@jibberthehut Your flag asshole reminds me of a horrid wretch of a neighbor we had a handful of years ago. (They moved a few years ago, I hope you didn't inherit them.)

My house is on a corner. This means it's automatically nominated as the school bus stop. For nearly twenty years we've been patient as hell with this, despite no small amount of property damage over the years.

I worked through the night and would sleep around 6am, and often had to be back up by 10am at the time. (If I am very lucky I could snag a 2 hour nap somewhere else during the day, but working from home gets much less flexible when you're working with people all over the dang planet with much less flexible hours due to kids or a second job.)

For two weeks, the 'fun new game while waiting for the bus' -- approximately 7-7:30am -- was 'scream tag'. As in, run all over my property, and if someone touches you, scream like you are being murdered. Right under the bedroom window. I already sleep in earplugs, people, and if something wakes me up, I'm up, because apparently life hates me.

We are evolutionarily fucking hard-wired to respond to the sound of a child's scream; it's part of our survival instinct sampler pack. (A vulnerable member of the tribe is in danger! Fetch your spear, and murder the hungry bear!) This was consistently loud enough to wake my folks in the next house down, also. Our houses are brick and stone and there's plenty of space between everything. We are not talking flimsy drywall or townhouses here.

After two weeks waking up in a dead panic because it sounded like people were murdering children on my lawn, I called my mother to please mention the noise to the mothers outside watching over this escapade as she was heading out to work (and driving right by there) while I got dressed and tried to not look like some extra from The Walking Dead.

My mother may be the person who taught me snark and how to swear, but when it comes to 'anyone outside the family', she is one of the most horrifyingly timid and polite human beings to walk the earth. There is no way she reasonably caused the frenzy of screaming and threats and accusations that blasted through my door when I finally got dressed and got down to it. (Every ridiculous thing from 'your work schedule is unacceptable' to 'I will call the cops on you for making observations of my children without my permission' because apparently waking up to the sound of a scream and rolling over with a pillow on top of your head for two weeks without so much as glancing out the window is stalking someone's children, and all manner of over the top insanity.)

I didn't hesitate. I sent an email to the school district the moment I got back into the house. They apparently confirmed the 'scream tag' game with the bus driver, and hostile behaviors from two of the parents had been mentioned previously, and the district called me within two hours. The neighbors all had a phone call by the end of the day that the bus stop would be moving up over a block (to one of their yards).

Amazing how that shit was never tolerated on their own property.

Needless to say, if there's someone you can mention this issue to, it may help.

@arkandel said in Earning stuff:

Earning things depends on observable contributions.

And the list of examples is a list of those things for exactly this reason.

I can't speak for the hypothetical game designer that only wants to see novellas of purple prose in 20+ person scenes in which someone must strictly adhere to pose order or be thrown in the penalty box, because I'm not that game designer. I can't speak for the hypothetical game designer who wants to use +vote systems, or the hypothetical game designer that feels only running plots and events is worthy of reward of some kind, because I'm not them, either.

You could hypothetically decide that you're going to hand 1XP out every time someone complimented staff, or insults a rival game, or TSes a staffer or staff favorite. You could decide you're going to give out IC status based on the number of notches on someone's virtual bedpost, or how many rooms they include in their build down to every bathroom and broom closet. You could dock XP every time someone complains, or has to leave an event before it is officially over because they have to go to work and the scene ran long. If that's how hypothetical you wanna roll, you do you -- and you'll see precisely how well those things work.

Ultimately, I place 'earned' above 'you get it just for being there and whatever you do or don't do doesn't make much if any difference' -- whether this is because some people do all the work and everybody gets the same amount in catchup to keep pace, or advancement is very slow or nil -- because for many, that advancement is part of the story. 'Everybody gets everything' doesn't accomplish this as it requires no story or action for this evolution to occur. 'Nobody gets enough to evolve through advancement' can hamstring things a bit too much and can readily get in the way of these story arcs. How people can assign these benefits and under which circumstances is relevant, but also somewhat outside the scope of this discussion.

It depends entirely on how you define 'benefits'.

Is being able to participate in events, or have scenes run for a specific need (by staff, by fellow players, by either) a benefit? What about participating in non-GM'd RP? (A game designed more along the lines of online tabletop may not allow this, or allow this to 'count' for anything. Similarly, a game that is heavily coded may not allow completely realistic and reasonable events to unfold if there's no code to support it.)

I don't consider the above 'benefits'; I consider the ability to tell stories with others -- as GM, without a GM amongst players with understood parameters (adherence to policy and the system and the game reality of the setting), or GMed by either staff or players as either is willing or able -- the point of being somewhere in the first place.

If I have to jump through extraordinary hoops to accomplish these things, I wouldn't play there. Nor would I set up a game to run in this way, because that would just be creating more bureaucrazy and overhead that I have to maintain and support as a staffer. I'm not opposed to simple requirements: putting in a basic +request, or potentially using a simple system of resource allocation that prevents a small handful of people from overwhelming the resources of the game to provide for all players (staff time, GM time, etc.).

When it comes to individual character advancement, I am very biased in favor of 'earned', to the extent that the 'just handed out' portion I've considered implementing remains consistent and has a 'catch up' metric to not benefit early adopters to the detriment of new arrivals, but it's such a small amount it's fairly inconsequential. Key to this is providing a wide variety of means to earn XP/CP/points/whatever you're working with. This is because different players have different strengths, and ultimately I believe in rewarding the player's contribution to the game (as a community) as much as anything any given character has learned or accomplished.

This means you can do what Apos describes quite well: reward the behavior you want to encourage, whatever those behaviors may be. It may be volunteering to help newbies at certain times, it may be running plots, it may be creating on-grid businesses, it may be creating new items in character, writing up specs for items/magic/rosters/what-have-you for the game on the whole to benefit from out of character, going for the compromise rather than the kill, taking a loss... the list is practically endless. You can cap this if you need to, but I'm not personally inclined to low or universal caps for a variety of reasons.

@haven Thank you. I understand the need for levity, but the signal to noise ratio in this thread really does seem to be better served with a minimum of gifs and snarky shitposts. Once in a while, serious thread should probably stay fairly serious.

@haven Please don't with that stuff in this thread?