Best posts made by Gingerlily

@Cupcake

I remember a thousand years ago when you told me about that, it was the first time I'd heard of WORA. I was so offended on your behalf it was the first and last time I ever looked at that site and I stand by that.

People get pissy over games whatever, but personal public attacks on people in their real lives is beyond. I don't even have the right words to describe how beyond. It's one of the shittiest things I've ever observed on a forum community whatever, and I am appalled whenever I remember it.

@Arkandel

So this thread inspires a question for you.

MSB a net positive for the hobby, or nah?

PostScript: This is not an actual question, I am trolling Ark because it just seemed to work here.

PostPostScript: @surreality, it sucks that your posting regarding gave dev questions on the Mildly Constructive topic got to the place it did. It would be a shame if you dropped a project you were excited about over people's words -here-. I hope you don't. I hope people keep putting the work into making games because more games to play on is good. It's a lot of time and energy investment to staff on a game much less develop one yourself. The site seems to have established elsewhere that people just being cool to one another is not a thing that can be made to work. I don't have amazing advice, my advice could be shitty. But people being uncool to you here likely has no correlation to what you could create and how much you and others would enjoy it.

@Coin said in Good writin'.:

I think, @juke, your problem here is going to be that there are no games in which you'll find just the style you want. Sure, some games have a style most players adopt, but by and large, style is more of a person-to-person thing, in these cases.

For me, randomly looking back, the people I really love writing with when it comes to cooperative back-and-forth, and pose efficiency and clarity, while also maintaining some sort of poetry (and this, I stress, does not mean I don't immensely enjoy writing with others) are very few and far between. Many of them are not on MSB.

The following is an extremely short list of people I randomly remember who I also know the MSB usernames of:

@EmmahSue, who enchanted me as Meadow on The Reach.
@Eerie, who hasn't played in a while now, but who is just so much fun.
@Gingerlily, when I can get her to not scroll my screen like she's playing Galaga with words.
@Quibbler, less about the poetry and more because we just click when it comes to rapidfire back-and-forth, laconic shit.
@tragedyjones, because we share humor, even though he barely ever plays, the fucker.
@Scorn is furiously fun when she's on, which if I played now-a-days, I would hope would be often.
@ILuvGrumpyCat ditto the above, when she's on, she shines.

Honestly? If I seek you out for RP, especially to make groups or long-term stories, it means I like the way you write.

I love this all but my favorite part is how it was all sweet of you and you were making a list of people whose writing you think well of and enjoy...you still kind of managed to burn me too. It's just so very @Coin

He had a solid point though. I fully admit that in certain moods, with certain people who I know also enjoy this kind of thing (so not with people who I know are totally bored/annoyed/etc, it's not a punishment on the unwilling) I sometimes will play just to play around with writing, and make flowery poses and put allegory and whatever in there and the actual pleasure of the task is just kind of playing around with language. In other words it may NOT be about these things we all know we love and seek in scenes, like plot pushing and character development and storyline exploration and meta-plot solving as a team and and and etc.

I know I could find other mediums for this but I don't usually want to do it for long enough to be one of the folks who is also writing a novel, or even writing short stories to share online somewhere, or whatever. It's using the already handy medium of the game and the characters to write for fun to unwind and relax. I don't do it all the time (or ever, lately) but I did enjoy it sometimes interspersed with the other kinds of rp, the ones more about the game than the thesaurus cuddling and metaphor dependency.

To bring this back around to the question of what kinds of writers I like writing with, I guess my response is 'it varies a TON'. I obvs love writing with @Coin as we have discussed and he likes brevity and probably puts my poses all through that website that helps you write like Hemingway to dissect them. I also love writing with people who are super spammy and flowery and nutty, because then I can be too sometimes. I've clicked with all kinds, and who I might want to click with on a given night of rp time may depend largely on my whim!

@Sunny said in MU Things I Love:

Friends who write descs for you are the best kinds of friends.

Ty ty

@Apu said in Rick Sanchez' Banning:

For me, the last straw with the jerkoff was his posting the meme about autism. I tend to take that kind of shit personally because my oldest son is autistic and I fail to find anything humorous where that goes. Wanted to tell him to go DIAF for that but by the time I posted that he had already been banned.

You got downvoted for this for some reason but I upvoted you because I teach special ed and fuck that dude but a downvote and an upvote equal a zero so you get a comment too so you can -feel- my approval!

@Coin

Bah! Heavy fingers late at night in my commenting frenzy. Also I never criticized his grammar! I just recall in high school instances of having to count back to remember who was saying what. Love Hemmmmmingway with all of your heart. I don't judge. Not to your face I mean, that would be so rude.

Also does anyone remember a MU* that had something to do with characters being reincarnations of famous writers? There was a plot but I forget it. I only remember a friend pulling me along and somehow convincing me to play the Anais Nin. I enjoyed it especially because I dislike Anais Nin, so all of my scenes were me acting pretentious and 'deep'. But I never did figure out what to do besides that. Or maybe it was just too much fun being mock Anais Nin to bother. There was a Heminngway too, and he suggested we have a backstory as exes. I went with it ONLY if he promised to dump my character in Paris, in the rain, using short sentences.

I am fairly close with people who run a Pay to Play (actually Pay for Perks, its a much more lucrative model) MUD that they were able to make into their sole means of income and turn into a game development company that eventually created non text games. For profit. They made their business very, very successful, but the 'staff as customer service' model there was really nothing like the discussions of staff as customer service here. When it is legitimate customer service, paying customers, thousands of dollars at stake things get very, very complicated in terms of how and why and in what manner stories can be impacted. I loved my experience there, but I would not put myself in their shoes. Ever. Just running factions in that kind of situation was loaded.

Secondly when I choose the charities I am going to give my money to each year I tend to want to choose them myself. Organizations that are meaningful to me that I have researched. It is possible but not likely that I and a group of 30-50-whatever gamers would have like-minded views on what organizations we feel are the most deserving of our hard earned money...I tend to give to local groups whose benefits are seen in my community, not larger organizations.

Most of this has been said before but I'll chime in too.

I played Armageddon twice, and both times ended up leaving.

I've played on a lot of different text games, and before I started MUSHing the games I played were MUDs. Some RPE, some RPI, I liked trying new stuff.

I found Armageddon to be just about the least newbie friendly a game could possibly be. There was an approval process for characters that would often get sent back for edits (I got one because a person of whatever race or culture I picked would not have the eye color I listed, so I got to write it over.) So work is put into creating a new character, which is fine it is on lots of games. But. As a newbie you have to find a source of food, a safe place to sleep, etc etc or you won't last your first hours of play. This may seem like oooh gritty fantasy but it is really just tedious in practice. After one afternoon of 'you are starving to death' messages and no source of food that I could just buy or even gather, I was dunzo.

Second time I gave it a go was about 2 or 3 years later. This time I joined a clan fairly quickly so I had tons of food, and tons of supplies to use to practice my skills (I made a crafter) and some people who would look out for me. I was working on some crafting while rping with a guy in the clan and finished a shirt, it looked cool! I decided I wanted to put it on. And then here comes the thing that we've discussed on these very boards, the moment where in changing my shirt it wasn't handwaved but instead the dude present said something to my character about her nice tits.

I know some people who LOVE it and that's cool by me. I did not, the reasons above are two glaring examples but there are others, I could go on. The reason it is not my jam is not that I can't handle the 'gritty' atmosphere (their words not mine, I don't see a lot of grit just annoying details) Rather it is not my jam because there's so much focus on things that are wastes of time and less focus on things that are fun for players.

Caveat: Both of these experiences were late 90's early 2000's. A lot may have changed.

@Sunny said in RL things I love:

Having a doctor that actually listens to me.

FFS, it makes such a difference in the quality of my life to have my GP believe me when I'm in pain.

This is such a big deal, and dodgy insurance can make it tricky but my feeling after years of complicated health issues is if I am not gelling with a doctor, GP or specialist, I ditch and try again. That relationship is so important.

Though I have had the same GP since I was 18 and the same neurologist since about 22. (My neuro now works with me in collaboration with another neuro at his practice who is a headache specialist though). But I've ditched dentists!

Thanks guys!

And like I said, this wasn't a plug for the game or an attempt to get people who left for whatever reasons to return. This is just a me apologizing for something I did that upset people. It happened on the MU*, but that's just location. What people think about KD itself, whether they want to play it or never will again or want to consider it...entirely separate subject!

@faraday said in Armageddon MUD:

@rahnevyn said in Armageddon MUD:

When I mentioned being in the wrong neighborhood and getting mugged as a mistake earlier (like back on page... 10?..) I meant it as a mistake in terms of a "I have heard these warnings, but don't heed them" sense rather than a "Whoops, you took a wrong turn, now you die!" sense. Just to clarify.

I think that's been a big part of the problem in this thread is all the seemingly-contradictory information.

"You won't be punished for being a newbie" vs "People will totally react to your faux pas without breaking character, as if you're a moron, or take advantage of you for making a mistake"

"You have to just learn things for yourself, like where water is and where to hunt" vs "Here's a handy map and a helpfile describing how to hunt"

"There's no OOC channels in-game, why would you even want such a thing?" vs "It's totally fine to use +ooc for brief questions, that's what it's there for"

"Your welcoming might very well be a mugging and/or a murder, just roll with it" vs "We're here to help the new players and there are tons of OOC and IC warning messages"

Etc. And that's all from the people advertising the game - that's not even counting the obvious critics. Personally? It's not a game for me either way and can only attribute my continued participation in this thread to temporary insanity. But folks trying to boil down the dissent to a disagreement about MUDs vs MUSHes are completely missing what folks are actually complaining and/or confused about.

Some of this isn't unique to Armageddon but is part of the RPI culture. I remember back in the day when I played MUDs and was frequently on mudconnector and topmudsites and other forums talking about this or that. One of the most heated debates, heated to the point of ugly, was RPI vs not RPI. Granted this is all at least 15 years ago, but the amount of ridiculous put into those debates was...well ridiculous. I've seen a lot of toxic in the MUSH culture (right here on these boards even!) but very rarely does it get as asinine as the knock down drag out fights I witnessed when people argued what was RPI and what wasnt and some tried to explain why RPI was vry srs and all other roleplaying games were not 'real rp' because people can communicate OOC, or people help newbies, or there is not permanent death.

I've assumed that in the 15 years since they've reached some kind of consensus but I haven't gone back to look.

@surreality said in RL Anger:

I can spot the chain, too, on that one. I'm not on the spectrum but have ADD, and the 'keep things in mental buckets' would have 'Chaucer' and 'A Knight's Tale' in a mental bucket (cool characters in guilty pleasure movies I love); 'Chaucer' and 'Shakespeare' would also be together in their own mental bucket (English authors of ye olden days), so you'd probably get an overlap with me, too. It'd likely also give Will a tenuous place in the Entertaining Instances of Anachronisms Included mental bucket, with things like A Knight's Tale and The Princess Bride and Blackadder so on.

SEMI RELATED: There is a theory now that likens the spectrum to an iceberg with the commonly known diagnostics at the visible top and a score of other things, among them ADHD and anxiety disorder, underneath. Not in terms of "If you have these things you are on the spectrum" but more "Genetically these things might be similar enough to contribute to one another across a family's history" Relevant to me because I have ADHD like woah and anxiety like WOAH and a kid on the spectrum. Sharing it with you because...I dunno!

@surreality

Yeah people get pretty offensive here and seem to thoroughly enjoy it. I'm not only referring to trolls either, but to the regular posting crew. When a group of people are pissed at a particular player, or a game as a whole, or a particular staffer...I don't think the claws stay sheathed. It gets nasty plenty often.

For me that doesn't necessarily mean 'MSB is a bad place, its bad for gaming, text gaming would be better without it" It just means "MSB is a forum and it reads just as most forums on anything at all do. Sometimes productive, interesting conversations. Sometimes people being supportive of one another in various ways. Sometimes just plain straight up nasty behavior with deliberate intent to hurt people." So in that sense its just sort of typical. It's a forum. I don't know how many of you have ever read any mommy/parenting forums but the content is basically the same. Sometimes wonderful and community building, sometimes people deliberately trying to make other people cry. (I cannot handle parenting forums AT ALL anymore but still click around MSB occasionally so maybe that tells us something.).

Just for reference, I was never part of WORA. Someone showed me something on it once and it was so cruel and vile that I did not want to even provide my pageclicks, I felt that strongly about how hideous it was. So I mean, I clearly see this as a much better place. I'm not anti MSB, I've had some great, productive conversations here. I just don't know that I'd go so far as to say it is a beneficial public service to this particular geek community. It can be great, it can be really gross and ugly, and that's basically how 90% of forums on the internet work, so it's working out as designed, I'd figure.

Dr. Suess has it covered. However please don't think that these discussions are representative of what all people who play MUDs think. RPI is...a different beast? Most MUD players I know/have known are very chill people. If you tried to engage them into a long debate about what 'true roleplay' really is they'd roll their eyes just as much as many MUSHers would.

There's some with VRY SRS ideas about what fun is good and what fun is bad and etc in both sets of games, but I don't think they make up the majority.

@Cupcake said in RL Anger:

@Thenomain For clarification here is a summary:

Me: Have you seen Will yet?
Him: No, not yet, people keep encouraging me to watch it.
Me: You might like it, it reminds me a lot of A Knight's Tale in terms of style.
Him: I've read every one of Chaucer's works aloud!

So yes, I understand the intuitive leap to Chaucer, but we were talking about the comparison of style, not that his accomplishments with regard to reading Chaucer.

It came off, in context, like an out-of-nowhere brag, but I can see how someone on the spectrum might pluck a portion out of a conversation and zig when you thought it was going to zag.

Depending on where he falls on the spectrum he honestly might not realize he is bragging, that is a nuanced social thing that we expect people to get intuitively, but he genuinely might not. Kids and adults on the spectrum can be -super- frustrating to deal with, I totally get that 100 per-cent. But so many things that seem so simple to us about interacting may really not be.

@faraday said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@surreality said in MSB: The meta-discussion:

@Gingerlily I used to be a mod on the big abortiondebate forum on livejournal. I have seen some shit. <rubs salve on all the scars> So I know precisely what you're saying about it just kinda being how people are on the internets.

Just because it's how people are on 90% of the internet forums out there doesn't mean that's how it should be or how it has to be. It all comes down to what community standards you choose to have and whether you're willing to enforce them.

I think adults should be capable of reining themselves in and providing criticism while still recognizing that the person whose game/system/show/opinion you're bashing is still a person who deserves to be treated with basic respect. It's the difference between saying "I don't like Battlestar games because X, Y Z" instead of "Man, Battlestar games suck. Why would anyone in their right mind want to play that crap?" (I love BSG, for the record.)

It's really not that hard, it just takes effort.

Yes. This is 100 per-cent true, and I was not really considering those things when saying 'forums are forums what can ya do?' Because the truth is they do not HAVE to be that way. The group of people using the forum can set any culture they wish to, if they agree on what that culture is or should be. So totally, MSB could be better. People tossing in nasty insults and personal attacks could be shunned instead of cheered on by a big enough crowd that they continue. The whole pattern of 'I had a shitty experience or interaction but I will get the last word and the last laugh after my MSB post' could be a non issue because the community could decide that is not the kind of thing that interests them. There will always be enough people itchin for dirt or gossip or some good trash talk who jump right on in I think...but you have it called. There does not HAVE to always be that element because people could stop accepting it. We absolutely can always be better

I know for many who were part of the WORA days this seems like a place full of sweetness, but I think to those of us who were not it looks different. As a separate entity with no context, its a site where the trash talking area has the most posts and views.

Maybe someday there will be a Mu* gaming and design discussion forum that has no place for or interest in bashing other people (whether they feel like that bashing is totally legit or not, that is not what I am focusing on here)

Until then this is it. Some people love the place, some loathe it and do not participate, some are kinda lukewarm but still interested in some of the content.

I still think it is neither good nor bad for Mu*ing in general overall. Parts are great for it, others are probably ugly and damaging. That is a super boring conclusion, but it is all I have got.

From what I've seen, and admittedly I just glanced through 'the big ones' on Mudconnector and TMS the threads about your site either got mostly no response on forums, or some gentle questions about whether the frequency of posts met guidelines. So yeah, not the same 'backlash' there was here. Here there was questioning about the 'inclusion policy' some flat out just dragging for it, some criticism, some discussion. Too much? I dunno, up to you guys to judge. Like I said, I've had interesting conversations with @Jeshin about games and different games and game design as a result, I don't come out with guns blazing. I also had a conversation with him about how perhaps the group on the forum who called themselves 'rape enthusiasts' as an official title on their sidebar avatar things might be offputting to new members looking for mature discussion. Or the discussion topic I never mentioned, started by someone who appeared to be a MUD runner/staffer called "Female Players Can't Get Along: It Is A Thing."

It's a new community, finding its footing, deciding who it wants to be and what tone it wants to take, and in that I wish it well. The MUSH 'forum' community cannot claim it hasn't had worse going on.

So you've picked what games you want to highlight, and perhaps the staff and players of those games will bring you the innovative, productive discussion you are yearning for. Where's the argument? Isn't it over?

@Auspice

She's right of course, you do need to eat. Hunger and/or low blood sugar are major triggers! Behave!

(jk, my neuro told me to go on a wheat free diet 3 months ago and I keep 'planning to start next Monday' ever since then.)

@Thenomain said in Strange Game Dev Inquiries from surreality (condensed):

@Gingerlily

I think you and I (and possibly also @Three-Eyed-Crow and probably also @Ghost) are trying to bend the consensus that "non-constructive" doesn't always mean "using insulting words".

On Wora (since we're now merging this thread and the MSB Meta-Discussion thread), the exact rule was, "Attack the idea, not the person." This is what @Arkandel was reminding people of. I'll be honest I didn't think that @bored's original argument was attacking the person, tho I think that he and @surreality did slip into that without using the same four-letter words that Ghost did.

Here, the exact phrasing is, "Something besides the equivalent of 'NO YOU'. That shouldn't be hard, right?" But this isn't a rule. We were pretty hard-assed about the rule on Wora, while here we are, coming close to discussing what "constructive" really means. I think we can both agree that "no you" happened before Ghost raised the middle finger.

But then, we're both +1ing each other so much that people might think we'd need some alone-time. I'm not just preaching to the choir here, though, I promise.

Agreed, We don't want to creep people out with the +1s

I just think it is so easy to pause for a moment and consider 'what is the purpose in expressing this thought this way?" and also the 'Is this going to be hurtful to someone' and if it is then 'Why does hurting them feel okay to me?' Different people have different feelings, introspection, etc about that kind of thing. But I think if more people stopped to ask those questions, some of the dialogue here would be different. Not all. Maybe not even most.

This is usually the kind of thing people dig their heels way into on however, because whatever their opinion (be kind, treat others with patience and respect) to (Let it ALLLL out, people have thick skins, they can take it, trash those who deserve trashing!) or something in between, they got their via their own stuff. C'est la Vie or something.