A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like

[Arkandel]

@surreality I admit my awareness of that situation past my own brief window of involvement is minimal. I was mostly messing with @Ghost, I don't actually know a lot about what happened.

[surreality]

@Arkandel Still, that chick already has enough problems, clearly, internally and from external sources antagonizing her, that dropping all the blame at her feet for something like that just... I can easily see some 'worst case scenario' horror stories growing out of that characterization of events that could do harm in the long run when it would inevitably get referenced again in the future.

[Arkandel]

@surreality Fair enough. I deleted my comment.

[Misadventure]

I don't want to have to police someone with a proven track record of trouble.

[Ganymede]

@Misadventure said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

I don't want to have to police someone with a proven track record of trouble.

My thoughts exactly.

[Ghost]

Okay, this might sound stupid, but hear me out.

People wanna avoid innocent people getting blacklisted, right? But at the same time, there are people who deserve to be blacklisted.

We have many regular game runners. @faraday @Cobaltasaurus @Seraphim73 etc etc etc

So...if what people are looking for is a coordinated effort, then maybe these people who we regularly turn to for game ownership should put their heads together, keep a google drive folder of logs and evidence, and post a list of personalities who are unwelcome on their games.

Kinda like...ship captains

[Paris]

@Ghost I don't like that at all. Too easy to abuse.

[surreality]

@Ghost I think we're probably stuck with the forum for that, unfortunately. While it's kinda slapdash and definitely random, some kind of database/permanent record sort of thing in any more formalized fashion has three potential pitfalls I can foresee:

• It wouldn't be as visible as the forum as a resource re: 'as a new game runner, where would I look for data?'
• It wouldn't be as easy to add data to the pile as quoting a log into a post that collects the data, and people may refrain from reporting if there are extra hoops to jump through or it's more formalized somehow
• ...though I hate bringing this part up, it could potentially be legally iffy to formally compile data like this as an endeavor more organized than what we've got now, whether it's in terms of stalking, cyberbullying, etc. -- and considering how much most of the problem children love to play the victim, this would be a concern for me personally, at least. (I am one broke bitch. All I'd need is some jackass suing me.)

[Lotherio]

I don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but there are other places game runners hang out (and frequent more than MSB). There are a number of social Mu*'s still open (and yes, more active than OGR/Gateway). I go to those places first if I suspect a problem player.

[Salty Secrets]

To be honest a database has too much potential for abuse. Databases are often presented as fact. You can't discuss with a database, you can't argue with a database, and you can't appeal to a database. You have to take what's in it as-is.

While there are flaws to having a forum for this purpose, at least a forum provides significantly more context as to why someone should be earmarked. You can tell how many people back the decision, you can see the discussion that's been caused by the thread, and you can even sometimes see the culprits show up to dig themselves a deeper hole or apologize. You can, sometimes, even read the tone the accusations are being made with and determine from that whether they should be taken at face value or not.

A fifty pages thread about Elsa or VASpider is highly preferable to a collection of logs without context or story. It may be less efficient, but does the hobby really have so many rotten apples as to require efficient and organized cataloging of them?

[Paris]

@ghost Thinking about it, I feel I owe a reason for saying 'no' instead of just saying it.

I don't like it because sometimes things go bad on games, or people make stupid mistakes, or people have that bad day/month/year, etc; it makes folks look lousy, and winding up on that kind of list starts outing people who can use a new game to start clean and learn from their fuckups, and/or evade toxic staff elsewhere, or vindictive cliques (which have come up quite a few times over the last few days).

Full disclosure, and probably TMI, I've had some bad run-ins on games. Granted this is over about 24 years of MU*ing, but how long would that kind of thing stick on that kind of document?

I was blacklisted from a set of games back in the 90s, in the SYE era, by a particular clique that brought up game after game over several years, and if they weren't running them, they were staffing on them. My great sin was that I was playing an opposite-sex character, and a staffer who'd crushed hard on that character was told by my jealous RLSO (at the time) that the player was of a different sex. I'd never pretended OOC to be anything other than who I was and I did not lead them on (I was already in a relationship and was trying to make that work!) but they, a virulent homophobe, decided that I had tried to 'trap' them because our PCs had expressed interest in each other (though they had not TSed).

After I left my SO (and that game), they, their friends, and this person especially, tracked my IP and kept a list of known sightings and updated IPs, and either got me banned, or hunted my PCs with their alts while using their staffbits to track me while I was unfindable-- even if we'd never interacted before. They were allowed to do this until I took a long break, and then on my return changed my writing style and the type of character I played. I was able to avoid them for years after that, but about ten years later, my ex found out who I was, and started right back up.

They, to this day, 20 years later, try to sabotage my IC and OOC relationships on games if they find out, which is why I rarely share RL details (and was part of why I did not share my cancer fundraiser with the MU* community). I'm only comfortable admitting to all of this on this account because a) AFAIK most of them are not around anymore, don't run or staff anywhere, and b) I only play on my own game right now, so I can't be hunted by staffalts.

So my first reaction to a multi-game DB of 'problem players' elicits a visceral 'NO!' from me. Those folks got plenty of nice people to believe all sorts of nasty crap about me because I a) cross-played and b) left the wrong very controlling ex, who is very good at assembling their own little posse. When they thought someone ELSE was me, they poisoned just about every relationship that person ever had on that game, and when it became clear that person wasn't me, the damage was done.

So, I don't even remotely want to make things harder for unjustly ostracised OR genuinely repentant players to start with a clean slate. On my own game, we've had a few who, new to MU*ing, had a rough start, but we gave them more chances and they absolutely became better players. We've had folks from other games whom staff openly mocked as terrible, but they also became, after more experience, active, friendly, and helpful assets to the game.

We are pretty good at tracking the most toxic players here, and we know that they are consistently and genuinely toxic because of patterns of behavior that haven't changed over years (and years). Those are the players we need to look out for; most genuinely troublesome players are rarely that dedicated and either get better or get sick of backlash and leave.

[SparklesTheClown]

I also like to think that there's no fucking way these people wouldn't get dragged for doing that shit in the modern era.

[mietze]

HP, you'd be wrong. It does indeed still happen.

[Paris]

@HelloProject said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

I also like to think that there's no fucking way these people wouldn't get dragged for doing that shit in the modern era.

Having had a really unpleasant run-in with an extremely homophobic staffer in the last year or so, which resulted in several other staff becoming pretty unpleasant, and the resulting OOC retaliation and ostracism, I can assure you that people still get away with that kind of shit.

[SparklesTheClown]

Because of my irl experiences (I live in Philadelphia), I spent my first years in MUing hiding my race because I was terrified people would hate me if they found out I was black. Though it wasn't because I thought people were racist, it was because I had it hammered into my head that being black was an inherently bad thing >__<. (I got better)

So, if nothing else, I do understand the fear, even if I've only experienced a few race things in MUing.

[Paris]

@HelloProject A few is a few too many. :<

[Derp]

@Paris said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

@HelloProject said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

I also like to think that there's no fucking way these people wouldn't get dragged for doing that shit in the modern era.

Having had a really unpleasant run-in with an extremely homophobic staffer in the last year or so, which resulted in several other staff becoming pretty unpleasant, and the resulting OOC retaliation and ostracism, I can assure you that people still get away with that kind of shit.

You and I don't always agree on things, but in this case, that is a super shitty thing to have happen. I refuse to accept homophobic OOC bullshit at any level, and that is one of the things that I will absolutely make sure stops, one way or another. It's 2017, that sort of attitude is bullshit in the highest.

[Paris]

@Derp said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

@Paris said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

@HelloProject said in A Constructive Thread About People We Might Not Like:

I also like to think that there's no fucking way these people wouldn't get dragged for doing that shit in the modern era.

Having had a really unpleasant run-in with an extremely homophobic staffer in the last year or so, which resulted in several other staff becoming pretty unpleasant, and the resulting OOC retaliation and ostracism, I can assure you that people still get away with that kind of shit.

You and I don't always agree on things, but in this case, that is a super shitty thing to have happen. I refuse to accept homophobic OOC bullshit at any level, and that is one of the things that I will absolutely make sure stops, one way or another. It's 2017, that sort of attitude is bullshit in the highest.

I'm glad to hear it. I don't mind disagreeing, either; even if our differences might be very sharp, you don't strike me as a bad person.

I'm not sure who you were on Fallcoast, so I figure our differences are mostly just here.

[Derp]

@Paris, on Fallcoast I'm Enki/Heka.

[Paris]

@Derp I don't think we ran into each other. :<