Posts made by Arkandel

@Sunny said:

it sounds a lot like players would need to jump through hoops to run plot with a potential sphere-wide impact

Exactly the opposite. While we aren't running spheres as such, if someone wants to run a plot that impacts a single global faction (vampires, werewolves, etc), it's a review plot. Which means they put in a notification to let us know what they're doing in general, and then do it. They never actually have to discuss it with staff unless it hits one of the points that knocks it to approval, which means before it gets run, someone has to sign off on it. I have a little template for folks to fill out. It doesn't ask for a lot of information, just enough to know if I need to address anything with the player before they go forth and conquer.

Alright, do you care to go over that point? I think the vagueness is caused by this:

@Sunny said:

Staff are players as well; they are welcome to run player run plots as a player as much as anyone else. But only staff is able to run game level plot. It cannot be done by players, for a reward or otherwise.

And then compounded by this:

@MisAdventure said:

You want to run a Monster-of-the-Week on your player bit? Fine, go ahead, that's what PRP's are for.

Or this:

@MisAdventure said:

It can take weeks or months to build up a really good sphere/meta plot arc. In that interim, player run plots help to fill that void while staff work up the next round of Dire Threat to Everything. PRP's helped to keep people active and interested in plot stuffs between large arcs.

The discrepancy there is that, regardless of the presented ethical issue here regarding rewarding staff for running plot (which is a game in which I have no skin) I don't see player-ran stories in this way, as fillers or one-shots to keep players going between long staff-ran arcs. For instance my story on SHH was 13-scene large, the one I'm running on Eldritch just went over that number; they're by no means disposable one-shots.

Nor are (or should) staff-plots always be enormous spectacles with a dozen people fighting to save the galaxy - in fact that's a systemic problem plaguing staff scenes for years, since they're often either overcrowded with everyone struggling to squeeze themselves in this official metaplotty thing (then complaining about the spam and/or amount of impact they can have) or feel excluded since they didn't make it in (then complaining staff only runs plots for their friends, leading to the aforementioned us-versus-them mentality).

Does that mean staff plot is a bad idea? Of course not. It just means it comes with its own logistical challenges and meta-considerations about matters such as plot availability, scene setups and record-keeping for newer players to find it easy (or even possible!) to hop on later on. Just like PrPs have their own difficulties (avoiding red tape, supporting STs with mechanics since not all are good at rules-lawyering, etc).

But neither is inherently superior or even preferable to the other. So alright, you don't want to incentivize it for staff due to ethics, which I disagree but can work with, and you don't want to use XP as an incentive which is an argument that has been made before, since you attribute the decline of staff-ran plot to player-ran stories being rewarded, although that seems like an empirical correlation since it's happened on some games but not on others.

What I'd be interested in here is seeing the alternative you plan to use in order to incentivize plot-running since historically alternatives to XP haven't yielded very good results; for example recognition ("ST of the week!") has produced antipathy or backfired by devolving into a popularity contest for example. XP has its flaws but it requires minimal staff resources, can be quantified and it's easy to keep track of or adjust over time.

@Miss-Demeanor I find the idea of hard separation between staff and players to be a regression.

I haven't staffed ever since I was on TR; that's partially because I dislike the limitations that poses me (suddenly all my characters are 'staff alts') and because I don't need to be in order to help the games I've been playing. If I had been staffing on SHH I wouldn't have ran a different plot arc - I'd have done the exact same one. I wouldn't have spoken to Ruin less or more about it for brainstorming - I'd have done it for the same amount. On Eldritch I'm arguably running a story that's even more drastic in how it affects the overall spheres that it touches than most staff plots, yet I never felt @Eerie whom I ran it by felt it should had its scope limited.

Now, when it comes to systems, everyone can come up with their own. As @Coin says, and I agree, ultimately a game-runner runs the kind of environment they see fit and that's it. However by bringing it to these radiant forums it's all going to get debated anyway, which is what (I hope) we're doing bringing our own ideas, points of view and methods to the table.

My method is this: Define a goal then figure out the most efficient system that achieves it.

If the goal is to generate as many thematic stories of high quality and offer them to players then I don't agree what is being discussed here achieves it. There is too much red tape in the way (it sounds a lot like players would need to jump through hoops to run plot with a potential sphere-wide impact), arbitrary divides between staff and players (which are unwanted in collaborative gaming since they generate an us-versus-them culture), treats symptoms rather than causes (staff-alts run plot to get the same rewards as players is viewed as a problem, rather than than that the restriction is artificial in the first place, but without a benefit towards the system's initial goal), etc.

Now, you can say that this is what you want to do anyway and ... I got nothing. Fine, okay. But if we're still debating it then I must point out that what's being described here essentially comes down to taking TR's failed approach of handling plot, one we've moved on from since in newer games, and over-regulating it in order to patch up its side-effects. It won't work better in doing what it's supposed to do, and arguably it'll do worse.

To justify it, we're invoking arbitrary definitions of staff ethics. It doesn't add up.

The new FF movie is shaping up to be legendary... in a manner of speaking.

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/fantastic-four-director-swears-hes-021200954.html

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Where it fell through was when Staff ST's started running staff plot through their player bits so they too could get xp (i.e. they gamed the system). Rather than put a stop to it, ALL plot ended up in player hands and the Staff ST position all but disappeared from existence. Which was a terrible thing, since staff plot then largely disappeared as well. Nobody wanted to be a Staff ST and take the time away from their character to run a plot as a perk-less job when they could run multiple smaller plots from their character bits and get xp from it.

Since @Coin explained why a narrow fragmentation of 'staff' and 'non-staff' plot (and equivalent rewards) isn't a good idea I won't go over it; but the situation there sounds like a natural result of that. Staff gaming the system isn't mutually exclusive with the fact the system was bad.

There was an artificial restriction on who can run what which made no sense (what do people care if their story is being served by a player-bit or a staff-bit if it's the same story?) which made no sense. Who did it serve? How did the game benefit from it?

As for the rest, the idea that PrPs are important 'in their own way' or 'to help fill that void' while staff work out the next round of their own plot is what I'm talking about in how they're valued less.

@Miss-Demeanor said:

I just don't see having inside information or more things to mine for plots as a reason why they shouldn't get XP. It just don't work that way in my head. But hey, if it works, good!

That makes no sense to me. When I run plot as a player my character isn't present. Whether I have 'insider knowledge' or not is quite irrelevant.

It's not so much the rewards I care about here - as mentioned, even on games which offer it they add up to ... not that much. You could make that much or more far easier using Conditions and Aspirations.

No, it's the idea that player-ran plots are somehow unwanted that gets me. That somehow players actively participating in storytelling is a bad thing because it leads to staff not wanting to do the same thing - as if the two groups are at odds rather than just people on the same game wearing slightly different hats at different times.

It's an approach outside my realm of experience. It places a divide between things that needn't be divided and devalues PrPs by implying (in fact, stating) they are worth less. I don't see my plots as 'monster of the week' scenarios and I wouldn't want to run any if that was what I was permitted to.

@Sunny Alright, thank you.

Thanks for the recommendations, people! Much appreciated. Feel free to keep'em coming.

@Sunny In case I missed your answer (and I apologize if I have) is your plan to not incentivize (with XP or otherwise) players running plot at all? And is that the result of believing that they doing so is detrimental since it results in staff not running their own plots due to reasons?

@Thenomain said:

Too often (twice on the biggest WoD games), when staff got players to run things, they stopped. I'd love to incentivize players, but not if staff isn't willing to keep control and keep things going.

Why are those two things mutually exclusive? Staff can oversee and organize storytellers, keep track of active plots and help close inert ones. It's not one or the other. Staff and players are supposed to share the role of telling stories, they're not at odds with each other.

Looking at PrP running as a bad thing (assuming, of course, I'm reading this correctly - I acknowledge I might not be) goes quite against my philosophy of gaming, I can't fathom how the benefits could offset the downside.

What's ... I would call it amusing but it's not at all, is that the same people who subscribe to Revenge For Cecil aren't vegetarians.

So they'll happily go gobble down pounds of meat harvested from less exciting animals systematically living their lives under truly horrible conditions and reward the people doing this by paying for that meat, but ohno that one lion.

They're the same people who'll rage about abortionist baby-killers but will then also rage about those no-good deadbeat single mothers who went and got themselves pregnant and now need aid so they can feed said baby.

@Sunny said:

No. Staff teams essentially said 'whew, the players have mostly taken over storytelling' and stopped.

So you'd rather not have players running plot? I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just not sure I follow - I assumed you were incentivizing that, just not staff-ran stories.

But either way I disagree with the reasoning. "We have too much plot" is a problem I'd love to have on any game, and if it's so much staff aren't running any because they feel redundant then ... well, I don't know what happens then. I've never seen it happen.

If players running plot is an issue though, and that is the result of rewarding them then how come there hasn't been enough of it on games like SHH or even Eldritch who've been offering those rewards? I mean @Coin isn't about to give up STing because there are a bunch of people waiting in line for their turn to grab some XP, you know?

I don't even know if this counts as "RL" anger, but.

http://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/08/06/1255241/reddit-updates-content-policy-bans-more-subreddits

Social justice warriors peeve the hell out of me. Some of the things referred to in this link ... argh.

For a quote:

SRS (/r/shitredditsays) is a subreddit (forum) in which users post links to comments in other subreddits they find "offensive." The other users then follow that link to exact bloody revenge. And I mean bloody. They do not just "brigade" (which is also against the rules), downvoting en mass and posting insults. They go through somebody's post history and downvote everything they've ever said. They go farther still, "doxxing" people, breaking their pseudo-anonymity by going through their post history to try to uncover their real identity. Then they go further still, harassing that person in real life, and contacting their employer and trying to get them fired for opinions they expressed on the internet. It is the definition of harassment, in violation of the terms of the service of reddit and common human decency. Yet, SRS is never disciplined, never banned.

And in case you're wondering "well maybe these people deserve it!" No. Not by any stretch of the imagination. It's not like they're uncovering child abusers or something. They take anything that even maybe hints of "privilege" or insensitivity and spin horror stories out of whole cloth. In Warlizard's case (the guy who wrote the comment the GP reposted), he, talking about censorship, said that if reddit stands for "free speech" as they claim to, then no they shouldn't ban offensive subreddits like /r/rapingwomen. He goes on to say that if he had a private forum that he hosted, and someone made a subforum for that topic, he would ban it in a heartbeat because it's horrific and offensive. However, SRS took the first part of that and ran with it, called him a "rapist," followed him around, harassing him, and leaving nasty reviews on Amazon of the books he's authored.

They do this to lots of people. They want to be Social Justice Batman, but they're kind of like Batman if he were mentally retarded and high on crystal meth, programmed to punch anybody who utters certain words, regardless of context."

@Roz said:

@Arkandel What kind of movies do you like generally? Have you watched anime series that you like, or just no anime at all other than those two films? There are certain series/movies that I tend to think of as having broad appeal, but, like anything else, most of it just comes down to taste.

No anime at all other than that. As for what kind of movies... well, good ones. My suspicion is that there are some celebrated classics I haven't watched and I might be missing out on to get me started.

Like, if I was a new comic book reader I'd have liked to be told to take a look at The Dark Knight Returns or The Killing Joke even if I wasn't a Batman fan. Or Watchmen.

I have a confession to make. The only anime movies I've ever watched is Akira and Ninja Scroll. I was okay with the former and I liked the latter.

What am I missing out on? Any recommendations to start watching? Am I opening a vast can of worms by asking you freaks?

@ThatGuyThere said:

@Arkandel
Honestly even when I am on a place that gives out xp for running things I never turn things i in to staff to get it.
To me the hassle of paperwork is always a bigger issue then the reward. Of course I also don't run general plots. I just run things for people and characters I know.
In a play where I had to do the paperwork hassle to run things and could just say oh I'll do this and not take the xp, yes I would stop running things.

I've never been on a game where you had to ask for XP. A ST is always able to run scenes and not ask anything for them.

On the other hand I've been on games where you did have to file +jobs in advance in order to run what you wanted, laid out in varying amounts of detail, whether they awarded anything in the end or not.

Those two things are orthogonal. I can definitely agree though that red tape is the bane of PrP running anywhere.

@Ganymede said:

@Arkandel said:

What do you hope to gain with it? What's the goal, that is?

@Sunny has already stated that she wants to return to an older system of governance. I can't say that I disagree.

But that's not a goal, that's the means to one. Systems aren't goals, they have goals.

I have two issues. Someone like @Coin with personal experience on the staff-side of it could chip in.

1. Just because you have people offering to run spread plot around doesn't mean they will, especially after the game first opens. Even on Eldritch the number of people who were pledging themselves as PrP runners versus the number of PrPs that actually got ran over its first months don't align.

2. As noted in this thread, it's pretty common for staff to underestimate the amount of work they're signing themselves up to do. This fact is compounded by factors outside your control - nasty players with entitlement issues, real life blowing up good intentions in key people, the creeping realization you don't have spare time to play your own game any more and so on.

That, along with my previous remark about STs (staff or otherwise) actually giving up their opportunities for advancement in order to run plot for others is the reason I'm arguing against this.

What do you hope to gain with it? What's the goal, that is?

@Sunny said:

Games did just fine for storytellers (even player storytellers) prior to the introduction of XP for plots for staff. Really, there's been a significant decline in staff storytelling since the introduction of it, really. I'm sure this could be an example of correlation not equating out to causation, but I don't think it is.

Fair enough, but I'm curious as to your reasoning. Did people think "oh, I'm going to get XP for this crap? No way - I'm done here!" and stop running plot?

The other thing you never want to do is penalize players for running plot.

Since your character isn't present in scenes you run they don't stand to gain Beats, gain/resolve Conditions etc. Plus even outside mechanics while you run PrPs your character isn't making political connections, doing cool things for Renown, furthering his agendas, and so on.

So there's that as well.

@Ganymede said:

@Miss-Demeanor said:

Everything went to player-run (or Staff-run through player bits), which some people used to game the system for bunches of extra XP. I believe she's trying to halt that before it starts.

Why is this a problem?

I never understood that either. From all the things to be worried about, uber-powerful Storytellers should probably be on the very bottom of the list.

On Eldritch I've slowed down some but honestly I've ran a crapload of scenes. According to +xp I've gotten 4 XP for it. That's basically enough to buy one point in one attribute - woohoo! In exchange the game got 5-6 people entertained for a number of hours, plus whoever else they engaged on their own past that, both while I was actively doing it and off stage when they were playing about it among themselves with others.

One could argue XP isn't a sufficient way to incentivize PrP running and they'd probably be running (although historically we haven't been able so far to come up with a better one). But it's far from a problem, either - we simply need more mechanisms on top of it.