RL Anger

Ganymede

I'd say accusing someone of doing something constitutes an attack, YMMV.

You're making me agree with @Kanye-Qwest on this one. I think you need to re-read what @kk wrote:

I believe that you argued that threads shouldn't be derailed over this stuff and yet here you are four days later on another thread still complaining that people didn't like that word being used.

I also don't recall anyone outright saying or even implying that people have to be offended by cunt.

I don't think @kk's assessment in the first part is correct, but I believe the second is. In either case, I don't see a personal attack in there at all.

People can be mistaken about what a person is or is not doing, and I don't believe that is, rhetorically or otherwise, a personal attack.

Ghost

@Meg said in RL Anger:

I would say, as someone believing in a universal morality, that telling someone to kill themselves is not a moral action

I agree 100%. I cant think of any actual moral (extreme circumstances withstanding, such as having an alien xenomorph about to punch through your sternum) situation where it's okay to tell someone to kill themselves. Geez, especially after that girl was found guilty of manslaughter, was it? No. I do not recommend.

I was just saying that it's really up to the person who says it as to whether or not they feel sorry for it. How they take the personal result for saying something like that to another human being is their cross to bear. Like: a person telling someone who abused them to kill themselves, they might not feel one bit remorseful about saying it, whole others, 2 weeks later, might think "I was angry...but shouldn't have said that.".

It's all part of the subjective life experience catalogue.

I think every human being has a list of things they've said to others that they wish they could take back, and a list of things they feel perfectly justified having said. In the end, it's all about knowing yourself and training yourself to not say things that you don't mean.

surreality

@Misadventure The pain meds initially made me read that in such a way as to think, "...but if they have already killed the children before, how will they get them back?!"

...on the subject of shit I hate, these pills. Jesus. HATE. So much textwobble.

I remember someone going on in ye olden WORA days to someone who had a near fatal heart attack that they hoped they'd have another and it would finish the job. Frankly, when someone knows that, and specifically says something like that, it is pretty fucking horrible, as it is much more targeted and specific to someone's actual life, experienced trauma, and circumstance.

@Ganymede One of the quotes in question was in fact quoted,and discussed. There's already some reasonable agreement about that. Hence the '...' about why it's being brought up again. Basically, she's trying to pull a cheap 'gotcha', as I expressed irritation that the game-related bitching and peeves thread was getting derailed on the regular with RL social justice arguments for pages on end, and I'm frankly just not inclined to put up with anybody's petty grudgewanky bullshit today.

Roz

@surreality I have to agree with @Ganymede that I think you're misreading @kk's post pretty damn hard to get "personal attack" out of it.

surreality

@Roz I really don't. It reeks of grudgewanky bullshit to me, and 'gotcha' headgame nonsense.

I have zero qualms calling that kind of behavior out when I spot it.

Ganymede

@surreality said in RL Anger:

Basically, she's trying to pull a cheap 'gotcha', as I expressed irritation that the game-related bitching and peeves thread was getting derailed on the regular with RL social justice arguments for pages on end, and I'm frankly just not inclined to put up with anybody's petty grudgewanky bullshit today.

As far as I can tell, the reason why this back-and-forth has been going for so long is because, apparently, no one's willing to put up with anybody's petty grudgewanky bullshit. This bullshit seems to include innocuous, but erroneous statements, and the mere whiff of disagreement.

I don't often hold up a sign and suggest someone chill out, but we're at the point where @Ghost is pausing and attempting to be constructive in a thread titled "RL Anger."

Meg

@Ghost Obviously it is up to each person whether they feel bad about it or not. No one can /make/ someone feel something.

But, I can say that in my philosophical approach to life, that I think someone who doesn't feel remorse or guilt about doing something bad is a bad person. I.e. if you do something immoral and you don't feel remorse, you are an immoral person. Or a sociopath.

Pandora

I continue to reply because I continue to be discussed. Be the change you want to see.

I do not ascribe to a universal morality. I do not believe in karma. I believe that what I say today can and will be used against me in the court of public opinion. I accept that others will sometimes not agree with the things I say or how I say them, but since I have friends that are for the most part quite nice and pleasant and friendly in public but have been known to say some horrible shit about people behind their backs, I can and do and always have taken some measure of pride in the fact that everyone knows where they stand with me. That might not have value with others, but it means the world to me.

@ me all you like with your tsk-tsk and fingerwagging and aspersions about my character; I clearly don't mind, right? Else I wouldn't have brought up the year-old 'kill yourself' comment to make the point that sometimes I am an asshole, but certainly not all the time. Differing opinions are worth noting, and if it galls you that I have a different moral compass than you, well, that's only bothering one of us - the one that isn't me.

Also, and this one is really more for me than trying to kill @WTFE with alcohol - I really enjoy talking about me, and how special and different I am from everyone else, etc. This 'this is why you're awful' conversation is remarkably similar to the 'this is why I like you' conversations I have with my friends and literally almost every random stranger that has ever private-messaged me on MSB.

Thenomain

@saosmash said in RL Anger:

FUCK THIS DINNER TABLE.

Don’t be such a leg.

Ganymede

@Meg said in RL Anger:

No one can /make/ someone feel something.

Maybe you ought to re-think hopping onto a World of Darkness game.

Meg

@Pandora

No, it doesn't gall me. I don't believe in relative morality, simple and clean. You do. Our philosophical outlooks will never align, and that's what it is. Neither of us can ever be wrong or right, but now you know where you stand with me, too.

ETA @Ganymede that I am scared to ask why? well, I guess with vamps and stuff having superpowers to control other minds--.

surreality

@Ganymede Agreed. That is a fair enough point.

There's just really no purpose for her post at all other than an attempt to call me a hypocrite in a roundabout way, and unfortunately there's no real way around that basic fact.

That people had, on the whole, chilled the fuck out and started to understand where others were coming from and that there's a lot more consensus there than not? Was nice. Is nice. Had she not gotten to that part yet and hence the error? Sure. But maybe that's a lesson to take away, too -- to find out what's going on a little more before firing off the snarkbombs.

Really, though, people like to play rhetorical games like that on forums and like head games among friends RL or on games or in relationships, it is something I just do not have patience for on even the best day.

Thenomain

@Ganymede said in RL Anger:

@Meg said in RL Anger:

No one can /make/ someone feel something.

Maybe you ought to re-think hopping onto a World of Darkness game.

Are you kidding me? Someone who can recognize the manipulation of another player and point it out is sure to make many frenemies. You and I should know.

Ghost

@Meg said in RL Anger:

@Ghost Obviously it is up to each person whether they feel bad about it or not. No one can /make/ someone feel something.

But, I can say that in my philosophical approach to life, that I think someone who doesn't feel remorse or guilt about doing something bad is a bad person. I.e. if you do something immoral and you don't feel remorse, you are an immoral person. Or a sociopath.

I totally respect that. I'm kind of in the same ballpark mentality-wise, though differing opinions on morality really, really make it hard to balance sometimes. Which is why I think there is so much strife going on socially these days. Aside from a very specific list of things being considered pretty much immoral across the board (yet even cannibalism is forgiven in a survival context so long as the cannibalize isn't murdered to make it possible), there are a number of terms/actions where the goal post keeps moving.

Does rude mean the same as wrong? Is rude strong enough to be considered immoral? What if it's rude for a good cause? Who determines if the cause is justified? What is forgivable to one person but not the next? (rhetorical questions)

There's a lot of subjectivity at play, which makes it difficult.

Ganymede

@surreality said in RL Anger:

There's just really no purpose for her post at all other than an attempt to call me a hypocrite in a roundabout way, and unfortunately there's no real way around that basic fact.

So what?

That people had, on the whole, chilled the fuck out and started to understand where others were coming from and that there's a lot more consensus there than not? Was nice. Is nice. Had she not gotten to that part yet and hence the error? Sure. But maybe that's a lesson to take away, too -- to find out what's going on a little more before firing off the snarkbombs.

And you needed to be the one to teach her that lesson? Is that it?

Really, though, people like to play rhetorical games like that on forums and like head games among friends RL or on games or in relationships, it is something I just do not have patience for on even the best day.

This entire fucking inane conversation started when someone knee-jerked a word that many, but not all, people find offensive. It was like the house was collapsing. When we figured out that, maybe, that person didn't mean to insult someone mortally, things died down. But then someone else said something that another person found insulting, and then the house collapsed again. And when that was settled, here we go again.

You don't like people playing on your phone? Then keep it real, if you want, but you are becoming part of the problem.

Ghost

@Ganymede said in RL Anger:

Maybe you ought to re-think hopping onto a World of Darkness game

Don't do that again while I'm drinking water, ya shite.

BRB finding paper towels.

surreality

@Ganymede Maybe you should direct your ire toward the person who came in and started slinging the shit, because that wasn't me. I have the same right to respond with an objection to being called a hypocrite as any given person on the forum does to being called a cunt, and I will not be chastised for doing so as if I'm in the wrong for doing it.

Kanye Qwest

@surreality said in RL Anger:

in order to sling some shade around in the most spectacularly clueless fashion I've witnessed in a few days, which is saying a lot around here.

This is way more of a personal attack than what they did. If you are trying to escalate nastiness, cool, go and do. If you aren't trying, just saying from an outsider perspective: you are escalating nastiness

Meg

@Ghost Yes, agreed. There is often ambiguous and not-clear-cut situations. There are places where context matters. I don't think the goal posts /move/, per se, except in ways that society evolves. But the base morality is unchanging. Harming another person, mentally, physically, financially--. That is where I believe all morality stems from, in my own beliefs.

Now, if we're going to discuss what has the most impact, we can start dissecting whether intent, the action itself, or the outcome is what matters to the morality of a thing. (Personally, I believe the action itself is what is weighed foremost in considering whether an action is moral. Outcome and intent /do/ matter, but depending on the outcome and intent, it's going to vary depending.)

Auspice