Also he'd probably tell you that one of the staff members in 1995 really liked Alien and literally the only forest your character conceivably knows about is filled with Totally Not Aliens monsters.
(totally not an alien, this is a kryl, do not believe anyone who tells you otherwise)
@ortallus said in Armageddon MUD:
Does that 40 year old hunter need to know how not to make basic social faux pas that might get him killed?
Yes. Absolutely yes. And that includes going into the wrong neighborhood where he might get mugged.
Having discussed the social faux pas thing above, I'll just mention that the "wrong neighborhood" in an Armageddon context is typically the Labyrinth, which is clearly described with multiple warnings in OOC documentation as well as the IC room descriptions themselves as being Not a Nice Place. It is also pretty hard to wander in there by mistake.
When I mentioned being in the wrong neighborhood and getting mugged as a mistake earlier (like back on page... 10?..) I meant it as a mistake in terms of a "I have heard these warnings, but don't heed them" sense rather than a "Whoops, you took a wrong turn, now you die!" sense. Just to clarify.
@rahnevyn said in Armageddon MUD:
@ortallus said in Armageddon MUD:
Does that 40 year old hunter need to know how not to make basic social faux pas that might get him killed?
Yes. Absolutely yes. And that includes going into the wrong neighborhood where he might get mugged.
Having discussed the social faux pas thing above, I'll just mention that the "wrong neighborhood" in an Armageddon context is typically the Labyrinth, which is clearly described with multiple warnings in OOC documentation as well as the IC room descriptions themselves as being Not a Nice Place. It is also pretty hard to wander in there by mistake.
When I mentioned being in the wrong neighborhood and getting mugged as a mistake earlier (like back on page... 10?..) I meant it as a mistake in terms of a "I have heard these warnings, but don't heed them" sense rather than a "Whoops, you took a wrong turn, now you die!" sense. Just to clarify.
Right, and people that don't heed warnings, that's on them. I was just using that as a vague example, because it happened to me on another place. xD Other examples were given, though, for your own.
I'm not saying that things are as bad as some have said -now-. But others have had complaints that looked legitimate, so, whatever.
@rahnevyn said in Armageddon MUD:
When I mentioned being in the wrong neighborhood and getting mugged as a mistake earlier (like back on page... 10?..) I meant it as a mistake in terms of a "I have heard these warnings, but don't heed them" sense rather than a "Whoops, you took a wrong turn, now you die!" sense. Just to clarify.
I think that's been a big part of the problem in this thread is all the seemingly-contradictory information.
"You won't be punished for being a newbie" vs "People will totally react to your faux pas without breaking character, as if you're a moron, or take advantage of you for making a mistake"
"You have to just learn things for yourself, like where water is and where to hunt" vs "Here's a handy map and a helpfile describing how to hunt"
"There's no OOC channels in-game, why would you even want such a thing?" vs "It's totally fine to use +ooc for brief questions, that's what it's there for"
"Your welcoming might very well be a mugging and/or a murder, just roll with it" vs "We're here to help the new players and there are tons of OOC and IC warning messages"
Etc. And that's all from the people advertising the game - that's not even counting the obvious critics. Personally? It's not a game for me either way and can only attribute my continued participation in this thread to temporary insanity. But folks trying to boil down the dissent to a disagreement about MUDs vs MUSHes are completely missing what folks are actually complaining and/or confused about.
well, we're not making contrarian viewpoints - except that i don't think anyone here who plays armageddon and is assisting in advertisement has said "not" to use the ooc command for things like asking brief questions.
yes, you can get mugged, crime-code generally turns off at night in the streets unless an npc is very nearby. you won't be mugged for being new, but you can be mugged, it's something new players should come into the game expecting could happen. i don't see the issue.
i had it hard when i started out, and other people before me probably had it harder. oocly, we are here to help people. icly, however, it depends on who you talk to. i thought that would be obvious.
there are ooc warnings if you read help labyrinth, or IC if you walk into the labyrinth rooms and see "this place looks like a total shithole". you'd know you stumbled into the rinth, and you'd have a pretty good idea that some very bad people live there. this isn't a mush only forum, we're advertising for a mud. if that does not appeal to you, and you have no prior experience with our mud, then i'd ask that you respect what we're trying to do here and go about your business elsewhere.
Usually when two sides disagree on something like this they say “we’re going to have to agree to disagree”.
I’m going to invoke that right now so that we don’t cause anymore temporary insanity.
@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:
Usually when two sides disagree on something like this they say “we’re going to have to agree to disagree”.
I’m going to invoke that right now so that we don’t cause anymore temporary insanity.
I disagree that we're going to have to agree to disagree.
I also disagree with taking efforts to not case any more insanity.
(Actually, I don't. Take the above with a grain of salt, if you will.)
Just FYI, going to personally ignore this thread. I think it's run it's course, and don't need to keep seeing it pop up.
Thanks to everyone for keeping it largely civil. I wish Armageddon the best, and hope that the people who go there and enjoy the setting enjoy it wholeheartedly. It's just not what I personally am looking for just now.
Not gonna hop into this argument, but when I get @ I like being quoted for things I acually claim and said, @thugheaven. On page 9, your confusing my ooc communication issues with someone else comparing rpis to some game. Grumble grumble
@d-bone said in Armageddon MUD:
A benign question asked oocly- even if your character icly might have knowledge of such- that is illegal could be something as simple as:Hey is it a good idea to go outside the west gate and hunt there or is the east gate safer? Some games go find out ic, Arma has a much harder stance on that shit, not only do you not get the answer, you should be 'reminded' not to ask questions like that.
Oh, no, it was for you. And here's why: In your example you want to go about it ooc, because you feel your character would know which one is safer. So even if you asked which was was safer, at best you would get a response like: Neither way is safer.
So your example is kind of vague. I'm not even sure what kind of answer you're looking for.
So I'm assuming you wouldn't want them to show you what's safe for you to hunt, which is what is likely to happen. So let's throw that out.
Maybe you mean, "I want directions to a safe hunting ground." Nobody is going to give you a "Go N,E,S,S,N,N" it's not that kind of game. Not going to happen. Not going to get into you not being punished for it either, you just won't get the answer you're looking for.
The reason nobody is going to tell you definitively "GO EAST!" is because if you go in one direction you're going to find spiders, if you go in the other you're going to find mekillots. Both are creatures that would give veteran hunters pause.
What you can do is stay in character is say, "My father always said the best hunting is out the east gate, what you think Joebob?" And Joe bob would probably reply, "Your father must've liked running from mekillots."
Most of this has been said before but I'll chime in too.
I played Armageddon twice, and both times ended up leaving.
I've played on a lot of different text games, and before I started MUSHing the games I played were MUDs. Some RPE, some RPI, I liked trying new stuff.
I found Armageddon to be just about the least newbie friendly a game could possibly be. There was an approval process for characters that would often get sent back for edits (I got one because a person of whatever race or culture I picked would not have the eye color I listed, so I got to write it over.) So work is put into creating a new character, which is fine it is on lots of games. But. As a newbie you have to find a source of food, a safe place to sleep, etc etc or you won't last your first hours of play. This may seem like oooh gritty fantasy but it is really just tedious in practice. After one afternoon of 'you are starving to death' messages and no source of food that I could just buy or even gather, I was dunzo.
Second time I gave it a go was about 2 or 3 years later. This time I joined a clan fairly quickly so I had tons of food, and tons of supplies to use to practice my skills (I made a crafter) and some people who would look out for me. I was working on some crafting while rping with a guy in the clan and finished a shirt, it looked cool! I decided I wanted to put it on. And then here comes the thing that we've discussed on these very boards, the moment where in changing my shirt it wasn't handwaved but instead the dude present said something to my character about her nice tits.
I know some people who LOVE it and that's cool by me. I did not, the reasons above are two glaring examples but there are others, I could go on. The reason it is not my jam is not that I can't handle the 'gritty' atmosphere (their words not mine, I don't see a lot of grit just annoying details) Rather it is not my jam because there's so much focus on things that are wastes of time and less focus on things that are fun for players.
Caveat: Both of these experiences were late 90's early 2000's. A lot may have changed.
@faraday said in Armageddon MUD:
@rahnevyn said in Armageddon MUD:
When I mentioned being in the wrong neighborhood and getting mugged as a mistake earlier (like back on page... 10?..) I meant it as a mistake in terms of a "I have heard these warnings, but don't heed them" sense rather than a "Whoops, you took a wrong turn, now you die!" sense. Just to clarify.
I think that's been a big part of the problem in this thread is all the seemingly-contradictory information.
"You won't be punished for being a newbie" vs "People will totally react to your faux pas without breaking character, as if you're a moron, or take advantage of you for making a mistake"
"You have to just learn things for yourself, like where water is and where to hunt" vs "Here's a handy map and a helpfile describing how to hunt"
"There's no OOC channels in-game, why would you even want such a thing?" vs "It's totally fine to use +ooc for brief questions, that's what it's there for"
"Your welcoming might very well be a mugging and/or a murder, just roll with it" vs "We're here to help the new players and there are tons of OOC and IC warning messages"
Etc. And that's all from the people advertising the game - that's not even counting the obvious critics. Personally? It's not a game for me either way and can only attribute my continued participation in this thread to temporary insanity. But folks trying to boil down the dissent to a disagreement about MUDs vs MUSHes are completely missing what folks are actually complaining and/or confused about.
Some of this isn't unique to Armageddon but is part of the RPI culture. I remember back in the day when I played MUDs and was frequently on mudconnector and topmudsites and other forums talking about this or that. One of the most heated debates, heated to the point of ugly, was RPI vs not RPI. Granted this is all at least 15 years ago, but the amount of ridiculous put into those debates was...well ridiculous. I've seen a lot of toxic in the MUSH culture (right here on these boards even!) but very rarely does it get as asinine as the knock down drag out fights I witnessed when people argued what was RPI and what wasnt and some tried to explain why RPI was vry srs and all other roleplaying games were not 'real rp' because people can communicate OOC, or people help newbies, or there is not permanent death.
I've assumed that in the 15 years since they've reached some kind of consensus but I haven't gone back to look.
I've tried Armageddon a few times over the years. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.
All in all, it's an RPI. A somewhat more brutal example of the genre, admittedly, but more or less just an RPI. You either love 'em or you hate 'em. Or maybe you have a more mild opinion on them, I don't know.
As much as I hate to contribute to the horrific overuse of this comparison...
If you like Dark Souls and you like MUs and you like... I don't know, hairless dwarves and sand and mantis people, you might like Armageddon! Or you might not. It's a crazy world of risks we live in.
I knew the comparison to dark souls was coming, and I have a huge problem with this analogy. If Armageddon was dark souls, it sounds like the worst dark souls game ever conceived.
The Mantra of Dark Soulesque games are- I'm dieing a lot and it's all my fault. As the thread established, there are a lot of reasons why a character might die or be ruined that are distinctly not the players fault. Furthermore..
Dark Souls is more fair.. and if you make a mistake in dark souls you have a downtime of approximately 3-10 minutes- and can generally figure out a way to actually correct behavior through watching, responding and experimenting. Observation of enemy beaviors, enemy placements and what not allow players to more or less to gain experience.
If we were to use Armageddon as a comparison, you make a mistake because you were not informed, or otherwise just behave not 'normally'- (or to be fair, don't take the game's wilderness seriously- though information on where you can go to new players is fairly scant) the game deletes your save file- and the reload takes anywhere from 2-3 days approval process on top of your character design process down time. Don't forget your skills are all reset obviously, so your ability to observe in detail for the future is significantly stunted until you get to your previous point. You also lose all your gear, your stats are randomly rerolled so you could become completely useless and have to suicide anyway and redo the entire process, and maybe this character will rub someone the wrong way too? Who knows! This is not a 'fair' system, especially if the game is not forthcoming with information from the gate.
Whether you actually learned anything from your mistake may be negotiable- perhaps you just got unlucky, perhaps one player was having a bad day and ganked you. Or perhaps staff decided to animate an npc and murder you, or you accidentally log onto the day of reckoning and plot that has player over turn over like nobodies business.Or a freak enemy placement, or you purchase a bunch of junk in the newbie shop because no one bothered to tell you what is actually worthwhile. Or maybe you get murdered by a templar because you somehow role played knowing how to read and instead of being a rational person, they killed you, because lets face it, those people also play this game too. I'm currently playing with some now on the RPI I currently play, I am a hundred percent certain they exist on Arma
@d-bone said in Armageddon MUD:
If we were to use Armageddon as a comparison, you make a mistake because you were not informed, or otherwise just behave not 'normally'- (or to be fair, don't take the game's wilderness seriously- though information on where you can go to new players is fairly scant) the game deletes your save file- and the reload takes anywhere from 2-3 days approval process on top of your character design process down time.
I mean... People iron man Dark Souls. Mostly speedrunners, but...
Anyway, you're taking the comparison way too far. I simply meant that Dark Souls is an unforgiving and brutal game. So is Armageddon. I did not mean to compare an RPI MUD to a hack-and-slash RPG in every aspect.
Also, I'd argue the point that Dark Souls is more or less fair every time, and that most deaths can be considered a learning experience. I didn't have a terrible amount of issue with most of the bosses. Most of my deaths came from a horrible camera and janky controls on narrow walkways over bottomless pits or massive drops.
As for Armageddon, like... most of those issues have been addressed on this thread. Documentation has apparently been improved, despite, in my opinion, being already fairly extensive. Here's a page that gives you a map and lists all the important locations. It tells you some dangerous places to go, gives you a link to more information on one of them, and then further links to an even more in depth map. Here's a link to the Jobs helpfile that lists several decent starter jobs for anyone who needs a few bucks. Or... I think they use obsidian coins? Here's a link to a page all about the music theory and history of music in the world of Zalanthas and how it's differed in the two main cities! Why? I dunno'.
As has been pointed out, the game's under new management. Staff is different, apparently less murderous. I only know this because I read the previous comments where it's been said about thirty times. I understand that a game as long lived as Armageddon produces a few sore spots and definitely churns out horror stories, but like... I don't know. Maybe give the new guys a chance before damning them with the sins of their predecessors. Or don't. I'm not particularly biased either way.
The lack of information on how to address a Templar is, admittedly a headscratcher. As seen here, it lays out how to address a Tuluki Templar, but apparently that city has been closed to PCs? I have no idea. I'd recommend sending up a request to staff. Seems more like oversight to me, or someone forgot to update the website's help files. Not exactly an uncommon occurrence.
I don't play Armageddon because those monsters endorse hairless dwarves, and I for one won't be a part of that injustice, but it seems like a lot of the same complaints that keep getting brought up on this thread are a bit outdated for this game with 20 years of history behind it.
@marsgrad said in Armageddon MUD:
I mean... People iron man Dark Souls. Mostly speedrunners, but...
Anyway, you're taking the comparison way too far. I simply meant that Dark Souls is an unforgiving and brutal game. So is Armageddon. I did not mean to compare an RPI MUD to a hack-and-slash RPG in every aspect.
Not really participating much in this discussion. Everything there was to say has been said. But that comparison of a hack and slash to RP(anything) MUD really made me shudder.
something something sheer thongs and egad you can buy things on a marketplace. This is not the grit you were looking for.
Also he'd probably tell you that one of the staff members in 1995 really liked Alien and literally the only forest your character conceivably knows about is filled with Totally Not Aliens monsters.
(totally not an alien, this is a kryl, do not believe anyone who tells you otherwise)
