Posts made by Arkandel

Social recognition is the prime motivator for the hobby, I'd say.

But that's a goal, not a method.

@icanbeyourmuse said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Arkandel They tried to stop her IC, yes. Like I forget what happened exactly bu I think someone got hurt and my bit was tying to help and the person was like 'LEt the proper people handle it' and ordered her to stop (the other bit had a position of power over mine). So, I was like.. What is the point of being in a plot if you're not going to, you know, get involved in what is being laid out?

Those are the worst players. There are mitigating circumstances based on theme but they are, generally speaking, the worst players if you don't count the bannable kinds of assholes.

It happens though, I agree. "Yes, I see what happened here in this plot. Okay, I'll now take it over and put it behind closed doors so the important people can deal with it. Thanks everyone else". I'd like to say it's up for the ST to take care of it but it's more complicated than that unfortunately - I know I usually have too much on my plate to really pay enough attention and catch that sort of thing, for instance.

But yeah, fuck'em.

@icanbeyourmuse said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Arkandel In a plot on another game I had someone /actively/ trying to stop my bit from interacting with a plot. Multiple times I was 'Look! Something weird is going on!' not in those words but purposefully trying to draw attention to it. I guess it amounts to people waiitng for things to directly happen to their bits?

Can you rephrase that? You mean they tried to stop your PC IC? OOC? Was it during the scene or while it happened?

And @Crysta, that's quite true... the upgrade path is a bit skewed because the cost/benefit curve scales really badly (you spend a ton of effort to improve very little).

But in a non-PvP game why does it matter? It just seems like a massive waste of effort trying to become the best when XP is inexhaustible and you can't even compare dick sizes with the other guy because that gets you nothing, you know?

@Roz said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

Oh yeah, when players do it of their own accord it's even better! But if people are playing the whole cool cucumber game, it's totally fair to call for a check. (Then again, Unflappable Cool Cucumbers are like one of my least favorite things ever on games. You know the ones I'm talking about: players who never want to lose face at all in any way by being less than Perfectly Cool.)

But see, in the context of plot participation it's not just about composure; what I am after isn't so much freaking out, it's engagement, for which there are very few metrics. I'd know things are on the right track if I get a raised brow and a "fascinating" for instance, but if there's a relative OOC radio silence after a scene is over other than for thank-yous (which is the norm) then it's really hard to know how much things worked or to what degree. Am I engaging these characters? Are they getting enough leads to chase after once the PrP is done? Is it interesting for them?

I do make a point of asking, but you should know... actionable feedback is rare.

Anyway, my personal benchmark for success is introducing story seeds that generate RP after I'm done with a scene.

@Packrat said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

One thing that I do feel hurts the game is that athletics and survival are both combat skills, meaning they are expensive and also generic amoungst people who are going to go off on Adventure Stuff. Essentially it means anyone who is liable to head off on a quest is going to have the same skillset, just some will be outright better or worse than others. Not ideal.

That's true. But there's truly no way around it; roughly the same things combat and war naturally require are key for adventuring in general. If I run, say, a dungeon-crawl type of affair then the skills required will overlap with the stuff soldiers buy.

But it goes beyond that. For instance I was trying to do some experimental stuff and see how much interest exists in it; there's no template (or at least none I'm aware of) for it, so I was making shit up as I went along, and one of those things was to have an improvised weapons duel. The idea was to not have everyone show up in their favorite super expensive weapons and do their standard super optimized rolls but they had to enter a yard and fight each other with anything they could conceal on their persons - what I imagined was getting folks creative with hair pins, their own clothes used offensively, steel balls carried in a pocket and used as projectiles, hand to hand combat... that sort of thing.

But that didn't happen. Perhaps the onus was on me to talk about it with participants before the fact and get them riled up, I'm not sure. On top of it someone complained after they lost because their opponent used a practice sword instead of a real sword which was a headache either way; one because it was supposed to be an opportunity to pose something somewhat new, and the other because 'who won' didn't mean anything. Just the fact people were disappointed afterwards was a let down, you know?

@Pyrephox said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

That is a thing to consider. There's a careful balance to be pondered between OOC equality-of-agency and IC inequality-of-theme. Someone who apps in a hardscrabble peddler of common birth /should not/ have the same access to, say, alaricite as a Great Lord on a systemic level. But, just as true, there should be things that the commoner /can/ do that the Great Lord can't, because being a Great Lord (or any noble) should come with some real consequences for acting in a manner befitting of the nobility.

I would say at this point in the game there is great urgency based on rank (High Lords have a huge advantage) and soldier ability. The more you stray out of these two niches the least involved you can be in cool things.

But the other thing is, there's a lot of redundancy in agency as well. For instance my character got a cool secret and then was shared a neat also top-secret @clue; I thought I'd be able to milk both for some roleplay... until I went out there and tried to discuss them both. Four out of four PCs he went to confide in and involve in them already knew everything about them, plus some. So what I thought was important going to prove to be great leverage to get roleplay out of forming alliances were proven to be duds.

There are many characters around who literally know all the things - it's not just XP and skills, it's information, political positioning, resources, you name it.

There's a certain sort of player - and I see this a lot in video game discussions, too - who feel absolutely compelled to optimize their character and acquisition of resources whenever possible, even if doing so makes the game actively unfun for them. I don't know where it comes from, but I've seen it plenty of times.

But I am one of those players. I absolutely want to optimize my character, I enjoy it. But - again, for example - when he went on a drive to try and recruit help for his pet projects (and make resources to improve his gear, retainers, etc) that meant running IC events showcasing the benefits of being offered this support. This is hard work that I enjoyed putting in, but it's also... hard work, right? Yet I wouldn't change that, even when I know others are just sending out messengers to do the same thing in a couple of paragraphs; yes, it would save me the trouble but it would also deprive me of the roleplay.

Then what the fuck would I do with the gear and the stuff if I'm not playing the game in the mean time? Woohoo, my sword glows red now, yay.

@Pyrephox said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:

@Arkandel The XP issue is actually one of the things that particularly concerns me, design-wise, moving forward. Especially since with the training thing, people who have more money can open an /even larger/ gap in progression between the haves and have nots. It's definitely a concern, I think. Especially since some of the things that SHOULD matter (conflict of interest, other duties) for those in high places don't really matter - a High Lord doesn't actually have any of their IC time taken up by their duties, so they're free to go out and smash things on the battlefield, hang out in the slums making friends with peasants, join the Faith, research all the magics, etc.

Well, I'm sure the AP system was designed (at least in part) to address the multitasking thing, for sure. In a strange way though it will, at least in some ways, actually impact the have-nots more; for instance if it costs me a ton of AP I am least inclined to share my @clues with newbie #2871 that I just met.

But the thing is, it's really hard to systematize these things because in some ways they are working as intended. You pointed out one way; someone with the relevant Teaching skill can convey massive XP discounts, but only get a limited number of training sessions to use per week, so obviously those with resources or allies can benefit more, which isn't unreasonable. People with cash and favors to call are supposed to have an advantage, right?

There's some gaming the system obviously. For instance folks mass-messaging everyone they've ever met then asking for support with their tasks yields zero RP - it's simply a resources grab. It's nothing new for people to mistake cause and effect (the in-game carrots are supposed to generate roleplay, players aren't supposed to treat roleplaying as the barrier between them and the carrots!) but it's more prominent on Arx due to its size.

Meanwhile, the "I'm too cool for school" crap is ALWAYS an issue, and it's really annoying. I'm not keen on people who have their characters have hysterics or breakdowns and disrupt plots, but damn, wo/man, show some human emotions. I remember being in one plot where the GM was posing some really great, spooky as hell stuff, and I was enjoying my character having some significant reactions to that...but the other character was just like, "Eh." And then I felt silly.

Yes, that's basically it. The ST needs to enjoy themselves too; my character isn't in the scene, the only entertainment is in the interaction between the story and characters participating in it; if they're largely uninterested in engaging then I am not having much fun either. But come on, every PrP can't be about armies trying to obliterate everyone - if we have to one-up the stakes every time then clearly this isn't going to work out... something has to give. Plus it leaves entire thematic tropes completely uninvolved - crime, horror, swashbuckling adventuring, etc.

You know what the curious thing is though? I had a conversation recently with a member of my House who was complaining OOC that he has nothing to do, doesn't know what to do... he's just feeling blah. In the mean time he avoids playing about anything fun; he almost always joins RP, by his own admission, when there are people he can farm @randomscenes from, plays to improve his gear and gather resources to trade and improve his gear, etc. So essentially this guy plays the game in the least entertaining way possible then he's puzzled it's not engaging him. Which is the flipside of this whole situation, and a real head-scratcher for me.

I don't know if this is a rant or a request for comments but here goes.

I've been running PrPs on Arx which has been fun; for starters there are always people (so...many...people) which means I never had to postpone things because no one showed up. For another the system is super easy to use - for the uninitiated there's a @check command which is the equivalent of +roll/+dice on other MU*, and since there is no official mechanical system you just roll whichever stats you want, such as say, dexterity+athletics... and that's it. It couldn't be simpler, which was a godsend for me since I figured it'd focus people on posing.

However!

This is hardly an Arx-specific thing but I really wish some players would stop trying so hard to be nonchalant and cool as a cucumber about everything that's happening. Building atmosphere while dealing with a large number of people, most of whom are OOC unknown to the runner, is tricky to begin with without having characters show up literally yawning about the possibility of assassination attempts and demonic invasions. On top of this I introduced challenges (tied to metaplot after discussions with staff) to which OOC response was somewhat lukewarm - it's as if as long as it doesn't involve apocalyptic-level events that can wipe civilization if they aren't stopped it's not worth their time.

This is a pretty hard issue to solve. I don't know that it can happen on the ST level. If constant escalation is the only way to keep things interesting that's a dead end plot-wise.

The other thing is... it's no secret Arx has an emerging dino issue since people - especially ones present in alpha - have a crapton of XPs and gear, but public scenes even now consist very clearly of the haves and have nots. The same challenge ("climb a wall") is barely made or failed by some while others score as much as three times the necessary difficulty they need to achieve it. This effect is only going to become more prominent and it will increasingly turn newbies and casual players irrelevant; it's disheartening to play a healer when the person next to you is a better healer but also a superb swordsman and expert politician who's also a High Lord with a glowing sword that talks and solves crossword puzzles.

Overall the activity level is so high things continue to be fun, but I'm curious to see if others have ran into similar challenges. Perhaps this is just what I've encountered so far and it's more anecdotal than I think it is. For the time being what I'll do is limit the scope of upcoming PrPs and aim them at smaller, more focused groups to see if that works better.

Your username is the most 90s thing I've seen this week.

(Not a RfK player, I just wanted to say this )

@faraday said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

@Arkandel That template works great for NPCs, but PCs? "Ok, your char can't really hang out and participate in most of the social scenes because you're a wanted criminal mastermind. People are likely to take your IC actions personally and think you're a jerk. We just need you to pop in every now and again with a brilliant plan for the heroes to foil, then disappear again. Sound cool?"

It's not really surprising to me that almost nobody goes for it.

I'm not either. Villains probably won't work as fully playable every day PCs; they would as alts used sporadically to serve a plot purpose or as NPCs.

@faraday said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

I think it's evidence of people viewing MUSHes as games rather than stories. Very few folks sit down to play a game thinking, "Yeah I think I'm gonna lose today. That sounds like fun." But in contrast, very few authors sit down to write a story thinking, "Oh yeah, my hero is just going to win, win win. ALL THE WINNING." I think MU*s are much more interesting when they're treated as stories and there's a blend of winning and losing, like @Seraphim73 said. But that takes a particular type of players, staff and environment to make work.

Yeah, agreed. People treat MU* objectives as quests in a video game - you don't really ever fail them, do you? No, you succeed. You win in the end - and the game is all about you, your perspective, even in an MMORPG; sure, you might actually be Hunter #2768525 but the way this is happening you are the center of the universe.

MU* need to adjust to this reality sometimes though because yes, sometimes players are horribad but it's also the case they are often given very little actual agency in how stories turn out.

For superhero MU* in particular I am simply puzzled because we have a template for them and it's all over every superhero comic ever made; the villains make brilliant plans and the heroes beat them... for a while. This part is strange, you'd think it'd be easy for games to simply run with what's worked for the last 70 some years for the exact kinds of characters they're portraying.

@Roz said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

OH HILARIOUS I almost forgot who you were. I need to make a mental note somewhere.

I would love it if MSB let us keep notes on people's profiles. Or if we could list our alt history somehow so others can mouseover our avatar and figure out who we are.

Sure, there are the 'playlist' threads but those aren't easy to just use as a reference on the fly.

@Roz said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

My statement in no way argued that unethical staff doesn't cause drama. Also, PvP is more than just PvP death. PvP brings with it an intrinsically higher level of IC fuckery because players are literally being pitted into competition with each other.

Yes, basically this. The vast majority of PvP-related drama is anticipation (whether true or, quite commonly, false) of the act rather than its fallout.

People just don't want to lose and they respond to their IC enemies with OOC disdain, forming camps and demonizing each other. Whether they ever actually clash is nearly irrelevant once the toxicity settles.

@Nein said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

@Roz I probably run in different mu subcultures, because I've rarely heard of PvP causing drama.

What?

@Ghost said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

Edit: I didn't mention straight male RPers because the amount of rp I get with other male players/characters that didnt involve passes for TS is pretty remarkable. I assumed straight males were like HOLY FUCK GAY COOTIES or DOESNT HAVE VAGINA/DONT CARE.

Frankly I have a pet theory that some games are somehow aimed for a certain demographic and no one tells you these things when you sign up.

I've been in MU* where the male/female ratio is tremendously skewed for some reason and it's open season on whichever gender is in short supply, and I've felt either like a piece of digital meat or completely invisible for no obvious reason accordingly.

@Sunny said in Game Concept: Paying for rare things:

@Arkandel

Most lords and ladies games do actually charge for title. Or, well, everywhere I've played. Usually it's in the form of an XP bonus for a commoner, though sometimes the title itself costs. Or something associated with it does.

The problem with this is that the cost is (typically) an one-off; you get a fixed amount of XP in CGen and that's it. But the benefits from playing a noble are permanent - and very difficult to quantify. How much XP is the privilege of birthright worth, for example?

Another issue with having special stuff is players try to find ways out of what could/should be severe social consequences simply because they aren't played out. For instance a popular player decides to go with a 'former Seer' but no one shuns them because of it, and staff is too busy to run plot for him (or it's the kind of plot which essentially showers them with more attention than drawbacks). Or, and this is pretty common, a PC from a restricted faction with special stuff befriends/is sleeping with a 'normal' character and shares some of those special toys with them - but as it's done in secret there is no fallout.

That's why I proposed just biting the bullet and have staff hand-pick their best players for stuff they're interested in playing or just plain having the roles wide open. Make a choice - either sacrifice rarity or accept the allegation of favoritism - and run the best game you can, or you'll spend all your time trying to quantify the unquantifiable or trying to play whack'a'mole with players cheating the system. The only way to win that game is to not play.

@ThatGuyThere said in Game Concept: Paying for rare things:

I agree with your general point but wouldn't a higher rank in a military setting be an inherent advantage? After all the high ranks can order the lower ranks around, that is one of the basic tenets of military discipline.

If we go there then Lords and Ladies games would have a hell of a wake-up call.

@Three-Eyed-Crow said in Fires of Hope: A Star Wars Story:

The first place my brain went was WoT, but that's only because Robert Jordan broke my spirit in oh so many ways.

I never played there. I knew several of their staff and players though.

@Nein said in Superhero Games: Quest For Villain PCs:

Does anyone know the reasoning behind this, or when this became popular? I'm assuming it's to prevent people from forming Mr. Sinister's Harem of Mutant Wives or General Zod's plot for the longest possible character squatting in internet history, but that's almost along the lines of "cutting off the hands of the musicians".

For starters I've no idea why it's done. I haven't played comic MU* almost at all.

Why I would have it like that? It's because I wouldn't want to see the Red Skull doing random bar scenes or hanging out with random people just because I have the character, I'm bored, and I want to play him. Overuse breeds familiarity and the character becomes less menacing if you've met him fifty times, or a joke if that's 50 times you had to listen through his racist bite-less tirades.

@Three-Eyed-Crow When it comes to things I want to keep rare in a game my preference is to use quality control. There's no better (perhaps no other) way to do it without sacrificing their rarity since you will get players apping for things they consider 'special'.

And since you will have to limit concepts somehow and most likely you will be blamed for showing favoritism anyway you might as well get good players for them. You need Elders? Hand-pick who gets to play them. Then continue to monitor their actions for signs of inactivity or abuse anyway because no matter who you pick you'll eventually make a mistake.

But paying extra for it won't work. For example if I want to play a goddamn Jedi that's what I'll do, even if he can't swat a fly with his crappy lightsaber that won't chop through hot butter.

@icanbeyourmuse It now warns you if you try it. If there's an +event already at 18:00, even if it's private and you're not invited, and you try to set an +event at 17:00 it'll let you know.