RL Anger

[Kanye Qwest]

This has been a couple of pages of really interesting interpretations. Awesome morning-coffee-ignoring-email reading.

[surreality]

@Meg

@kitteh said in Random Bitching:

I think 'don't call people cunts' is, or at least should be, a basic enough bit of etiquette now that it doesn't require detailed academic deconstruction to justify.

This is what I'm talking about.

No individual should have to justify 'I'm offended by that'. That should be enough, and ideally people will respect that and it's certain if they don't after that they're knowingly being offensive and disrespectful.

But when we're trying to make universals? Fuck that. There's no amount of academic browbeating bullshit that is going to force people to be offended or not by something they are offended by or not, and this is not the place for that shit anyway.

ETA: This is the description for that board, specifically:

A place to talk about MU nonsense in the dirt. To participate, join the "Pitcrew" group, but fair warning: It's gonna get messy. No crying.

...not exactly a place where I think Miss Manners would survive without a case of the vapors.

[Meg]

@surreality

I think we must read those things differently. I can kind of see where you are coming from but-- If I said 'don't call people Satan' is a basic enough bit of etiquette, would it have the same implication to you? That I'm saying you have to be offended by being called Satan?

Though, I'd also point out, saying something is a basic bit of etiquette doesn't imply it needs to be adhered to in the hog pit. But I just think it's a long cry from saying you have to be offended, or have to even stop saying it. (For example, not saying 'fuck' at the dinner table is a basic bit of etiquette that Miss Manners has endorsed, and by god, if i fucking paid for the food, i am going to fucking talk how i fucking want over it.)

[saosmash]

FUCK THIS DINNER TABLE.

[Meg]

In other RL anger related posts, (sorry for the double post), I woke up with a fucking horrible migraine and I don't want to go to work, but I have used up most of my PTO. So I have no choice.

[Roz]

@Meg I do think there was a sense of disbelief or skepticism expressed by some people that someone could be living in America in 2017 without realizing that cunt is considered a really nasty thing to call someone, which I could see further extrapolated to a point of "you must be offended by this."

Anyways, I'm still going to land squarely in the camp of "someone objected strongly to being called a cunt and the real problem in that conversation was the people who insisted she shouldn't take issue with the word." Not the people who then had to defend their right to be offended by a word that's considered highly aggressive by a lot of the country.

And I totally agree that calling something a "basic point of etiquette" is very far from saying "you have to be offended by this." I think it's another way of saying, "There is a very common cultural reaction to using this word that is strongly negative." I guess I just refuse to take issue with the idea that people should avoid just dropping loaded words like that at the first sign of annoyance. Which is, again, not the same thing as saying "you have to be offended by the word." Some people toss it around in groups that are totally fine with it. I still don't love that, because I think language is complicated and that the words we use do have an affect on how we view the world, but I'm not arguing about it. (Right now. In this thread. >_>) I still don't think it's so terrible to say that there's cultural etiquette of "maybe don't throw that word around in attack on people you barely know because it's considered a pretty nasty word." The fact that this is common etiquette is, in fact, true. Whether that's terrible or not.

[Meg]

@Meg said in RL Anger:

@surreality

Though, I'd also point out, saying something is a basic bit of etiquette doesn't imply it needs to be adhered to in the hog pit.

Coming back to correct myself. Posting it in the hog pit does imply that, actually, I think. At least to me. Which is stupid yeah because it is the hog pit. I still don't think it implies you have to be offended, but definitely the other implication is stupid.

[surreality]

@Meg said in RL Anger:

@surreality

I think we must read those things differently. I can kind of see where you are coming from but-- If I said 'don't call people Satan' is a basic enough bit of etiquette, would it have the same implication to you? That I'm saying you have to be offended by being called Satan?

When someone goes on to the academic thing, it doesn't sound like a polite recommendation any more. It's less 'don't call people Satan', and more 'I shouldn't have to haul out the bible to explain to anybody with a brain why they shouldn't call somebody Satan'. There's a definite note of condescension in there, let's be frank about that.

@Roz said in RL Anger:

@Meg I do think there was a sense of disbelief or skepticism expressed by some people that someone could be living in America in 2017 without realizing that cunt is considered a really nasty thing to call someone, which I could see further extrapolated to a point of "you must be offended by this."

^ That. Thank you.

Anyways, I'm still going to land squarely in the camp of "someone objected strongly to being called a cunt and the real problem in that conversation was the people who insisted she shouldn't take issue with the word." Not the people who then had to defend their right to be offended by a word that's considered highly aggressive by a lot of the country.

By the time I hopped in there, 'yes, this really is extremely offensive to some (which I continue to say is absolutely OK)' had, really, been covered. At that point, it was the predictable 'but my buddies say it and I don't mind!' and 'don't you know everyone agrees that's rude!' were browbeating each other.•

But, yeah, etiquette rules in the Hog Pit are kinda... uhm. I've had nasty shit said to and about me in other sections of the forum even if they don't involve specific tense terms and that is not just me, almost all of us are in the same boat about that, having the same experience.

If somebody says, "Hey, that's really over the top to me," it is the decent person thing to do to not do that to them, for sure. It's... not the specific venue where I would expect people to default do so (have concern about offending or not) so far as the board goes. All the other sections? Yeah.

• My sleep schedule's wonky as fuck lately, y'all. Seriously. I'm still testy and unslept and hazy-brained due to the dental surgery and painkillers and lasered gums and la la la oh god why do I taste nothing but sour bacon. My tact is absolutely not working well, and my clarity is worse. This isn't an excuse for anything, just a general advisory in case something doesn't seem to make sense. Just, y'know, ask or something, and I will try to clarify, because I'm not actually trying to offend anybody here today or anything. As it is I'm like 'whoa' on the run-on sentences that cross over like cat's cradle still. (Am not sure if it is making this discussion look better or worse than it is, but wavy wavy text is super trippy.)

[Ganymede]

@Meg said in RL Anger:

Where did anyone say that you /must/ be offended by that?

I didn't catch that either.

I know that @kk was saying that she didn't think it was something appropriate to say to another person. And I'm pretty sure @saosmash was expressing her distaste for it and offense of it. But that's about it.

If someone were to tell me that I should be offended by something, that's why I sort of wave them off. You do you, I'll do me, and I don't need anyone to tell me who or what I should be offended by.

---

@saosmash said in RL Anger:

FUCK THIS DINNER TABLE.

The splinters discourage me.

[surreality]

@Ganymede said in RL Anger:

The splinters discourage me.

Do not watch Salem, then, that's all I'm gonna say.

[Meg]

@Ganymede @surreality

omg i was drinking when i read this. you both should feel bad.

[surreality]

@Meg I am just quietly relieved somebody got that reference. That was the first real horror I have seen on television in years!!!

First show in a while in the genre I quietly noped out of after the pilot for a month or two before I had the courage to revisit it. (Which was worth it, but oh. my. gawd.)

[Pandora]

I don't mind who is offended by what, I expressed that I find it interesting what people choose to be offended over. Be offended or don't, that's your choice. I'm simply stating that unlike what appears to be 99% of the MSB population, I will not ever hold my tongue out of fear of offending someone whose opinion/well-being I don't care about. I don't call people cunts because I don't like the word. If I did, I would say it, because honestly the point of insulting someone is to insult them and apparently it's been decided that the misogynists are right: a cunt really is the most offensive thing anyone can be compared to now! Cheers.

Re: the whole 'kill yourself' thing - that's a fucked up thing to say to anyone; I don't advise anyone else to do it, but I can say it whenever I like and anyone that wants to be offended can feel free to be offended. It's literally no skin off my nose & I've never lost a friend over something I've said to someone I already didn't like.

[Meg]

@Pandora

I would argue that philosophically, it is skin off your nose, in the long run. Morally, emotionally. Your words and actions have a weight on the world, whether you choose to acknowledge it or care or not. No one gets through life without making any negative impact, but those that don't have any care about the impact that they make? Idk, man.

[surreality]

Weirdly, I find the fact that any of this argument is happening at all to be a pretty positive sign. As in, in ye olden days of WORA, objecting to being called anything (including any given slur half the time) would just get somebody dogpiled and everyone doubled down on specifically calling them that as much as possible for as long as anyone could be bothered to remember to do it.

If nothing else, it demonstrates a fairly significant difference between MSB and ye olden days of WORA. A good one, I think.

[saosmash]

@Pandora What is your point? Like ... I genuinely do not understand why you are continuing to tell us about how remorseless you are about telling someone to kill themselves.

[Sparks]

@Meg said in RL Anger:

In other RL anger related posts, (sorry for the double post), I woke up with a fucking horrible migraine and I don't want to go to work, but I have used up most of my PTO. So I have no choice.

quietly offers Fiorinal, dark space, and a Cefaly tiara

[Ghost]

@Pandora said in RL Anger:

Re: the whole 'kill yourself' thing - that's a fucked up thing to say to anyone; I don't advise anyone else to do it, but I can say it whenever I like and anyone that wants to be offended can feel free to be offended. It's literally no skin off my nose & I've never lost a friend over something I've said to someone I already didn't like

In the interest of being constructive about what Pandora appears to be saying and seeking clarification without leading forward with snide insinuations that are counterproductive...

It appears that what Pandora might be trying to point out (which, if we truly seek clarification, we will ask Pandora to clarify) is that it's up to the individual to determine their own level of self-sanitization on behalf of the local population. Pandora isn't suggesting anyone say such things, nor promoting people saying such things, nor even SUPPORTING people saying such things, but if Pandora felt so inclined to say such a thing to someone, it's really up to the person who says it to determine whether or not they should feel bad about it.

When people start to cherry pick who/when it is acceptable to use such words/statements towards people, the dialogue just becomes a blowhardy forum as to whether or not it was warranted. Some might applaud someone for telling Donald Trump or Pol Pot to kill themselves and deliver a belatedly joyous round of high fives, but then scold the same people for doing it to random, rude people on the internet. Whether or not one feels this is acceptable isnt the point, the point is that the cherry picking happens from time to time.

Then again, I'm also getting the sense that Pandora isn't willing to be browbeat about what they choose to or to not say by popular vote in lieu of remaining true to themselves and the precedent that sanitizing to appease people on an internet forum might set.

All in all, if Pandora intends to clarify, I'll read it, but we should refrain from attributing assumptions without asking constructive, qualifying questions.

[Auspice]

@Meg said in RL Anger:

In other RL anger related posts, (sorry for the double post), I woke up with a fucking horrible migraine and I don't want to go to work, but I have used up most of my PTO. So I have no choice.

That was yesterday for me. I just sat in the dark all cranky-fied. Here's to an improved rest-o-the-day for you.

[kk]

@surreality

I am quite baffled. I believe that you argued that threads shouldn't be derailed over this stuff and yet here you are four days later on another thread still complaining that people didn't like that word being used.

I also don't recall anyone outright saying or even implying that people have to be offended by cunt. I have no idea where this impression is coming from.