@gasket I would just trust your friends' intellegence to get out if things get dicey...and I commend your willingness to allow them to have their own experience. I get on with quite a few "hated" people on games, and have appreciated the people who put aside their dislike of that person and not shit all over me for my interactions with them.
Posts made by mietze
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RE: The Apology Thread
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RE: The Apology Thread
It takes a lot for me to cut someone off or out of my life. A pattern. Most often one that is repeated not just with me but a variety of people. Generally there are not magic words in that instance that repair things, but bravery in making an effort is always a good thing. Usually there's no real reason to gossip or whatever--that person has just shown that they neither value nor wish your company (except for convenience or whatever). So it's easy to detach.
There are very few folks I would refuse to be on a MUSH with or interact with. I'm not sure that the two I can think of offhand are even playing anymore; but were I to run across them there'd be no reason to raise an alarm, or even tell anyone about it unless they slipped into old behaviors I'd report anyway.
I haven't seen any more instance of toxic MUSH interactions or grudge holding than I have with PTAs and school groups, workplace environments, or even families. Honestly, I've seen far more people get over things and move on and interact on mushes, esp years down the road, because of the distance of online text environment vs. visceral reaction of a face to face negative interaction.
I think what makes something toxic is bystanders more than anything else. Are people eager to participate in the whisper campaign? Are they unwilling to tell their friends to pull their heads out of their asses? Are they afraid to call out bad behavior of a friend while also coddling that friends overreacting butt hurt over a minor offense, and willing to obey demands to isolate the disliked person? Is there a basic standard of behavior expected regardless of popularity and contributions to a game?
To me that by far influences how toxic a place or community is than what words people say in regards to "I'm sorry" or "I forgive you."
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RE: Sleepy boredom...
I love the squishy noob/human larva stage! Probably because mostly I've had cuddlers. I love toddlers and teens the best though.
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RE: RL Anger
Either my toddler ate a googly eye at the parent-child class we went to yesterday (we did do a craft that had them but he wasn't interested and didn't even go near the art table) or his shit is winking at me. Either way, happy Wednesday to me!
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RE: Shadows Over Reno
I don't think it's unrecoverable either. :). If things need to be on snooze mode now for awhile I think that's fine as long as it's disclosed. Still loving from Eldritch onwards I have seen WoD places be upfront about the lulls (even though honesty makes people totally freak the fuck out too!)
But it is super frustrating. A little easier perhaps to deal with when you've got a prior association/trust. But be honest, I think whether they express it, most folks would be just a little irritated.
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RE: Shadows Over Reno
I have extraordinary patience for apps, since for whatever reason I seem to be a kiss of death app (with a few rare exceptions). I never got approved on TR with a turn around time of less than 2 weeks (even though I never had anything "special")--even when I was a staffer, and even when it was in a sphere in which I was on good terms with the sphere staff (so, no favoritism on at least look/respond even, jeez did I get the short end of the stick). On a battlestar game I once waited over a week in chargen, because the app person would tell me one thing wrong with my app and then not respond to anything for at least 24 hours--I would correct the one thing they'd mentioned immediately, and then they'd say "Oh yeah, i forgot about X too". They did this 4 times. Until they couldn't log in, and I got "assistance" from another staffer who then complained about all the things that the original one had told me to set up like that. And then never logged in, and I got handed off to a third!
However, it is NOT bad or wrong to feel angst over that kind of lag in CG. Because you are missing out on meeting folks to form up (honestly, I don't know that I would ever worry about permanently missing out on metaplot on a WoD place, but I understand why it can feel urgent!). It is super hard to see people log in post your submission and get approved in less than half the time while you're still waiting on approval after correction. RL sucks, but it also has an impact to the game, like it or not. It is what it is. It's not unreasonable or mean for someone to be annoyed at slipping through the cracks, and at least (I hope) Lithium is doing whatever she can politely in the +job and pinging and venting about it elsewhere vs. being one of those people screaming and crying and ranting and pouting on pub chan. (It used to piss me off to see those folks get approval beause they threw fits on the game, while I was still waiting to be approved after getting a "if everything looks good, let me know and I will approve you!" response on my job, responding immediately with a "Yes, thank you very much!" and still waiting 72 hours later.
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RE: Good TV
Arrow grew on me over time despite how cheesy it got. (Plus whatsherface the bad guy's daughter is hot!)
While I though Flash was cute in Arrow I couldn't make it past the first episode in the new series.
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RE: The Apology Thread
I would say that with the exception of 3 folks my local "chosen family" are all folks that I initially met via mushing. Hell, I met my spouse mushing. I have established friendships with many more. Throughout the years I've hosted and hung out with a ton of people.
I have a broad base of friendships and social network via non-MUSH pursuits as well. There are PTA and church and volunteering or interest group friends too, of varying degrees of intimacy.
I do care about people--a lot. It doesn't really stop me from distancing if their behavior warrants it or promote reliance on people inappropriately. There are many folks online I enjoy shooting the shit with ooc but don't prefer their play style (or they don't like mine), and people I do enjoy rp wise that I don't care to deepen friendships with (and I assume many people who do not want that with me!)
I think your degree of sociability on mushes is not some moral or niceness thing as much as how you tend to operate socially in any circumstances. There are some folks that upon first meeting would be happy to give you a lift or take in your life story or bring you dinner, ect. Others take a long while to warm up. Or wouldn't until you reach intimate friend/family status. There are some folks who don't call someone a friend until there is a high degree of mutual bondedness--others view everyone as a friend to be treated that way until proven otherwise. There's variety. And that's fine by me!
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RE: Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning
Honestly, I don't think narcissts who view other players as bit pieces to be manipulated and/or used for that person's enjoyment are a rare commodity on mushes--and there are a lot of game ruiners (even multiple times offenders) who never make the big time hit lists (and probably would reject that categorization of themselves and truly believe it).
I do think that the Arx folks have a good handle and spine about these things for what I know oocly. So I'd worry less in that environment than a more inattentive/erratic one (which also seems to be a common factor when games get ruined--though I'm not shy about my opinion that /no/ player ruins a game; it's staff's responsibility and usually is tied into not nipping things in the bud.)
The main downside is tying yourself to a historically problematic person is either wasting a lot of time and energy if you have staff that are on the ball and yoink them if problems crop up again, or getting caught in the echo chamber and buying into the ooc manipulations which then unintentionally hurt others and damage your own reputation.
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RE: Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning
I had a reasonably sane and enjoyable experience with him when we played. This may be because he didn't think I had anything to offer ICly or oocly and thus it was just fun play rather than the manipulation game? There were tons more people on that game I found more unfun both ICly and oocly. I think the danger zone seems to be if you are a rival or he views you as a stepping stone.
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RE: Shadows Over Reno
You're not probably going to play with everyone on any given game anyway. In general I tried to treat folks as I'd like to be treated. Given a chance with an open mind, make allowances for someone having an off night, ect.
Most of my horrific ooc and ic experiences have been with people who write beautiful, detailed, what some might call overly long descs. But that is not why they were bad, it just reflects the nature of games and circles that I'm attracted to as a player. And since I stopped looking altogether my last year of play, I found myself experiencing the same range of quality as I always had, perhaps even improved a bit because I did not prescreen people on wiki or object description, so I didn't avoid as many people on that filter--I just culled people after 1-3 scenes depending.
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RE: The Apology Thread
I am all for apologizing about past behavior that has hurt/disrespected people. But when it's accompanied with a hefty dose of "I'm sorry you're so lame," it come across as an attack. Same with the "I'm sorry I'm the worst person ever to walk to earth" bullshit. Maybe this is just the fact that I was raised by a narcisstic alcoholic asshole, but apologies made in that manner can be actual attacks or slams. I've seen it quite a bit in gaming, RL, you name it. It's why I think if you want to come across as genuine apology (vs confessions of being a dick once upon a time, hey, I think we've all been there), just saying "I'm sorry" does not invalidate dickishness afterwards.
Public apologies that are non specific (vs confessions) also run the risk of anger by other folks who feel similarly wronged by that person feeling like they're getting a second slap when that's not acknowledged. (I see that more often online than RL), mostly because other people who have been subjected to the behavior physically standing in the room are not as easily overlooked either accidentally or on purpose.
Apologies are by their nature risky. You are extending vulnerability by acknowledging your role in harming (shallow to deep) someone else. There is no guarantee of acceptance. It's not a face saving measure. Sometimes it opens up old wounds. I think sometimes folks are not always aware of that. But I do think that's why a "but" or "if" apology makes many people so angry again.
Anyway, just my thoughts as someone who's had to apologize many many times online and RL to a wide variety of people,with results ranging from being told in no uncertain terms id never be welcome in that person's life again, to a repair and strengthening of a vital relationship and most often of the dull "thanks I appreciate that" inbetween.
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RE: Shadows Over Reno
I will confess that the last year I MUSH I almost never looked at anyone ever. If I got spammed with it in every scene I didn't need to, plus RfK's awful room spamming code every time someone looked at someone else cured me of the habit. And the other place I played on most often had standard clothing descs and screenscrolling personal bits full of flowing hair in the breeze and jovial orbs were discouraged.
So if someone had a crappy desc, it did not affect my desire/willingness to play with them, if they posed well.
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RE: RL things I love
My turkey farmer had all his birds grow monstrous huge this year, so I have a 24 pounder and an 18 pounder this year! I'm thinking I'll freeze the 18 since while I do have a huge crowd this year I don't think we will need 40 lbs of turkey, even allowing for generous leftovers sharing! Driving out to the farm is one of my favorite tgiving traditions and I will be too excited to sleep much tonight because I love cooking big meals!
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RE: The Apology Thread
Seems like perhaps this should be seen more as a confession thread (which definitely has its own merit).
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RE: RL things I love
Getting all the paperwork registration done (and getting to hang out with my eldest for the incoming 10 grader orientation/AP info night) for my oldest 3 kids to enter high school for the first time (our district is moving from a Jr high model of 7-9/10-12 schools to a middle school/comprehensive high school of 6-8/9-12 model for secondary grades--so they all move up together instead of me having to split school again) and starting the process for preschool registration for my youngest...at the same time.
It is a sweet reminder of how fast time moves and how precious this time is...and how much I love being a mom.
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RE: The Apology Thread
Ark, private if possible, but I think it can always be personal. Otherwise, most likely your target person(s) won't realize it (for good or ill). That's why those dumbass generic staff "reminder" posts about specific things but couched in general language never work either.
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RE: The Apology Thread
Yep, that's why I said unless you are interested in repairing/acknowledging your harm/annoyance to someone else without justification, you should wait. If your state is "sorry that I brushed up against your hypersensitivity," then it's not the apologetic one.
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RE: The Apology Thread
If you want an apology to be taken seriously, I suggest the following:
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Make it personal and private, if the offense was towards a person and was not a psycho hosebeast explosion publicly. Generic Sorry I Was A Butt To Some People "apologies" come across about as sincere and are about as effective as those cop out Some People Need To/Not generic gutless staff finger waggling posts on Bb1.
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Don't apologize to make yourself look/feel better. Apologize because you feel you genuinely sorry about the hurt/stress/inconvenience you cause someone, and you want to recognize that without justification. If you're not and/or there's no relationship there to repair (either as an acquaintance you'd like to keep/someone you'd like a good working relationship with/a friendship), then you probably aren't going to approach it in a sincere way.
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As hard as it is, if you are apologizing then avoid bringing up all the ways it's really generous of you to be doing this towards someone so sensitive/triggered/that has no life unlike yourself. If you can't avoid that, wait until you can. Or don't apologize, because you're still more interested in making your point rather than repairing something.
I have done my share of apologizing (including to people here). If you're still in the stage of "Man, I didn't realize how touchy they were! I guess I should say sorry that I brushed up against their butthurt." You're just not there yet. And that's okay.
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