Posts made by Wizz

Fairest are the Faces. Ogres are the Muscle. Darklings are the Sneaks. Wizened are the Crafters. They have roles they slot into just fine, you just have more options for mechanical refinement, which again, I wasn't arguing. You originally said:

I like playing nChangeling because it offers a low-power campaign type that I miss, where what you are messes up what you want to do. Vampires are Vampires. Werewolves are Werewolves, Mages are Mages. These are their job descriptions. Changelings are baristas and taxi drivers and lost mothers and have to decide, themselves, what they are. Are they monsters? Are they heroes? To me, a ton more interesting than another revisiting of Victorians telling us what we are and who we can be. That's just me, mind.

That's what I disagreed with. We wandered off into a few tangents, haha, but what originally inspired my comment was the idea that Werewolves are Werewolves, that that is who they are as characters. I still maintain that won't be the case in 2.0, but proof'll be in the pudding.

@Thenomain said:

What? No it doesn't. First: Raising your Clarity in Changeling is moving away from the unusual and strange.

Secondly, your Wyrd can't fall unless you do so intentionally, outlined in the very last seasonal book: Equinox Road. (There were three books after it, but ER was the last planned one.)

I know Clarity is moving away, and lowering your Wyrd is intentional. I was probably just assuming the two were linked, but I could have sworn it mentioned lowering Wyrd in the core book... I am too lazy to actually look for it though, so whatevs.

The Storyteller system is supposed to be a toolbox.

I have never seen the core rules used as a toolbox. As these are the jumping-off points of all major templates in the Storytelling System (yay, I get to know something! 'storyteller' was oWoD), I'm going to assume that the writers were blowing smoke.

And you're free to do so, but it's still something they mention in literally every core book. Probably the splats as well. Toolbox is their term, not mine. Whether or not people actually use them as such is kind of irrelevant to me because that's the point. You can play them out of the box or break them down into itty bitty pieces and they encourage you to tackle it either way.

There was a point to this not having specifically to do with Changeling, but I can't remember what it was.

The original discussion was whether or not you're given as many options for play in Werewolf 2.whatevs as in nChangeling (there aren't, due to Kiths and Seemings and Entitlements and so on) and you feeling like Werewolves are more restricted and defined as characters, which I disagreed with. But like most of these types of discussions it's all a bit waffly.

edit: Interestingly, I have a personal rule when judging scenes: What I remember or think is interesting is the rule at the moment. If you have a problem with that you can tell me once, and I will make a decision and then the scene will move on. I am not a fan of all-or-nothing consistency because it's nearly impossible to attain. but I more than understand the reasoning behind it.
I am all for breaking rules as long as it fits the requirements of "it's internally consistent to the game" and "it's interesting for those involved". (Notice I didn't say fun. Fun is what we want before our tastes become more nuanced. Engaged, interested, those are the classifications of "fun" that I want.)

+1

@Thenomain said:

@Wizz said:

So how is that really different from nChangeling, where True Fae/Privateers and Clarity loss can and do interrupt your barrista's every day life and drag them back into the weirdness?

Werewolf v2's is codified; you cannot escape it any more than you can escape not having a "Cast Fireball" ability as a thief in D&D. It's encoded as what your character is.

Changeling's is a decision of the GM or the players based upon what part of the setting they want to engage. You're not penalized—in fact, you're rewarded—for not engaging in the weirdness. This should tell the GM: All Weirdness, All the Time, but it's a decision of the table, not of the game.

...What? WoD books, all of them, lay out the setting as written and then tell you "go nuts, take this or leave that." It's not specific to Changeling. The Storyteller system is supposed to be a toolbox.

And aren't you penalized? Not doing Changeling stuff and raising Clarity means your Wyrd falls and keeps falling, IIRC.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you here?

And I'm not going to argue at all against the idea that Changeling has been and probably will always be kind of a mess, haha. For the record, I absolutely love both games and think you can get just as much out of either one without stretching at all.

So how is that really different from nChangeling, where True Fae/Privateers and Clarity loss can and do interrupt your barrista's every day life and drag them back into the weirdness?

And yes, it is meant to be harder. But, it no longer takes away the option to fight. Just being a werewolf and doing werewolf things are breaking points towards Spirit, yeah, but you can play a low-Renown, high-Harmony dude who goes out into the woods once a month to run around in wolf skin. There's nothing forcing you to participate in Uratha society other than mutual protection and strength, which is really the same idea behind Freeholds and Courts, right?

@Thenomain said:

(Pulling this over from an advertising thread that is, really, about classic Changeling. As you can see in a moment, this isn't.)

@Wizz said:

@Thenomain said:

I like playing nChangeling because it offers a low-power campaign type that I miss, where what you are messes up what you want to do. Vampires are Vampires. Werewolves are Werewolves, Mages are Mages. These are their job descriptions.

Just as an aside, this is definitely true of oMage/Vamp/Werewolf, but nWerewolf-- to me, when it's played well-- definitely dials back on "I am noble monster, I fight evil" and is more "regular dude/dudette who has some bizarre part-time obligations, struggles to find a normal place in society against new and unfamiliar instincts" as well.

Really, they all have exactly as much depth as you give them.

That is interesting (honestly interesting, as the kind that makes me want to respond), considering that in another thread someone (@Coin) said that in nWerewolf, you were either doing the things that Renown demands or you aren't playing Werewolf.

I think that's more true than what you state. You can play someone who is Joe Blow, Sudden Werewolf. You can even play in a troupe with the same goal, just like you can play a Changeling chronicle about storming the gates of Arcadia, but I don't see these games being about this. It's an option, not the thrust.

But that's my point exactly. In Werewolf 2.0, the Wolf Must Hunt. Yep. Werewolves are much more driven than other supes. But something I think has been overlooked in these discussions is the new Harmony mechanic, which is very different from other morality sliders in that it's actually of most benefit to you when you're in the middle-- Harmony 5 or 6, which represents living in both worlds (High Harmony meaning you are too human and have issues changing shape, entering the Shadow, etc. while low Harmony means you are too spirit-like and pick up taboos, get trapped in the Shadow, are penalized for interacting with people, etc.). You are actually encouraged to be Joe Blow.

So yeah, a lot of your life revolves around the Hunt; the Pure raze your brother's bar, your brother declares Siskur Dah and your pack disappears for a week into an alien realm to seek vengeance. But then you come back, and your neighbors don't look you in the eye anymore and you suddenly just want to rip some arms off on the subway. So you do human shit-- spend time at a ball game, hang out with your old school buddies, go dancing-- and the edge comes back off. You have to be a normal dude sometimes, or you become a monster.

Both things are now, mechanically and socially, playing Werewolf.

@Miss-Demeanor
The social penalties thing is actually changing in 2.0. But we'll continue the discussion in the other thread.

@Arkandel
With Renown moving to front and center in 2.0, I get your frustration, but it's such a huge mechanic now that I gotta agree with @Coin. It just doesn't make any sense for players to be able to write it off. This probably means that playing a wolf inherently requires more investment and thus it might be the smaller, less popular sphere, but on the other hand that investment is a huge draw for players like me, even if it means my own progress might be relatively "slower" than other players'. Maybe it's a matter of deciding how much that specifically actually matters to your own sense of enjoyment.

@Thenomain said:

I like playing nChangeling because it offers a low-power campaign type that I miss, where what you are messes up what you want to do. Vampires are Vampires. Werewolves are Werewolves, Mages are Mages. These are their job descriptions.

Just as an aside, this is definitely true of oMage/Vamp/Werewolf, but nWerewolf-- to me, when it's played well-- definitely dials back on "I am noble monster, I fight evil" and is more "regular dude/dudette who has some bizarre part-time obligations, struggles to find a normal place in society against new and unfamiliar instincts" as well.

Really, they all have exactly as much depth as you give them.

OP hasn't mentioned the mechanics behind gaining renown to a great degree, but a lot of the mechanical changes to having renown are pretty damn cool. Werewolves can inflict conditions on people like vampires, and also flare their power like mages. I'm pretty excited for it and genuinely torn as to whether I want to make a Demon or a Werewolf first.

@Arkandel
It's easy drama.

It feels silly to be hurt that some buddies made other plans for my bday at 28 years old, but still.

My internet at home is being extremely wonkly-bonk, so Steam hasn't been working like it should. But would anyone who has L4D2 like to plan for some zombie-stabbing later this week?

Sweeeeeeet. Thanks!

I vaguely remember a link or two to some decent universal browser-based MU* clients but I've dug through my bookmarks and history on two machines and can't find anything. Was this just some wild fever dream?

Yeah, I'd think I'd like to avoid full-on Rifts. Transdimensional TMNT seems nutty enough, and the cgen and systems are broken but still somewhat accessible.

@Eerie said:

What if there is no waiting list for the super sphere they’re in, for example? What if they’re contributing to a pack or a coterie while not denying anyone else a chance to have fun, and their having to suddenly dump their character is not going to benefit anyone else and will, in fact, just detract from the fun of the people they’re currently playing with?

But isn't that also kind of a shortcut around any sort of alt cap at all? Put your name on one list, play well and get along with others in the other sphere, and boom, you've got two supes. Maybe it's the long way around and maybe not everyone could pull it off as easily as I make it sound, but it still doesn't seem very fair especially since Suzie didn't have to app into another sphere as a Sup while waiting. She could have played a ghoul or stigmatic or vanilla mortal, but she chose to play a vampire, just like any new player hypothetically makes their one choice.

@Thenomain said:

That is, someone with a supernatural slot, someone who is engaged and helping the game but would rather take a different supernatural slot, would be at a disadvantage. This is something to consider while fussing around with ideas.

If your game only allows one Sup and you really want a specific sphere...don't app into another sphere with a Sup? It seems more like the person who takes up a slot elsewhere and then expects to be able to keep both has the unfair advantage.

Also-unrelated-to-child-neglect peeve:

Grown-ass men with no medical issues who don't throw their weight into a big move, but "sneakily" limit themselves to the small boxes. Come on now.
I am so sore.

@Thenomain said:

A friend of mine is a very good father, yet his tween-aged child still took an entire bottle of medication.

Well, I mean, was he just standing there picking his nose while his kid downed the bottle? Probably not, right? There is a difference between "crazy things kids do" and "gross negligence," especially when we're talking older kids with more independent time. I wasn't trying to imply that nothing bad ever ever happens to good parents, I mean I've seen people just literally be shit people, in public, and their kids pay for it. So I was appreciating the efforts of strangers.

@mietze
Seriously, mad props for that. Working...let's say too many service industry jobs over the years, I've seen shit parenting like that that would turn your hair white, like literally left my mouth agape, and as a dad myself I just do not fucking understand. There's got to be a fine or something.