Something Completely Different
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@selira Is it twisting your words to ask for clarification? I asked you to clarify your position, you did, which was good. For one thing you removing the perception that you were attempting to silence me makes me feel less frustrated about this conversation...and I am quite frustrated at the moment. But less so. So we're getting somewhere.
I am asking you to stop the name calling. To anyone. To yourself even. I would ask you and others on this board to be civil. What can calling someone a nasty name do other than verbally abuse them and make them feel bad? What does it accomplish, exactly? What are you going for with that? Other than perhaps a momentary catharsis? One can disagree with a person's position without doing that.
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@reimesu Let's just say I also don't have the greatest opinion of you as a person based on the tone you choose to use and the level of empathy you generally show.
It was a political event, and it was a post in the politics thread. I actually don't think most people would have been happy about a political debate starting up in RL sads, and would be complaining about that instead.
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@reimesu I'm not stating it was you in a specific sense, that's why I generalized.
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@devrex said in Something Completely Different:
And then the dogpile begins. And folks seem to reckon that if they just say real real loudly that someone is (Fill In The Blank) and That is What They Are...and What They Are is something that it is socially acceptable to punch awhile...misogynist...rape apologist...pick your name (as I point out that name calling is still name calling is still name calling) well then heck, we can just say anything we want about that person now, right?
If I understand you correctly, you are asking for empathy; for people to understand that their opponent has an identity outside of whatever flanderized sin they are accused of. My post will proceed from that assumption. If I'm wrong, you can save yourself some time by skipping this reply and correcting me about your actual point here.
I agree that empathy is a good thing. I hope I've been demonstrating the last couple of days that I'm a proponent of it and would like to see more of it around here. I think that everyone on either side of a monitor is a real person with real feelings that deserve to be treated with kindness, no matter how antisocial their behaviors are. Even if someone is hurt by another's behavior, it is useful to remember that the hurter is more than just a hurter.
But that goes both ways. Just as whichever person we're vaguely gesturing in the direction of is hurt by me calling them a misogynist, I too am hurt by the misogyny they displayed that led me to call them that name. It is a mistake to think that I called them that name because I wanted to inspire a mob to do internet violence to them; I called them that because just as the misogynist deserves kindness, so too do I, and I want them to understand that their stated opinions do harm to me and people like me.*
And so does everyone else who feels either directly or collaterally harmed by the opinions expressed, whether because they're part of the group targeted or because seeing someone else get targeted inspires a sympathetic outrage.
So if we agree that it is good to listen when someone says they are being harmed by another person's internet behavior, I hope we can agree that principle goes both ways. Our hypothetical misogynist does not get to demand that I stop, self-reflect, and alter my speech to better suit their feelings without agreeing to abide by the same restrictions. If he won't do that, then I hope I will have the strength of character to cling to my principles of kindness, but he has no room to complain if my anger causes me to slip and hold myself to the same lower standard he grants himself.
*Never mind that I don't think I've ever called anyone a misogynist. We'll assume that I did for the premise of this discussion.
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@devrex It's a word that succinctly describes brash, abrasive, rude behavior. What does it accomplish? Maybe it causes people to stop and check themselves (before they wreck themselves).
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@greenflashlight I see a lot of labeling of opinions as misogynist without them actually being at all misogynist.
Certainly the most recent dust up shared that problem. I wildly disagree that there was anything in the Set A words that was misogynist.
I saw a lot of weaponized victimization in the aftermath of that post. The actual opinion? The actual words? Were at no point actually engaged with.
And I object to that.
Logging out now for awhile as I'm finally starting to feel genuinely angry, which will be the reason for silence on my end as this conversation continues.
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@rightmeow Thank you, I appreciate that.
@Selira From the level of empathy and understanding that you regularly display, I offer your words back to you: maybe you should re-read what you post and go off and think about what your own behavior. Calling people assholes instead of addressing their behavior isn't empathetic or understanding. Just expedient.
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@devrex said in Something Completely Different:
Certainly the most recent dust up shared that problem. I wildly disagree that there was anything in the Set A words that was misogynist.
I'm not sure which "recent dust up" we're talking about here, so I can't say for sure. I can only say that if a whole bunch of people disagree with you, it may be useful to ask yourself why they think that and what experiences they've had that might inform those perceptions.
I will also say this as a challenge to you: it takes an extraordinary person to reflect on their own behavior. The very act of arguing for a position entrenches a person in that position regardless of right or wrong, because the act of publicly arguing ties your pride into needing to believe you're right.
I am asking myself if it is impossible that my perception of whichever person we're gesturing at is wrong (admittedly I won't find an answer to that question since I'm not sure whom we're talking about, but I am asking). I hope you will ask yourself if it is impossible that the people calling that person a misogynist might not all be wrong.
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@greenflashlight said in Something Completely Different:
If I understand you correctly, you are asking for empathy; for people to understand that their opponent has an identity outside of whatever flanderized sin they are accused of.
(Emphasis added.)
I write to applaud your use of this word.
Also, to add an obligatory Simpsons GIF.
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There's a difference between calling someone a misogynist (or, I've actually seen people calling someone an abuser and stalker)... and pointing out that someone has some ingrained misogyny in their thought patterns and attitudes. It's like calling someone a racist, or pointing out that someone has some elements of racist behavior that they should watch out for. We all suffer from social maladies but hopefully we're aware of them and trying to counteract them. Someone who commits microaggressions against the Hispanic person in her office isn't a racist, but she does have some elements of racist behavior that she would be better off paying attention to. Someone who says that women shouldn't walk in dark alleys at night isn't a misogynist, but should probably pay attention to the fact that they're indulging in some really painful victim blaming. And they should probably be blockable to those victims in a safe community if they don't stop talking like that. But if the ground rules have been laid out that he needs to not engage in these discussions and he's helpful technically, that's a decision that doesn't need to be dogpiled. Especially when the admins have asked repeatedly to stop talking about it until they can sort it out themselves.
But this forum has been decried over the web (particularly reddit) for a long time as being a nesting ground for a toxic clique, with the Hog Pit as their crowning gem, and I guess people in the central friend group felt entitled to be able to do what they wanted regardless of moderating requests, and it exploded. All I can say is... wow, Ganymede really was impartial. So impartial that it seems barely human. Most people can be pressured to step off when a community acts like that, but not Ganymede. I guess from now on you all will see how much of this site was in fact held up by the clique itself, and how much of it was other people who just enjoyed the hobby. Honestly it does seem like the majority of vocal posters are gone, and most of them were mostly reasonable people except for the cliqueishness, and those who are left are still pretty shell-shocked. But if you can make a reputation as a less toxic forum, that'd be probably the only way to survive. Honestly I think you should delete the Hog Pit altogether and not even leave it as an archive, and just move out the threads that are warnings about predators.
That's my irrelevant and unasked-for take, at least.
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@hobos said in Something Completely Different:
Honestly I think you should delete the Hog Pit altogether and not even leave it as an archive, and just move out the threads that are warnings about predators.
We will not be doing this, but I understand why you think it would be a good idea to move the forum forward towards a less-toxic community.
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@hobos said in Something Completely Different:
Someone who commits microaggressions against the Hispanic person in her office isn't a racist, but she does have some elements of racist behavior that she would be better off paying attention to. Someone who says that women shouldn't walk in dark alleys at night isn't a misogynist, but should probably pay attention to the fact that they're indulging in some really painful victim blaming.
This is 100% incorrect. If you engage in racist behavior, you're a racist. If you engage in misogynist behavior, you're a misogynist.
To a degree, we all are, but identifying how you are being such and working to address and mitigate these impulses is key to growing as a person.
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@selira said in Something Completely Different:
To a degree, we all are, but identifying how you are being such and working to address and mitigate these impulses is key to growing as a person.
If someone is working to address and mitigate those impulses, I would not label them. Like you said, to a degree, we all are. So where do you draw the line? I'm not your typical white person, and people micro-aggression me all the time. I don't think they're racists.
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@hobos Yeah, you have to be actively willing to work on your flaws and show that you are actively listening to the people from those communities who say you hurt them. That's the line.
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@hobos said in Something Completely Different:
There's a difference between calling someone a misogynist (or, I've actually seen people calling someone an abuser and stalker)... and pointing out that someone has some ingrained misogyny in their thought patterns and attitudes. It's like calling someone a racist, or pointing out that someone has some elements of racist behavior that they should watch out for. We all suffer from social maladies but hopefully we're aware of them and trying to counteract them. Someone who commits microaggressions against the Hispanic person in her office isn't a racist, but she does have some elements of racist behavior that she would be better off paying attention to. Someone who says that women shouldn't walk in dark alleys at night isn't a misogynist, but should probably pay attention to the fact that they're indulging in some really painful victim blaming..
Bigotry isn't a "social malady", and equivocating it with such is kind of a crummy thing to do.
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@notsanni why is that not a proper way to describe bigotry? Expand?
I have a waggish sense of humor.
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@selira Sounds like a reasonable line.
@NotSanni Bigotry totally is a social malady. Maybe you should read some academic work on the subject, like Critical Race Theory by Richard Delgado.
Anyway, I still think the Hog Pit should be deleted. I remember when someone first told me about it, that "people are upset with you there" and for weeks I struggled to resist the impulse to just go look at it. That whole year was not a mentally healthy time for me.
But, I can also completely cope with the decision of an adminstrator, so -- I can say, whatever, and go back to my business. Yep, a much healthier year for me.
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@misadventure @hobos ah, I misunderstood - given the phrasing and context, I assumed you meant to equate bigotry with mental illness (which has been happening a lot lately). My bad!
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@lotherio said in Something Completely Different:
Again, call me ignorant, but this continued pressure by a select group that has been a vocal majority has the perception of bullying
Isn't "continued pressure by a select group that has been a vocal majority" pretty much just people expressing their desires and a majority of the vocal population agreeing with them? Where do you draw the line between "the majority of the vocal people in the community speaking their minds" and "bullying?" Is the problem just how many people are saying something, because then it's dogpiling? Or is it how things are being said? Because I don't think there should be a problem with a majority of the vocal members of a community expressing their opinion -- that's how communities work. If members of the community are being assholes about expressing their opinion, I think that should be dealt with, but I don't think that members of the community expressing their opinions without being assholes should be a problem (do I think some of the people who were banned/left were assholes about it? Yup. Do I think that most of them were? Nope.).
I think that what's happened in the last couple of weeks was that precipitous action was taken by admin and a precipitous reaction was taken by some community members, and then both sides retreated and dug into their positions, each putting up some strawmen to take potshots at and restating the situation in ways that made them seem good and the other side seem bad. I think that it's quite clear that the trust of a large portion of the vocal community here was broken by the initial action and the actions and statement that followed. I think that a little self-evaluation is an important thing to do when you lose the trust of a large portion of your community.
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@seraphim73 said in Something Completely Different:
(do I think some of the people who were banned/left were assholes about it? Yup. Do I think that most of them were? Nope.)
Agreed and please note in my original post and the one quoted, I said its giving a perception of bullying/dogpiling and it wasn't looking good to me despite the many varied intents.
As far as most vocal being right/wrong, that's not for me to say but it wasn't a good shade for some folks in my opinion. Vocal majority and politics isn't for this area, but not all vocal majority are right or wrong for agreeing together. I mean not all Germans that were swept up with the Nazi agenda were in it for all the negative things associated with said party (there is plenty of fallacy in me going here understandably, but if were making leaps either way, we have to point out the potential negatives too); though I don't think it looked good for some of them even if they were bought by the propaganda vs the reality.
ETA: THe vocal majority said they don't like/trust staff anymore and it kept spiraling. I voiced my opinion that I trust Gany through this process and asked every to give it a fair shake to see how it plays out. Folks can walk if they want, I'm still here.
