RL Anger

[Meg]

@ThatGuyThere

No, the answer to do nothing is a place of privileged response. I know it doesn't seem like much, but shit like this does happen to gays and lesbians every day, all the time. Microaggressions over and over and over. Literally, the answer to do nothing is the worst. @Catsmeow has a good answer that supports the couple without blaming/accusing the man in case of any of what you said.

But I will say, point blank, I think doing nothing is a bad call. Understandable? Yes. But as they say, when good people do nothing--.

[WTFE]

@SG said in RL Anger:

Is vaping anything like using a hooka?

No. Hookas still use smoke, after all, bringing all the extra bullshit from the smoke along with it: fine particulate carbon, tar, CO, etc. Vaping is far less harmful than anything involving combustion byproducts.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Meg
I disagree, if the dude actually says or does something, then yes light into him with extreme prejudice.
What are described was : well, it's hard to say what he was doing, which was my dilemma. He was smirking for most of the trip - but that could have just been his face.
As someone who has gotten shit many times in rl for "having a scowl on my face" when that is the honest resting form of my face I don't really condone the starting of shit for a look on the face unless it is known it is being done intentionally. Now if you have seen the dude before and his face is not like that normally then yes say some shit, but if you have not you are starting a random witch hunt because you don't like the way his face looks, you know the exact opposite of progress.

[WTFE]

@ThatGuyThere said in RL Anger:

This should shock no one but my resting facial expression leads people to think I am angry and upset when I am emotionally neutral or bored.

It's true. Here's his resting face:

[Catsmeow]

@ThatGuyThere

First -- This is my opinion it doesn't make other opinions wrong.

That's why I said that I would have engaged the couple in polite and friendly conversation. @Meg isn't suggesting lighting a person up for it. It is very hard to know what to do and to to do it. That's why I don't down put someone, but advice was asked for.

I am a firm believer that you do not cure hate with hate or anger with anger. So coming from a loving stance. You would embrace the couple with love (not literally - please don't touch strangers without permission). You talk to them and engage with them. You show your support in a non-hostile manner.

Like stated, no one can perceive a person's thoughts just by their looks; until they say or do something. You can be aware that it might exist, but we are not going to help cure prejudice by creating our own based on assumption and wrongdoing. However, there are many saying about evil wins when the good do nothing.

If someone is being mistreated in any form. I like to think we would offer support and protection in a banner of love and peace and calm. There are times you need to step up and state something is wrong when it is wrong. We as humanity all have the basic rights to live our lives without the force of hatred at us. As well, I don't think we should let someone face it alone.

Now in this situation we don't know the other person's thoughts. He could be smirking because he's thinking last week he and his partner got yelled at. He could be shaking his head and tsking to the event in his head and the couple just triggered the thought, but not at the couple. So if we embrace the couple in love and our support without brutality and aggression; then the other man will either take note and agree with us or he will take note and realize he's alone in his thoughts and keep them to himself. Either way the couple is spared and hey, maybe you make new friends.

[Paris]

@Meg said in RL Anger:

@Catsmeow
You cannot smoke weed in public in Nevada or California, either. You can possess it but not smoke/consume it on public property.

That never stops anyone in Nevada. Anywhere you go, it reeks. I'm a paraplegic who is also recovering from cancer, so I attract every well-meaning/profiteering potheads within visual range.

"So yeah, man, um, I'm taking signups for medical marijuana cards..."
"Thanks, but I don't smoke."
"But like you can sign up..."
"No, thank you!"
"But like pot is great for cancer and pain..."
"I know, but I'm really allergic to pot."
"You're allergic to pot?"
"Yes."
"But pot is natural!"
"Yeah, well, basil is natural and I'm allergic to that, too."
"Like, allergic to everything?"
"Yes."
"Edibles?"
"Yes."
"But there are low-thc strains-"
"Not the THC. The whole plant."
"But CBD-"
"That too."
"But CBD is good for cancer!"
"Yeah, it woulda been nice during chemo, but I like breathing, too."
"But CBD."
"All pot products give me anaphylaxis. Even hemp gives me anaphylaxis. I can't drink hemp milk. I can't even touch hemp twine. Yes, even CBD."
"But..."
"This is why I hate pot smokers, jfc. Also, you smell like cat piss. Even if I wasn't allergic, I wouldn't want to smell like cat piss."

I had this argument twice last night.

Edit: For some reason, even when I tell them I responded very well to chemo, I still get told to drop it in favor of natural alternatives. I have had to drop so many friends because of their insistence that I should risk anaphylaxis for CBD instead of chemo, alkaline water instead of chemo, turmeric instead of chemo, ginger and lemon instead of chemo, etc. This is all bad and deadly advice. Bit pot smokers are the WORST about it.

[Meg]

@Paris

it also stops no one in colorado, either, alas.

[Meg]

@ThatGuyThere said in RL Anger:

@Meg
I disagree, if the dude actually says or does something, then yes light into him with extreme prejudice.
What are described was : well, it's hard to say what he was doing, which was my dilemma. He was smirking for most of the trip - but that could have just been his face.
As someone who has gotten shit many times in rl for "having a scowl on my face" when that is the honest resting form of my face I don't really condone the starting of shit for a look on the face unless it is known it is being done intentionally. Now if you have seen the dude before and his face is not like that normally then yes say some shit, but if you have not you are starting a random witch hunt because you don't like the way his face looks, you know the exact opposite of progress.

That may be true, but you have to acknowledge that being able to 'do nothing' is coming from a place of privilege. You aren't part of that couple that are actively enduring that microaggression. (Or may not be a microaggression, but does it matter in terms of their mental health if it /looks/ exactly like every other microaggression? Does the intent matter to the impact?) That is all I am saying.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Meg said in RL Anger:

. You aren't part of that couple that are actively enduring that microaggression. (Or may not be a microaggression,

This is exactly my point dude might not be doing anything you even acknowledge this, why is his mental health any less valuable then the couples. And to me yes intent definitely matters, if someone acts to hurt another persons feelings I am all for blaming that person, if a persons feelings randomly get hurt by an action with no malice, (or in the actual situation being discussed some dude who might have been completely zoned out not even noticing the couple) then I my reaction is a solid 'meh don't care."
I in no way support any sort of discrimination based on sexual orientation, gender, or race but right now the sum total of what we know about the situation is dude on a train had a face @Arkandel didn't like.
We don't even know if the couple in question noticed dude or were in any way at all affected by it.

[Meg]

@ThatGuyThere said in RL Anger:

why is his mental health any less valuable then the couples.

If you truly don't understand why speaking up (even without DIRECTLY SPEAKING TO THE MAN) because their mental health in /this exact situation/ is /yes more FRAGILE not VALUABLE/ then-- I sincerely can't add anything else to this conversation.

[surreality]

@Arkandel said in RL Anger:

There's also this third guy in a seat facing them who... well, it's hard to say what he was doing, which was my dilemma. He was smirking for most of the trip - but that could have just been his face - and I'm almost but not quite sure he was tsk'ing and shaking his head while looking at them... but I could be wrong. The idea I was getting without being 100% certain is he was expressing his disapproval for their gay-ness in passive aggressive ways, but he never actually confronted them or said anything in any way.

There are some conditions that could cause this, also. While I don't recall what the heck it was she had, one of my great aunts did what you're describing almost exactly: twisted lips, tiny jerks of head shakes like a pinched-off-prissy shake of the head in a 'no', muttering and almost... hissing? (Which could definitely sound like a tsk-tsk-tsking noise.) She had trouble keeping eye contact, also, when this was kicking off, but... yeah. There are things out there like this that might be something completely different than what one would immediately guess at.

[Paris]

@surreality said in RL Anger:

.There are things out there like this that might be something completely different than what one would immediately guess at.

Yes, it could be, but it sadly usually is not.

[surreality]

@Paris Regardless, if someone had lit into my great aunt for being a bigot (which she wasn't) because of muscle tics she had no conscious control over and often made her cry about the shame and humiliation she felt at being seen in public like that, they would have had to contend with a mouthful of my normally non-violent fist.

[Meg]

@surreality

But no one in this thread suggested at any point lighting into someone. Like, at all. But there is a big difference between that and doing nothing.

[surreality]

@Meg What would you suggest doing in a case like my great aunt's? Or of someone with Tourette Syndrome? Etc.?

Do you scold these people for essentially existing? Stare at them? Tell them what they're doing is not OK?

[Meg]

@surreality

I did make my suggestion. If I thought that she was expressing disapproval for their relationship, I would have asked politely, calmly 'Is there a problem, ma'am?'

I have actually come around to thinking that @Catsmeow actually has a better answer of talking to the couple directly and engaging them without engaging the other person.

Do you think it would have been rude to ask your great aunt 'Is there a problem, ma'am?'

I know people with tics. My sister has cerebral palsy that gives her muscle spasms. I'm not saying this is the case with everyone, but I can't imagine my sister's mental health would be worse off for being asked if there was a problem. (And I would hope if she did have a problem that wasn't related to the couple, she would speak up and say something!) Or she might have been confused at the question and said no.

But even that little gesture does something.

Let's ask this another way. As a woman, I face microaggressions daily from men. If a man is staring at my chest, do I say nothing? Do I just accept it because I am a part of this world and I am the stupid one for getting offended and upset and putting me in a place where I feel threatened or uncomfortable? I mean, he might legitimately have zoned out and just started staring at my chest without realizing it. Should I do nothing?

[surreality]

@Meg said in RL Anger:

@surreality
I have actually come around to thinking that @Catsmeow actually has a better answer of talking to the couple directly and engaging them without engaging the other person.

This is a much, much better idea. Positive support is a full positive.

Do you think it would have been rude to ask your great aunt 'Is there a problem, ma'am?'

Yes, actually. She passed in her 90s over a decade ago. She grew up in a time in which she had to fear being placed in an old-school asylum if people thought something was 'wrong' with her, even something much less than that. She was typically in tears any time she was in public, or near it.

Let's ask this another way. As a woman, I face microaggressions daily from men. If a man is staring at my chest, do I say nothing? Do I just accept it because I am a part of this world and I am the stupid one for getting offended and upset and putting me in a place where I feel threatened or uncomfortable? I mean, he might legitimately have zoned out and just started staring at my chest without realizing it. Should I do nothing?

Completely different issue, and I'm saying this as somebody who was wearing a DDD cup by age 13 and is now in her 40s and has experienced plenty of that. Socialization and culture can change, and that behavior is within the person's control. Physical things that someone cannot change or control about themselves are not in the same category by a considerable margin and should not be conflated.

[ThatGuyThere]

@Meg said in RL Anger:

If you truly don't understand why speaking up (even without DIRECTLY SPEAKING TO THE MAN

See this I do not understand at all. If he is in the wrong (which if he was smirking at them in disapproval, then he is definitely 100 percent, with out a shadow of a doubt wrong) he should definitely be spoken directly to, if not there is not need to speak.
You seem to say there is a need to play cheerleader for the couple, which i would not so, not for a hetro couple not for a same sex one, not for strangers not for my best friends. One of my firmest, most steadfast rules is other peoples relationships are not my affair.
As far as talking to the couple, they are on public transportation, I know I don't want to talk to anyone while on public transportation about any topic let alone a relationship I am in. I want to sit there looking straight forward waiting for my stop.

[Meg]

@surreality

Then I willingly admit that I would have been in the wrong in your great aunt's case. I will definitely change how I approach these situations in the future to more positively engage with the couple (in a way that doesn't even have to be about their relationship since no one even said that). But I still think and will die on the hill that good people shouldn't do nothing. Understandable, yes. I am not saying @Arkandel is a bad person. But doing nothing is not good.

Edit to emphasize: I do think you are a good person, Ark, and respect you a lot.

[surreality]

@Meg I'm 100% behind showing support; I think that's all positive.

I am just really uneasy with calling people out unless it's obviously a case of deliberate behavior. Maybe it's because I grew up with my grandmother and great aunt, maybe it's because my mom worked as an occupational therapist for kids with a dizzying array of difficulties, I dunno, I just have seen too many things that could easily be read as 'acting funny' or 'looking mean' or in the case of someone with Tourette Syndrome, for instance, using a lot of harsh language or slurs or profanity, when there's absolutely no animus or intent to cause harm behind it, and there's often a lot of guilt and self-consciousness already associated with all of these things that makes it pretty hard.

Usually, a little careful observation can tell any of those things from deliberate asshat behavior, but a quick glance or two really just isn't enough if it's already really vague. And the whole 'being stared at' thing can be extremely uncomfortable for people who have any sort of issue to contend with -- or, hell, anybody who doesn't, even.

Deliberately being an asshat is not a condition, and is well within someone's control. Still, I'd suggest the 'support the target' approach, in part because nothing pisses off a condescending, judgmental bully harder than realizing they aren't the one who has the perceived majority or backup. That's a big damn deal to the tsk-tsk crowd, and in supporting the one they're trying to 'other', you're denying them the support they're craving by doing so at the same time.