Posts made by ZombieGenesis

And don't get me wrong, I'm not dumping on M&M. I really enjoy M&M. My TT group uses it for our DC comics campaign and used it regularly until we found Supers RED. I'm not even saying that it shouldn't or can't be used to run a game. I'm just sharing my experiences from running a game using M&M in the past.

1: Some people won't play there for various reasons because you're using a system/because you're using M&M.
2: I would set 1 PL and have all characters make characters at that PL. Or have very defined guidelines for what types of characters fit into what PL.
3: Be prepared to have to really help people understand that they should have both offensive and defensive stats that equal X. Here you start getting into equations and some people are going to tune right out. On my game, I had a command that broke these things down as best as we could.
4: If you're using 3E be prepared for people who do not like how Impervious works. Also, some people really dislike the utility power Affliction. There will be debates about it.
5: Be ready to fully enforce a PL offset rule. Otherwise, certain players will sink one side of a PL equation to completely make the other side OP. Tanking Dodge to create an OP Toughness for instance.
6: Even if you try to account for everything(and that's really just not possible) the system can still be broken by people who are familiar enough with it. The idea of Power Levels is good in theory but I've found that, in practice, it's not as solid a mechanic as I'd like it to be.

I've run a number of M&M MUs over the years(in every edition since first) and in my experience people will app for whatever limit you let them. I tried running a game that allowed for PLs 10-12 and almost no one apped for PL 10 or 11. It was all PL 12 even if their actual concept spoke to a PL 10 character. No one wanted to be "left behind" or "weak".

My main issue with M&M is the same with any system really, it has buy in that will be tough to get players to wrap their heads around. There really isn't 1 PL, there are multiple PLs. In the simplest terms there is PL. But then there's Offensive and Defensive PL. Then you can break it down by attack and specific defense. A character is really only PL X if they have an Offense and Defense at PL X. It can be hard to balance that. GR has done a good job of making things easier with the newest player's handbook though.

@Kaedric What's that? We've covered a lot of ground in this thread. LOL

@fatefan I remember that game. I'd play on it as much as I'm able to play on any game(1-3 times a week for a few hours a night). I think it could be good action-y fun.

I've been jonesing for a Thundarr or He-man style game for years. I almost did one using FATE Accelerated but it did not go well with my test group who could not wrap their heads around the narrative focus of the system.

I don't know that there's been a pure GI Joe MU but there is Transformers Universe MUX that has both GI Joe and Transformers.

@Ghost I think you're absolutely correct. Take this OC superhero game some people are talking about. If he decides to go with System A then there will be X number of people who will play there and give the system a shot even if they aren't familiar with it, there will be Y number of people who play there because he chose System A, and there will be Z number of people who will opt not to play there for the same reason. There will also be a general expectation that if he uses System A than all of the various bits and pieces are supported in some way via code. Choosing to use an RPG system for your game is a huge decision and it's just the first one. Choosing what system to use is just as huge a decision.

Conversely, if you decide to use a "narrative trait" system there will be some people who opt not to play there for that reason. Or they may check you out to see how much information you require for an application. I know many people who are tired of the "write a thesis about the character you want to play" style of apps and who will not play on games that use that type of a system anymore (I'm one of them). So deciding NOT to use an RPG system will obviously also have consequences.

The only thing you can do as a game runner is making the game you want to play at with the system you enjoy and will be able to support and teach.

I don't think anyone said anything about handwaving any part of the system. In fact, the use of judge notes was specifically mentioned. I can't speak for the Ares plugin but for the Clone Wars game we used jnotes and a simple "gear display" to show what players had because, largely, gear stats did not change from player to player. A heavy blaster pistol is a heavy blaster pistol. We didn't think there was a need for each player to display their own version of the weapon. Any mods could be noted in a jnote when they happened. People wanted more than that, however. We understood and implemented the system. It had nothing to do with "handwaving" equipment away.

Edited to say instead: I don't think either of the SW games had any intention of not treating gear with the respect it deserves in their respective systems. It's just that, to varying degrees depending on the system, gear stats don't change and are consistent from one player to another. It's not like PC sheets which will be wildly different. On my Clone Wars game someone could use the +roll system to do a to-hit roll and then roll the 2d8 or whatever for damage because they knew that's what a heavy blaster did for damage. There was no need to consult a +gear readout. We opted out of having such readouts in the beginning because we felt the work to payoff ratio was not high enough. I could put my coding time elsewhere. In the end, players very much wanted that system, however, complete with compiled to-hit numbers, multi-attack options, and the whole shebang. It was a really neat and slick system when it was finally done. I hate that i lost it to a HD crash a few years ago. Anyway, that's all I was saying in regards to gear and my game.

I think this discussion has taken a weird turn where we seem to be talking about whether there are two factions of MUers? One who require RPGs and stats and those who do not? I could be wrong but that's how it's reading to me.

The actual initial statement in regards to the FFG plugin for Ares and my subsequent experience with Star Wars D20 wasn't that people needed a system it's that if you're going to use that system then people expect you to use all of that system, not just part of it. With the FFG plugin there is no gear plugin, which is why the people I know who were thinking of doing a Star Wars Ares game decided against using that plugin. With my Saga game, people came expecting that the Saga system would be fully represented and all I had was a basic +sheet and a +roll command. Which people would have still been fine with I think if push came to shove but there was still an overwhelming desire to see the rest of the system done out for them to enjoy.

I don't think in either situation it came down to these players would have only played at a game that used an RPG system. With my game I think almost all the players would have played on any well made Clone Wars game. It's just that since we were using a system they wanted ALL of the system represented if for no other reason than to see their shiny toys displayed in a +gear command.

As I've said, when I opened Clone Wars there was an immediate and overwhelming request for a gear and starship system. Just judge noting stuff wasn't enough. People wanted to be able to type +weapons or +stats/ship and see their stuff. We(staff) were afraid that the game would just turn into a tabletop simulator with things starting to go "I swing my lightsaber at you..." +roll but nothing like that happened. People were giddy to see their stuff but I noted no real increase in the use of the +roll system. People just RPed their shit as normal.

I'm currently in love with Supers! Revised Edition. It's simple, fast-paced, and really easy to scale things with.

One thing I learned running Clone Wars MUX(which ran on TinyMUX and used the D20 Saga rules) was that people like seeing their gear. It's like an extension of their character. I think the thought is "If we're gonna use X system why aren't we using ALL of that system?" I initially had no intention of having gear or sheets for starships but ended up adding them due to incredibly popular demand. We did not see an increase in the +roll system at all after we added it. As I said, I think people just like seeing their gear/armor/weapons/ship stats.

@ghost I think I would play the crap out of that.

@Staricide When we were setting up our design goals for that 80s horror MU we touched on almost everything you mentioned above.

1a) Peak time being outside of YOUR peak time. That's one of the reasons we went with Ares. It has a fantastic scene system that allows you to create a scene and pose at your leisure either on the game or from the web. Our beta test group is from all over the U.S. so when us folk in the E.T. are ready to RP the people over in California are generally still at work. So this allows us to "poke away" at scenes over the course of a day or two if we need to. You can also seamlessly transition from web, to game, back to web as needed using the scene system. It's really fantastic.

1b) Ares also gives a ton of features that allows you to stay connected to the game even when you can't be connected through an MU client. Through the web portal you have access to MU channels, mail, PMs, and jobs. For me it allows me to keep up with stuff during breaks at work and what not.

2A) One of my own issues with getting into new games is breaking through the "clique barrier" or slipping into RP with characters who already have a reason to be tight with one another. Now, I don't use clique in a negative term. It's natural for bonds to form between players and characters that have been on the game longer than you have. It can be frustrating, however, trying to find a way to ingratiate your character without feeling like you're horning in. As staff we felt it as our duty to create organic methods for new players to slip right in with established players.

A: We opted for a small/medium sized town for our setting. This gives everyone a chance to know everyone else or to have coincidental meetings that don't seem forced.
B: We are creating a lot of RP hubs that will encourage certain themes/character concepts(hospitals, PD, fire department, a high school) and locations for players to live and be immediate neighbors with other players(themed neighborhoods, apartment complexes, cul-de-sacs, etc).
RP Hooks. All characters are required to list a number of RP hooks that other players can see and maybe use as inspiration for a character or find out how their character may be able to interact with other characters.

3A) As for non-small talk scene access, we're hoping that the above points will help give people tools to naturally break that barrier. We're also a semi-sandbox game so if you have an idea(or see an idea posted on the forums) for a plot, have a few people who want to play that plot, then we give you the tools to run and manage that plot as you see fit(within reason of course).

Anyway, those are the design goals we used to combat the points you made above. Any other ideas of what we(or anyone who is creating a game) could do to help ease new players into an established game?

@faraday I could not agree more. In my eyes the only real failure I've had in a long time if H&V and I've explained why that failed. For the other games I spin up, most last 3-6 months and I have a blast on them. I have no regrets about the "micro-games" I bring up and eventually shut down. That said, the 80s horror game that I've been playing on with those 3-5 people is so much fun that we're actually working on fleshing it out, stabilizing it, and hopefully opening it.

@Ganymede I love collaborating and I've done so with several people on this board on games that I think have gone on to be quite successful! I'd love to work with you sometime to when we get a chance. If you ever have ideas or want to discuss things feel free to PM me.

So I guess to touch on a few things...

First, I didn't make this thread to give me ideas of what to open. I was just curious about what the community had an interest in due to the kind of unexpected excitement surrounding the Stargate post. I also may make posts like "Hey, what do people think of X, Y, or Z" out of sheer boredom or something. Not necessarily because I'm trolling for new game concepts myself.

Second, I won't lie..I spin up a ton of games. I'm lucky in that I have 3 or 5 people who love to RP many and varied things, most of which don't currently exist in the MU sphere. I'm also fortunate enough to be able to code the support systems necessary to play such games in a reasonable manner that isn't just play-by-post format. I may post about those games here, invite people over, and then when people ask why said game got shuttered it likely does result in "well, interest was lost in it so I closed the doors". I may not say it but a large part of that is those core 5 people or so have moved on and if there isn't enough spaghetti to stick to the wall then, yeah, I just close up the game. I'll probably always be that guy who has a few pokers in the fire.

Third, sometimes I fail. Heroes and VIllains MUX died largely because my life fell apart at the beginning of the year. It didn't get the attention it deserved from me even if people like Auspice and several others put in a fuck ton of effort on their parts to keep it afloat. The game closing largely comes down on my shoulders. Again, sometimes I fail.

In this instance, however, this isn't a thread about me looking for new ideas(I'm still rebuilding H&V and I'm working with some folk on an 80s horror MUX) but more a thread to explore ideas and sate my own curiosity.

I think you are right though, the theme/setting/IP isn't everything. It is something though and can be a huge part of that initial draw. Once you get past that initial draw, however, you do need to have a secure infrastructure in place and a clear idea of what the game is and how to sustain it.

I've tried a few times to get an OC game going and they never go anywhere. I've done a trait-based game and I've brought Empire Bay up multiple times and we get maybe one or two regulars. Even running regular scenes didn't help. Though that's another thing that bites my butt about people who say "we need more scenes run!" and then never show up but that's for another thred.

We have a blast with SW: Rifts in my TT group. We mix in the superpowers companion and I played a Superman clone in a group with a dragon, combat cyborg, and ley line walker and it was a blast.

@faraday No joke, I staff on a game that is in beta and we have players who have never MU'd before but play on this game for two simple reasons: 1) the scene system that lets them do scenes via the web as well as on the game and 2) the online c-gen. The people I've spoken to love the fact that they can "slow burn" a scene via the web. They've also said that it's just much easier to create a character via the web than using MU based commands. So it may not be a dealbreaker for everyone but, from my experience with this game, it's certainly a method of bringing in players who may not play otherwise.

When we were thinking about using it we were planning on using the skill pyramids because we thought it was easier and more balanced, we liked how that came together for the Ares plugin. There would be gear but that was another concern because there's no FFG gear plugin so I'd have to code it.