MUers in the news?

Ganymede

@Nymeria said in MUers in the news?:

I haven't said that we don't?

I admit I got the wrong impression when you wrote:

"We've said you'd need to find a way of fitting in a character from outside of Westeros."

I took that to mean that the onus is on the player to figure things out for themselves.

My bad.

Runescryer

@Macha said in MUers in the news?:

Could it just have been that Martin grew up on fantasy settings, etc, that were portrayed by...well, white people? A huge amount of fantasy stories I recall, have a huge amount of white people.

Because the writers were usually white, so a lot of what was written back in the day in fantasy seems white. (I am not saying I am a huge expert. I am not. I read a ton of fantasy in my younger days, older stuff from my much older cousins/etc that got left around my gran's/aunt's house. But I don't remember a lot of people being not described as white)

This is a key point. I can't think of any fiction genre that isn't currently dealing with some sort of backlash over lack of diversity because the majority of published fiction has traditionally been written by white authors. My biggest area of experience in this is comics publishing. Until the late 60's/early 70's, there were few, if any, Black or other PoC of note in mainstream comics, with the exception of mentors like the Ancient One or stock villians like the Mandarin. It was when Blacksploitation came along that Marvel and DC started focusing on non-white heroes. And modern icons like Black Panther and Luke Cage were created and written by white/Jewish creators to start out. But those starting steps into diversity lead to PoC artists and writers entering the industry. Which lead to greater diversity of characters and creators. It's not an instant fix sort of deal by any means; it takes time for the cycle to advance. Fantasy just happens to be one of the more hide-bound genres and the most resistant to change, IMO. You can name dozens of White fantasy authors dealing in faux-Europe settings, while the few Black fantasy writers there are tend to be more Afro-centric in their settings, which isn't the default that fantasy readers are used to. But, that's slowly changing, and that's good. More diversity in creators leads to more diversity in stories.

Nymeria

@faraday said in MUers in the news?:

In a modern/real-world context I can understand that. But we're talking about fantasy settings here. The only "roots" are what you define within the context of the fantasy world.

If you're using an existing setting, the roots are defined already. I dislike tearing them up. Others obviously don't care, and are happy to ignore the text and add whatever the players want. For me, that defeats the point of using an existing setting.

But for a writer, sure, in some cases it works to define your Fantasyland as diverse. And in some cases, it doesn't. Why shouldn't someone be allowed to write a story set in an isolationist, monoethnic culture? Whether that culture is white, Asian, black or whatever (though I dislike using RL ethnicity labels for secondary worlds).

faraday

@Nymeria said in MUers in the news?:

Why shouldn't someone be allowed to write a story set in an isolationist, monoethnic culture?

I don't recall anybody saying they shouldn't be allowed. In fact, I said:

@faraday said in MUers in the news?:

If you're making your own personal novel/story/etc. and want to do some kind of discrimination allegory - I can respect that.

So to reiterate - having a mono-ethnic culture is not intrinsically a bad thing. One just should ask why you're making it mono-ethnic, especially if that mono is all white. Is it really central to the story/world? Or is it just lazy storytelling (like sci-fi mono-climate planets) or implicit biases at work?

@Nymeria said in MUers in the news?:

If you're using an existing setting, the roots are defined already. I dislike tearing them up.

Skin color is rarely an essential, defining quality of those roots.

For instance, my son (an avid LoTR fan) recently did an essay on diversity in LoTR. He acknowledged that Tolkein's original lore did define the kingdoms with certain skin colors (loosely based on real Earth geography, with the region of focus being European and predominately white). However, he argues that people of color like to watch these shows too and "they deserve to have fantasy heroes that look like them." He also noted the benefits for white people seeing people of color not always being the bad guys (as Tolkein originally defined them). It would make no difference to the story if the kingdom of Rohan were patterned more after the steppe peoples of Asia, for instance, or if some of the dwarves in the Hobbit movies had different skin tones.

If an 11-year-old can see that the impact on actual modern-day humans matters more than the beloved lore of a white guy from the 1930's, I think more adults could stand to come to that realization.

Nymeria

@faraday said in MUers in the news?:
It would make no difference to the story if the kingdom of Rohan were patterned more after the steppe peoples of Asia, for instance, or if some of the dwarves in the Hobbit movies had different skin tones.

It makes a significant difference to the world-building. And that matters a lot for believable, immersive fantasy.

If an 11-year-old can see that the impact on actual modern-day humans matters more than the beloved lore of a white guy from the 1930's, I think more adults could stand to come to that realization.

I love the dismissiveness inherent in "a white guy from the 1930's".

There are plenty of things out there for all the actual modern-day humans to enjoy already. Not everything has to be updated to conform to the current fashion of how things should be done.

In fact, I would argue don't film Tolkien or Martin if their stories aren't diverse enough. Just pick something else.

But anyway, not getting into this tedious discussion again. I am not changing my mind, which is don't screw with the canon for any reason. And that's how I will always run a book-based game. Still, the point that I initially posted to refute stands: we do not disallow non-white characters.

faraday

@Nymeria said in MUers in the news?:

I love the dismissiveness inherent in "a white guy from the 1930's".

I'm not really clear on how that is dismissive. It was not meant to be - I believe it is an accurate descriptor of Tolkein. I am not saying that makes him a bad guy, but he is a product of the day and age he grew up in. Just as we all are. I have biases of my own having grown up a white girl in the 1980's, as previously acknowledged.

@Nymeria said in MUers in the news?:

But anyway, not getting into this tedious discussion again. I am not changing my mind, which is don't screw with the canon for any reason.

Great. I am not changing my mind either, which is that the impact on real people is more important than canon. So I guess there is no need for further debate.

Ghost

But let's get to brass tacks, here.

House of the Dragon has GRRM's name on it. GRRM is an executive producer, writer, etc on it. GRRM has spoken positively about diversity of casting and has said he plans to introduce more BIPOC characters in upcoming novels...whenever those get finished. If GRRM felt it was so important that the Velaryons couldn't be black because of all of the reasons @Nymeria states that they simply cannot budge on non-white characters in their MUSH, he would have fought it tooth and nail.

It's not the ACTUAL CONTENT CREATOR who is taking a hard-line stance, crying about "woke SJW bullshit", saying racist things, or literally making the news for their toxicity. It's a pair of people who have decided more than once to gatekeep/act like the owners of someone else's actual work and do toxic things online in the name of someone who doesn't support their behavior.

With that in mind, I cannot say why I would allow those people to affect my legacy by remaining involved with them, why I would in any way support their MUSH, and hope that they get fired/cut loose to be left as a couple of MU hosts running a text-based chatty game in a world that they don't own.

Misadventure

How does the Legend of the Five Rings setting handle this topic, in its sources, and in online play?

Macha

@Nymeria No one said you can't create a monoethnic culture. It's when you want that creation to be shown to the entire world, you may want to realize some people may question it, especially if it is all white.

And when the person who created the existing setting admits he wasn't sure if he should make a certain group non-white because he didn't want to make it seem as black=bad, but has no problem with PoC being cast in the world he created... why do you? (As an aside, if you're going to be so up in arms about people being cast that don't match the descriptions, maybe you should write your own setting and lore and monoethnic story?)

Also, there are totally isolationist monoethnic cultures/supposedly sovereign nations in the current world. We call them white supremist compounds, here in the states.

Ganymede

@Misadventure said in MUers in the news?:

How does the Legend of the Five Rings setting handle this topic, in its sources, and in online play?

I really don't like playing the "what about?" game in an honest discussion, but the game doesn't really mention anything about racial makeup. That said, William Adams, aka Miura Anjin, and Yasuke effectively eliminate any argument about non-ethnic-East-Asian folks not having a place in a setting like Rokugan.

reimesu

I'm just going to come out and say it: @Nymeria. You are indeed racist and it shows. You're proving it by word and deed.

To quote Maya Angelou, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time."

You've been showing us for years.

hobos

I guess the debate is about whether Nymeria is really just a stickler for canon or actually a racist. Looking at the history posted by Ghost and the other points made, I think the conclusion is obvious and she is a racist. Everyone's a little bit racist deep inside, so maybe that's forgiveable if she wanted to work on herself. But obviously she is just doubling down.

If anyone cares they could probably try to storm twitter about it. Neil Gaiman is going to be in real proximity to GRRM soon (Oct 27th) and I'm fairly sure another celebrated author's advice would go much further than the influence of a couple racist ghostwriters. So the time to make petitions and write letters and so on is probably now. I guess even though I started reading ASOIAF when I was 12 at my local library, I just don't care enough to go to any real effort to save people from turning a fantasy franchise into a cesspit, so that's going to have to be up to anyone who cares.

Ghost

@hobos Right. At the risk of sounding derogatory, the reality is that if you're upset with your Big Mac, you'll get better results talking to the manager than you would screaming at the fry cooks.

Ganymede

@Ghost said in MUers in the news?:

At the risk of sounding derogatory, the reality is that if you're upset with your Big Mac, you'll get better results talking to the manager than you would screaming at the fry cooks.

Yes, but we're not yelling at fry cooks; we're yelling against racist takes.

Ghost

@Ganymede said in MUers in the news?:

@Ghost said in MUers in the news?:

At the risk of sounding derogatory, the reality is that if you're upset with your Big Mac, you'll get better results talking to the manager than you would screaming at the fry cooks.

Yes, but we're not yelling at fry cooks; we're yelling against racist takes.

Oh no I get that, but clearly yelling at the fry cooks in this case isn't going to yield any sort of result. Best to take it up with the manager whose legacy is on the line.

Ganymede

@Ghost said in MUers in the news?:

Oh no I get that, but clearly yelling at the fry cooks in this case isn't going to yield any sort of result. Best to take it up with the manager whose legacy is on the line.

But if the fry cooks are the reason why my french fries suck, I'm not going to complain to the manager about the potatoes they've provided.

cat angry

Ghost

@Ganymede said in MUers in the news?:

But if the fry cooks are the reason why my french fries suck, I'm not going to complain to the manager about the potatoes they've provided.

But if the fry cooks forget to sprinkle Cajun seasoning on your fries and instead sprinkle racism seasoning on your fries, they're not likely to fire themselves if you complain to them. You gotta talk to people that can choose for them.

Wretched

il-volpe

@Nymeria Ehh, I won't stand corrected. It may well be that you have no rule barring characters of colour per se. However, scrutinizing them such that they're nigh impossible to get approved (on a game with a very laborious application process at that) amounts to the same thing.

I doubt lot of people are super keen to play PCs of colour on a game where they are strongly discouraged by a headwiz who's notorious for saying racist things on social media.

@hobos I getcha. I wondered about it myself -- not only is GoT a typical white fantasy setting, the notion of family resemblance, and specifically in terms of hair-colour, is a major plot point. More than once.

I didn't do or say anything about it. Game of Bones had PCs of colour. I even actively encouraged them. But players, all on their own, kept their Lannisters blonde, their Baratheons black-haired, etc. "Not Overtly Forbidden" does not mean "Inevitable".

I did not have problems with PCs of colour having a reason to be in the setting. Because, one, every character needs a reason to be in the specific setting of a game, and players all come up with one. I simply didn't require PoC to have a good and compelling one while white PCs were there for the beer, all characters were allowed to be there for stupid reasons. It's realistic. Also, the Narrow Sea separating Westeros from Essos is narrow. People have been sailing back and forth for somewhere between two and six thousand years. It's just not much of a barrier in the books, so it seems a stretch to be all oh nooooes how could you possibly be there?! on a MU.

@Misadventure Pointless info-dump-esque thing. Ned Stark doesn't understand genetics and it's quite likely that George R. R. Martin doesn't either, but Jon actually works out fine -- some primates on Planetos, Valyrian humans notably, have the equivalent of a "dominant white" mutation. In the real world humans don't have this, but a lot of other creatures do. Horses have lots of different ones. So Rhaegar had one copy of the Valyrian white-hair gene and thus the phenotype. Lyanna Stark didn't have the gene, and Jon happened not to get it from Rhaegar, so Jon's brown or black haired depending on your show/book preferences. Interesting, in real world animals having two copies of a dominant white gene often results in neurological dysfunction. Which would explain why Targaryans are often batshit. Dominant white mutations are also often what coat-colour-genetics people call 'leaky', meaning that whatever colour the creature would be without the white gene covering it shows through -- you want a snowy white chicken, you breed recessive white because dominant white is likely to give you a brassy white or a ticked white. If Valyrian white acts that way with blonde, it would explain how generations of Lannisters could 'carry' it and be 'golden' rather than white blonde.

Probably coincidental, but amusing thoughts to me.

Derp

@il-volpe

That is actually pretty fascinating and now I am down a rabbit hole.