Posts made by mietze

Eldest just received official confirmation of his acceptance into his first choice college.

I created a thread in the hog pit and will be moving the appropriate posts there. I think the real discussion actually is interesting and was at least for the most part constructive, and there are some interesting issues discussed that I can see why some folks might not want the whole thing moved to the hog pit.

If you want to rip into someone personally, please do it there. Further namecalling posts here after this post will just be moved to the locked circular file thread.

Topic drift is fine and expected. Personal attacks and just namecalling really aren't but if it is important to you to do so there's now an appropriate place to do so. Thanks.

I am on the fence about that. I think one can really examine the ways one has benefited and tacitly even participated and taken advantage of egregious things done in the name of one's culture or religion and it isn't bad to experience that pain and shame. It is important to not necessarily wallow in it which is where some people get stuck.

You do not have to be an activist per se to be on the receiving end of doxing and harassment, unless you count anyone who has ever given public testimony before the legislature, school board, or other body about a subject or who speaks out against troubling activity an activist.

I guess you could in one sense but to me that is somewhat disrespectful of what people who do campaigning and coordination as well as more disruptive forms of activism and advocacy actually do.

And yet, people absolutely will stalk and harass you for giving public commentary at meetings of government bodies. For me that is more personally frightening than the FB trolls because it's people who are definitely in your community.

And people within groups often eviscerate each other. The worst case of harassing grossness that my kid has faced was from a couple of people in a trans support group who decided he was transphobic because he disagreed with them about whether or not everyonr should immediately cut someone out of their life for using their dead name. Not that he disagreed that no one should, just that he personally did not always. That lead to a short time of intense threats (including rape and death threats) and a longer period of online harassment. He and I have both faced harassment and face to face name calling because of our public advocacy in the school district, but nothing that intense (I think because unlike online stuff where you don't have the identity or real location of the person doing the harassment, police will take seriously a member of their community texting death and rape threats to a minor, and people k know it.)

The most death and rape threats I have personally received came from my efforts (combined with others) from within a political party to remove from their position and toss out a long standing and popular political organizer who liked to rape young women at after hours events after getting them alcohol. We succeeded after a very ugly fight--he is out as are a few other people who had been doing other gross stuff that did not involve assault for years, and put an end to the good old boys party culture at state events. But not without a lot of really horrible pushback and personal attacks. Especially since as an elected party official your personal info is usually public information so. It was really intense.

In all cases did I or my kid "deserved" this, I suppose so. We did after all speak up, publicly even if it wasnt rah rah rally activism. I have done that to and while I am mindful of police violence potential as well as crowd danger, to be honest I feel safer doing demonstrations than I have putting my words on record. It is just kind of the price of active citizenship. For every person regardless of political view that speaks in a public and on record fashion theres going to be a ton that will really go after you where they think nobody can see.

This happens to people who write and produce art that touches on any kind of social issue, regardless of side, and due to biases and other long standing things as far as publishing industry and other corporate oversight I'm unconvinced that the majority of people who are left out in the cold are people who dont have "snowflake" sensibilities. Pretty sure there is much more suppression and lack of support for "nontraditional" authors and artists. I just think maybe there isn't as much, so that paltry change feels like a groundswell towards people who feel threatened by it.

That's a human nature thing, though.

As a reminder, this thread is not in the Hog Pit, and while argument (and strong argument) is fine, please refrain from personal attacks.

@Groth The Mulan live action movie, unless it's being given a major revision, doesn't really offer a perspective on Japanese imperialism or this period of time, no.

There are quite a few Chinese language movies set in this era that do touch on it directly as well, though granted they're not from like...the state run media or anything.

If you are talking about movies from a Chinese perspective in American media in particular, I think the answer is obvious. Racism, the fact that the Chinese were (yes, I know rather incorrectly) seen as being just as good as part of the USSR during the cold war, the fact that American society always loves to shit on people we see as "losers" of the conflicts we're interested in, ect. I find it interesting that someone would be surprised that we have no popular movies that uplift the Chinese perspective on anything.

Personally, I think the Koreans should be pissed that they're in the same boat, except for they're actually allies of the US, and certainly suffered from the same sort of predations from the Japanese. But oh wait, that got whitewashed because then we could blame all the North Korean actions as Chinese inspired ones, yet again making them the bad guy and deflecting from Japanese responsibility.

This isn't surprising (even though it's gross).

However, it's really not relevant to this particular game.

@Groth I think it's possible that one could ask people who want to play Japanese characters to understand that part of the culture is no longer in play (Just like there is a pretty huge shift in people's thinking about the rights of women, people of color, and LGBTQ+ folks). And again, maybe that IS coming, rulings wise.

There's no handwringing going on that I can see. I have no vested interest what happens with Japanese characters or that part of the history.

When I speak of needing to tolerate a certain discomfort to play on a game like this, that is doing an alt-history theme, I'm talking about the discomfort that comes from "dumbing down" if you prefer what happened historically. I appreciate that there are, essentially, changes that make it so that it's likely the Holocaust as we know it will not happen.. (Just as I suspect that the Nanjing Massacre will not happen).

While this makes me happier in the sense of playing the game, it also makes me feel at least some discomfort at removal of this to achieve a world in which we can play somewhat comfortably with modern sensibilities. It's not erasure. I enjoy (while also simultaneously feel kind of weird and uncomfortable) other alternative-history explorations both that erase "bad" elements and those that don't (such as The Man in the High Castle). But there can be an element of feeling discomfort about that that can put people (including myself) on edge very fast, and I think it is probably good to keep that in mind when gauging what we believe to be the other person's intent on the game. (Since I'm sure some people like totally don't think about that stuff at all, which is fine, too.)

I am personally well aware of what happened with Japanese Imperialism (though granted more on the Korean side than Chinese). due to the stories of family members and family members of close personal friends who directly experienced some very horrific things during that time. Which is probably why I personally don't really feel an inclination to app in a Japanese PC of this era.

This is always a risk when you are deciding to play on a history-lite or history-alternate game that is close enough to be in relatable reach, at least for me. I think you have to be able to deal with this internal discomfort in a way that doesn't mean you are going to lash out at other players without stopping to ask questions of staff and even of that player first, though.

And to be very, very clear. The PC in question here very explicitly in their information says that they loathe the imperialist military actions and how non-Japanese people have been treated. They very clearly do NOT want to play a war criminal. As there really hasn't been a ruling on whether or not in this timeline one can be a fan of the cultural ideal of the Emperor and also not support military actions that were directed by him (if they are in this timeline, I agree that it seems a bit of a stretch to say NO involvement, personally.), who knows, maybe it will be that all Japanese PCs must be kind of running from/seeking to get away from their government/that aspect of their culture? Not sure, it remains to be seen.

I do think that people need to have a certain level of tolerance with uncomfortable situations/history/even history revision in order to play here. (I'll admit it's one of the things that draws me to it, so I don't think that's a bad thing.)

I admire how the developers have worked pretty diligently to put in some safety bumpers around most everything BUT detailed ones in Asia (but I'm sure after this discussion it's coming). I think there is some risk that some players will conflate real history (especially not really that understood history) and let it inform play, but it seems like that could be handled on a case by case basis. I'm guessing there might be some of that at work here with the Japanese military PC--either they weren't super aware of or assumed that too might have been given some softening by the alternative history view about Hirohito, but I also appreciate that the IRA is not given a lot of press and the crackdown/harsh imprisonment policies in Northern Ireland with the British Government is not in the timeline and presumably has not happened, so we're also not setting up for the Troubles and terrorism either, and given the huge change to women's rights and social status I'm not really certain that war rape is a strategy in-game either on any side. There's not a lot of detailing about how colonialism is playing out now, but I also assume THAT may be gentled as well, in regards to racism and social status.

What I do worry a little about is people leaping to assumptions about the motivations of people playing PCs that would make them uncomfortable if real timelines were kept, and then calling for their heads OOCly. That happens on every game, and if I didn't have a certain amount of tolerance for that sort of thing or tons of "you're not playing it right, listen to me I'm a history major/hobbiest" then I wouldn't be playing here. (Thank goodness there hasn't been much of that if any that I've seen, but I am sure at some point I will!) I love historical themes (but not strict adherence to historical accuracy), I find alternative history really interesting.

I like that there is tension built in, but the intent seems to be very clear to me in looking at the changes made to the culture and the timeline very deliberately make it so that you really aren't going to have people allowed to play gross stuff. I would worry more about it creeping in over time if staff wasn't so obviously invested and responsive.

You can always talk with that PC to work it out too, for how to handle it. Or to at least touch base about why your character might be avoidant.

There are a few opportunities for interpersonal bad blood/conflict because of the mix of nationalities on the ship and the timeline. I know I've reached out to a few people about that and have gotten favorable responses, but I feel more comfortable pulling punches until I know that conflict is welcome.

I don't like erasure of works, because they often whitewash the problematic concepts that people are trying to protect others from.

I think one of the most amazing impacts that I've ever seen (like really seen, as in watching the faces of the students during this presentation) in a classroom setting was in college, when one of the professors I was helping in our department, showed about an hour of extremely horrifically racist Bugs Bunny and other famous cartoons, complete with the year in which they were displayed for the public. Including stuff into the 60s. Especially the stuff from the 40s-60s, because the discussion immediately beforehand was about what impacts people thought the media culture had on black and Hispanic people in particular during a time period that is often kind of idealized as perfect Happy Family time.

I knew what to expect, since I'd been through this class before with her, but it still felt like a punch in the gut to see familiar, childhood characters in this context because that kind of thing was scrubbed almost (but not completely) from the reruns that I was watching as a kid like less than a decade later. I never saw that displayed in a class were people did not have visible expressions of shock and some people always cried. Even in a very racist city in a racist state. But none of them forgot it either.

Same thing with reading certain stories and works /when also accompanied by a discussion about events going on in the world at the time/.

Removal allows white people in particular to pretend things weren't so bad or didn't happen.

I don't like it.

Some of this may be more an American problem than anything else. It still amazes me to be living in the Seattle area and having 4 kids go through public schools and talk for less than a day about what happened to the Native Americans in this area, no discussion of how treaties came into being and why and the conflicts around them that persist to this day, the impacts of racism on those communities. We don't talk about the sundown laws in our state that lasted longer than Jim Crow laws. And at my eldest's 18 birthday party, where he chose to go to a Japanese restaurant in Seattle that has been in operation for 100 years except for the time period that the family was interned in Idaho, one of the kids that was attending asked "What's that?".

I do not feel the same about modern authors, I'll be honest. But I think works that were the "products of their time" should still be looked at preferably with the context and the ugliness highlighted. People need to see it.

I have no interest in writing longer original works but I do enjoy writing and love the joint storytelling. Best part of mushing for me. In fact sometimes I wish I could JUST storytell on a game without needing to make a PC because I love spoilers and variety and having a PC provides a lot of encumbrances/COI concerns and other stressors that I do not always want.

In addition, it is a hobby where I have developed lasting friendships with people all over the world. I adored pen pal through postal mail but when that really died out/waned I am glad I had this hobby. There are people in my life that I have now talked with almost daily to near weekly for the last 25+ years. That's really awesome and a comforting sort of stability that I did not grow up with. I have gotten to tell stories about subjects that I do not broach in RL with people who have been by and large safe to do that with.

And I keep meeting new people who are interesting and wonderful.

@surreality see I do not even have a problem with that per se. I love playing a quiet game of Guess That Trauma to see if I can figure out tells, ect, and can feel disappointed if there arent any that I have picked up on. I'm not always in the mood to deal with certain ic behaviors or the same sort of conversation so if someone seems like they dont do much variety I might seek out others until I'm in the mood for it. It is rarely a dealbreaker for me, unless I see someone getting oocly pushy or mean about it, but most people don't.

@silverfox I enjoy my PCs failures too even if nobody notices, except my husband who asks why I am snort-laughing. It happens quite often on my knight.

I admit I looked at roll20 because I really want to run a small FS game to get back in the saddle without the complications of a mush. But I can't figure it out. A lot of my current frustrations and restlessness could be solved if I could just run the equivalent of a biweekly prp with PCs I could really get to know/see develop as their ST. I realized what I want is more of a online tabletop thing, where there can be 1 on 1 slower rp inbetween but I havent seen any platforms that I can understand. also roll20 had the cthulu thing and I would love to do that for awhile.

Unfortunately I find that the tools that could in theory help identify people who are open to whatever particular kind of horrible my PCs have in them/about them have often backfired when I have tried to use them. Maybe I should give them a try again but I'm leery.

Because I-player have no difficulty in engaging I scenes that involve certain subjects doesnt mean that I want every PC who has that in their background or who is open to incorporating that into their play to feel entitled to my time or to approach me because they are super excited about getting their <subject> on; and sometimes people assume because you are open it means you expect THEM to be open to that subject to play with you or they assume you are a <subject> fiend that is only into that kind of play.

This is compounded when you are in mixed company as far as people wanting to ask oocly if something would be welcome, or touching base oocly.

When you can find people who are willing to push ic boundaries while respecting ooc ones, and who are trustworthy to handle experimentation with difficult subjects but dont then weaponize it oocly later though, that really can be amazing. They're definitely out there.

I think a lot of people love doing horrible things to their PCs so that others will pay attention to them. Sometimes it's not entirely clear where the line of compelling/annoying is.

Like I think almost everyone but the person who generates it eventually grows tired of the PC that is constantly needing to be rescued from kidnappers/rapists/assassins every week. And a lot of people get tired of the being a total unrelenting jerk ic for Reasons You Should Unravel (but forget about reciprocal play)?

But when you are talking about stuff like trauma, ect, you do run into people's leeriness about whether you are a sane person to play or with or running into RL discomfort/distaste. And if you are not very attuned to reading the room you can get in real trouble real quick.

I have to have trauma or some kind of major flaw in all my PCs to find then interesting. I dont think everyone has to be this way but it's just who I am as a storyteller/RPer. How much I play it depends on whether or not I am able to tell if the other person will enjoy it, or at least be open to it. It might be that some who have RPed with me on some PCs have the impression that I don't have interest in those things because I have not gotten a read to find out if it would be welcome or not.

There are very few off topic RP subjects for me; I admit that I do not do age play or pedophilia ever. (Though I have had PCs that were involved in child marriage or who were abused as kids that is background only and never explicitly talked about). Literally nothing else bothers me. I may not alwats choose to engage in onscreen acting out of other stuff depending on the PC, player, or game rules, but I have no problems with people who do and arent forcing it on others.

And I've met a ton of people who do the same, they just arent infamous because they dont need to shove people's faces in it indiscriminately. I am always grateful when I find those folks and they often fuel my creativity and have sustained my interest in mushing this whole time. I suspect there are more people out there that I sadly miss because i am reserved about expressing RP prefs in an audience I dont know yet, but that's no one's fault but mine for taking a safer route maybe.

I think I might need to call in tomorrow to calm nerves. Every day I have gone in to work despite road conditions, and then end up being held up, and the weather deteriorates before I have to leave. I love my coworkers, but I had to hike up hill after (safely, out of the way) abandoning my car at the base of a hill and hiking into my neighborhood (in my bank clothes) yesterday and almost had to do the same today (thank goodness for a well timed placement of a patch that had been shoveled to the pavement to dig out a car that gave me enough of a run to make the final ascent) and I think I'm going to just not chance it tomorrow if the roads are at all icy.

Still dealing with flu complications and this fucking job is barely above minimum wage, so I think I'm just gonna choose safety and no palpitations tomorrow, and stay home.

I said that I personally find more success at being happy on a game if I adjust my expectations to what the game seems to be realistically provide. If I'm going to stay on the game.

If when examining what those expectations should be (including things that I might be doing that could be sabotaging the results) I find that it's not going to be fun for me, I leave. But I do not do so because I assume that people had nothing to offer there. Sometimes you just never have the chance because either you do not fit, or frankly there are a lot places where it's hard to break in where people will invest in your story, period, no matter how awesome you are and they are.

So you have the choice to see if you'd like to give it a go with adjusted expectations, or go find somewhere else.

I like this discussed in the "RP Fantasy vs reality" framework because that kind of automatically puts the idea there that expectations and adjustments to the reality of what you have in the environment you are in.

If people do not want to "settle" then that's fine--lots of folks congregate with like minded folks. Whether that is a close knit subgroup on a larger game or people forming an invite only place so that they have quality control, ect. You do what you do when you need to do it, there isn't anything wrong with that.

I just happen though to have seen people self sabotaging with expectations and behavior. I have self-sabotaged with expectations and behavior. In reality, every time I have has differences in the RP reality vs what I get to the point that i no longer enjoy being there, 99.9 percent of the time it is not because nobody else is interested in meaningful play or risky play that might involve their PC being drawn in directions they hadn't planned on (I am sure other people on the same game even though would have different experiences than me), it is largely about expectations (including those that I wasn't aware that I had). Sometimes if I can tweak them, I do find more of what I am looking for. Sometimes not.