Posts made by Ganymede

@Lain said in Eliminating social stats:

Such is similar with players who want to use some subtle emotional ploy with their Manip 1 Persuasion 0 character. It almost definitely doesn't work. This is precisely why we have rolls. So yes, you can RP the specifics how you want, but if you fail the Manip + Persuasion vs Resolve + Composure roll, you are obligated to make your character say/do something stupid. Something unpersuasive. Something mildly embarrassing or just cringey. Why? Because he sucks at this.

I get what you're saying. Now, go ahead and enforce it.

Basically, every pose calculated to arouse something in someone is going to need a roll, and that just doesn't happen. Do I personally care if a person rolls to check if my PC is lying? No, I don't, but I'm pretty easy-going. That said, if I'm interrupted every freaking pose, I'm going to get a bit testy.

I would love it if everyone RPed their stats, but that's nigh impossible. People take fucking Presence 5 that can't pose their way out of a box. Should staff step in and cut down their Presence to 2? Because that's where I see this going, taken to the extreme.

@Lain said in Eliminating social stats:

I write software for a living, but I think it would be bad roleplaying on my part to have my Int 2 Computer 0 World of Darkness character conveniently know how to crack people's WiFi passwords just because I do.

I get that. So if there were no system check for hacking/computer skills, you'd be totally good to go.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, those skills aren't going to convince someone to drop their panties. And, in my opinion, mental skills get shat on through all of these discussions because they generally come up only in PvE situations.

But, I digress.

@Lain said in Eliminating social stats:

I definitely see where you're coming from, with players having an interest in being able to avoid entering some weirdo's magical realm, but wouldn't it be preferable to just ban magical realm shit without suppressing the import of social roles in basically any other context, than it would be to handwave social stats completely?

Some people just don't want any such rule or controversy, really. Whether it's wise or not is what we're discussing.

I'm on the side of "I prefer a system," but I'm also on the side of "or not" because I do very well on games which don't have a social system. Even on ones where one exists, my social concepts tend to do well because I am able to convince people to see my way (eventually) through text. (It's kind of my job.) I'd like to think I'm not a social power gamer, but some people may say differently.

But I'm addressing @Arkandel mostly here, as he and I have bandied around ideas for a while. I'm not sure if I'd agree with him here, but what may be more interesting is a resource-based system for political combat.

@Ghost said in Eliminating social stats:

The military doesn't lend super well to social skills since the game is task based, which leaves a lot of the social interaction to either team-based efforts or interpersonal relationships and if those get out of hand...in comes military regulations.

Politically, no, but a military game could include espionage against enemies, which might require social rolls against NPCs. We could talk about how genius BSG:U is until the cows come home, but it is what it is: very well-crafted to a particular kind of game.

I'll go ahead and say it: socially-savvy RPers get by very well in any game, but even better in ones where there are no social rolls or social combat. They will figuratively and literally get their way because they are good at what they do. You can always check them by requiring a roll where a system exists, which will at least make them honest in how they construct their PCs.

@Ghost said in Eliminating social stats:

If social skills/stats are eliminated from sheets, then games and characters can become sorely imbalanced.

Unless the game's setting and structure makes social and intellectual skills secondary or unimportant. Example: BSG: Unification, where having a particular secondary skill may make it easier to do a task or two, but actions otherwise revolve around a core of action skills relevant to combat.

@Meg's point is probably the most compelling. Eliminating social stats would give savvy players like @HelloRaptor an advantage over players that couldn't persuade Madonna to give it up for a bag of Peeps.

@Misadventure said in Eliminating social stats:

These are all social skills in my eyes. They all come under Ganymede's Guile, representing knowledge of options, and the ability to assess which approaches will be most likely get you want you want the most effectively.

To be fair, I boiled it all down to Guile because the game's supposed to be a war game, mostly, with a lot of pew-pew-pew and a lot of boom.

@Lain said in Eliminating social stats:

However, by giving players "agency" over their characters, you allow them to cop out of the real outcomes of the dice rolls, by coming up with cute and interesting ways to evade the point of the rolls at hand, and ignore the context that their characters are put in.

I know. I recognize that this is a possible outcome. But if it happens, would you ever play with that person again? Would you report them to staff? I would.

Maintaining a player of "agency" is negative when used like this, but it is positive and important when you have a player trying to use Intimidate or Dominate to get into someone else's pants or skirt. And for all the times I've had some player punk out of a legitimate social roll -- which happens regardless of whether the stats exist -- I'd rather that happen than to hear that someone rolled to seduce an unwilling player's character, and then had that enforced by staff who were "just following the rules."

As an improv performer, I'd frown at the douchebag who acts inappropriately to intimidation, but I'd seriously beat the fuck out of anyone breaking the cardinal rule of "don't be a fucking sexual predator."

@ThatOneDude said in Eliminating social stats:

But couldn't you /deprive agency/ with physical stats? IE: I grapple you and force you to stay when you want to leave. Or using force/violence I could make your PC do something they normally wouldn't. That's why to me it just makes sense to have a like for like system, that has like attack/defense. Then follow up with the "if you don't feel good with what's happening then fade to black or whatever."

By "agency," I mean intent and thought, rather than actual ability. As mentioned by another, grappling me is different than using some power or social ability to prevent me from resisting. You could physically force me to back down, or do it via power. I personally don't mind someone depriving me of agency, but it is a sticking point for others due to past histories, creepers, etc.

@Arkandel said in Eliminating social stats:

During game design, one of the potential ideas for its systems is to eliminate all social mechanics from it. That means no 'charisma' or 'manipulation' mundane attributes and no powers that sway emotions or decision-making.

I like this, but --

The intent behind this is to cut down on incidents where social attributes like that are ignored either way ('no, I get you rolled six successes on lying, but...'), not have to deal with 'how much sway' a given attempt produced given I've never been satisfied with how social damage has been implemented before in the games I've played, but also to eliminate concepts that try to browbeat others into TS.

-- I don't think the motivation is correct.

I have always believed that the problem is using these powers to twist another into playing in a way that would otherwise be contrary to the choice they would make for their PC. The problem is depriving agency, not the use of social stats themselves. And it's never a fair trade-off: no one balks when a vampire uses telepathy to determine if someone's actually lying, but sometimes make a stink when a player rolls a set of dice to make people believe their character's lie.

If social stats are limited to how a character appears, I'd be fine with that. Rolling social stats to give the appearance of being charming, innocent, or honest when one is concealing true motives is important. In a way, it's almost defensive: a guard is suspicious that a knight is lying his way past, but that knight seems so honest and caring -- he couldn't be a liar -- so he lets him through despite his better judgment. The knight isn't twisting the guard's behavior; he's giving the guard no cause to mistrust him.

It's a hard thing to balance. I know that, in my own system, I've reduced the social stats down considerably to a single stat: Guile. Guile's important to have as a tactician as much as a merchant, and comes into play in combat and the economy.

@Kanye-Qwest said in Auspice Needs To Move!:

Snakebite seems plausible, for Texas.

Stunner seems plausible, for the Texas Rattlesnake.

@Lisse24 said in MU Pacing:

Yes, I am looking at you @Ganymede, Mr. Auf der Schmermerter.

Herr Neun auf Schwerter. And, if you'll recall, Cai was super boring. Kind of.

@MrWigggles said in MU Pacing:

I hate meeting characters. I hate the intial meeting of characters. Just that cold turkey, "Oh hello. I'm blah." And it so boring, because I've done it to death, and its always akward, as you the player may not have a repour with the other player and your character and theirs dont have a repour with each other either. With mu*ing, being improv, you need to know how to give and take between each other.

1. It's "awkward."
2. It's "rapport."
3. Skilled improv performers can act with others they have not met before, provided the other person is similarly skilled. In fact, this is one of the first, basic skills improv performers practice.

@bored said in Indicating Discomfort in a Scene (online):

The only thing you can do to make people complain more is take it seriously.

Bingo.

@Arkandel said in How to Change MUing:

What is the line between what you would consider acceptable for a roleplaying game and the environment becoming a MUD?

Why can't you consider a MUD a role-playing game? Can't it be both?

I'd like some more automation. I'd like some more stuff to do with my downtime, whether it be communicating IC through a letter system or hitting code for little resource rewards (appropriately capped).

Carrots encourage people to come around. Better chance to get RP that way.

@surreality said in Indicating Discomfort in a Scene (online):

I adore the shit out of you, @Ganymede, but -- and this is not an insult -- this is a very different personality type from yours in many cases; you're very self-assured, confident, and willing to speak up. Not everybody is comfortable with this in the same way, or in the moment, and this is all I mean here. I can get why this seems really alien to you that people aren't just doing this in the way you're describing they should. I really do agree that people should be willing and able to speak up, but -- and this is critical -- people have different comfort zones here.

I get what you're saying. And you're right: there are different comfort levels. But if you are not comfortable with speaking out, you can't really expect change. And I know -- I know -- this is like I'm blaming a victim, and, in some cases, that may be the case.

So, tell someone? Anyone. If not staff, maybe another player. Please. When I've staffed, I've tried to be vigilant, but things fall through the crack. I regret decisions to not act more than decisions to act.

@surreality said in Indicating Discomfort in a Scene (online):

Bear in mind, though, those examples are seemingly silly, yeah... but I am that person that got asked for a coffee shop scene and got mage-panther mind-control oral rape from out of nowhere, and piping up about not being super keen on that or expecting that out of a coffee shop scene was 'it's a non-consent game, deal with it'.

When I was 19, I might have thought the same. I'm now 38. I mean, if this happened recently, @surreality, I have no idea what demon you peed on as a kid, but karma's coming back hard and inexplicably.

A harder situation is where there's a player that's very active, but who makes other players uncomfortable with inappropriate or badly-timed comments on channels or in pages. Still, in that case, the instant there is one complaint there is probably a dozen other players that have quietly left.

@surreality said in Indicating Discomfort in a Scene (online):

By the logic you're using here, on every WoD game, when someone asks me if I would like to meet them for RP, I should be prepared to spend half an hour explaining to them what I do not want to have happen during a first meeting over lattes at the local coffee shop, from drive-by shootings to rape to witnessing child murder to being drugged by something that will turn me into a grue to <let this list just scrollllllllllllllll> and that I not be anally violated by an entire pack of werewolves wearing spandex and doing a WWF hand-slap whilst calling out 'TAG ME IN, BRO!', and then be prepared to be met with a similar list.

If you are uncomfortable with being violated by a pack of were-bros, then you probably should not be on a World of Darkness game.

That said, I disagree; that's not the logic being employed here in the slightest. How people decide to take responsibility for their own well-being is up to them. If RP Prefs are used, that's one way to alert others. You could also interrupt scenes when they get too intense, and politely bow out.

Really, though, it is my privilege that I've never been in a scene where I've felt the need to log out or leave. Ever, in 20+ years. Whether I ask to FTB or just play through, I've been around people reasonable enough to respect that. When I've been informed of those who are not, and I'm staff, I'm not shy about showing them the door.

So, the side topic is: what do you do about people who don't respect others' discomfort? My answer: show them out.

@Vorpal

Congratulations!

@faraday said in How to Change MUing:

Racking up the XP to become super-awesome? Nope.

Speak for yourself.

I'm just really bad at this aspect of the game.

@Tempest said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:

So why haven't you guys done it yet? I'm sure Ganymede could get somebody to install nWoD vampire code somewhere.

Many elements of RfK relied on "unique" bits of code that I haven't seen anywhere else. Plus, as has been said, there were problems that needed addressing, namely the over-reliance on staff oversight for important matters from territorial actions to beat-sheets.

There was an RfK 2.0, but its operation wasn't particularly good. The code was not working properly, for one thing, so the territory system was broken and inoperable. Staff weren't always there. It still had plenty of activity at all times, with political machinations and everything, but I would want to make sure that RfK's problems were addressed before launching. It fell apart when it became readily apparent that staff weren't entirely ethical.

That said, I am trying to set a political environment similar to RfK's. The good people at F&L have been nice enough for me to essentially declare a system of governance by fiat, similar to what RfK had ICly. Time will tell if my PC is gutted for it or not, but, hey, things are happening and hopefully we can keep it moving forward.

But, to my previous point: this was done by a player; this was done IC; and this was done with the non-interference of staff.