Arx's Elevation Situation

saosmash · Dec 17, 2019, 10:08 PM

@mietze The expectations are for self-rule and lieges aren't supposed to intervene -- the helpfile goes into this extensively. That doesn't mean there are no obligations, though-- the specific obligation a liege owes a vassal includes protection which does include from threats. Basically staff specifically constructed the theme so that lieges would not have a lot of power to come in and stomp around and make their vassals do what they say, but there's still an oath between liege and vassal that promises protection and justice in exchange for fealty.

peasoupling · Dec 17, 2019, 10:09 PM

I feel like the problem, sometimes, is that people are logged in to the same server, but playing different games. Some people's views on what the game is about are so alien to me that I admit it takes me some effort to see it from their angle.

Three-Eyed Crow · Dec 17, 2019, 10:10 PM

I'm very curious what the game would even look like with dominion implemented at this point, given that the growth that's taken place outside it would never be comparable to something more gated with more actual checks on armies and lands and stuff. Maybe it's not even desirable if the current elevations are what people want. Idk. It's one more mini-game I have zero interest in but so are lots of things and that's ok.

mietze · Dec 17, 2019, 10:11 PM

And the truth of the matter is, that NOT every noble house is going to be a Great House. Ever. I mean, I'm sorry. But that is really part of the mindset that can be really disheartening.

Are there some people that really are going to charge for that now that they know it's within the scope of possibilities for the game, yes.

Are there some people who are going to charge hard and expect EVERYTHING to change for them and magical oodles of increased goodies, plot, and importance to other PCs once they get the new title--and then they're going to be disappointed when it doesn't bring that? Yeah, I think probably!

But do the majority of even PC houses want it, no they don't. There are many that are never going to rise above what they are for a variety of factors (interest, being able to stay populated by PCs, ect). It does take work. Not every org is going to have people who are equipped and willing/able to do that work, and while I suppose it is possible for someone to stockpile all on their lonesome, it will take awhile.

thesuntsar · Dec 17, 2019, 10:17 PM

@AeriaNyx

AeriaNyx · Dec 17, 2019, 10:23 PM

@thesuntsar I said it's unlikely! Sheeeeesh.

Keep it up and you'll have a rebellion on your hands!

mietze · Dec 17, 2019, 10:25 PM

Also, why are people pushing that anyone who wants elevation wants it because they don't like their liege or because the player just wants a new title for their sheet?

That seems pretty unnecessarily hostile an assumption.

I'll use Tessere for an example. In the background/history that was /written/ for the house, they'd been demoted generations ago, and the family has been trying to claw its way back for 200 years, as a generational goal that people have more or less been building upon.

Maybe other houses do not have that written so plainly onto their house entry that anyone can read, but I do think it is not out of the realm of possibility that sort of thing factors into genuine IC interest and goals. Maybe some do (since people rarely seem to read the entries for even their own houses and what they do historically/produce, ect, much less anyone else's entries).

thesuntsar · Dec 17, 2019, 10:26 PM

@AeriaNyx I posted that I was taking a hard break from Arx for the next couple of weeks. Please don't tag me in anything else. Thanks.

bear_necessities · Dec 17, 2019, 10:26 PM

Arx's elevation situation isn't going to fix itself without a domain system, and a domain system is probably going to change so much that everyone's going to bitch about it and nobody is going to be very happy about it. And tbh I don't even know if it is possible to implement a system with how much IC handshaking agreements have gone on, growth, etc., without resetting everybody back to 0 and starting over again and boy is that gonna cause another 30 pages on the peeve board (maybe even more!)

I don't know what the solution here is except that Arx can't be all the things and I don't know if it being a mini civ game is the right direction for it anyway. Maybe the BEST solution at this point would be to just let the PC houses continue to grow as they will with some rails in place. If that means there's 6 or 7 or 14 Great Houses? I don't really see what the PROBLEM is, as long as the population can sustain that many Great Houses, and everyone's given the same rules and guidelines to follow.

The only issue I personally took with Pravus is that NO ONE ELSE had the rulebook here and so not all houses were on the same page (or even in the same book). And you can say "well they didn't ask" but there should've been something written.

Kanye Qwest · Dec 17, 2019, 10:34 PM

It's the age old problem. People get mad when other people get things, because it seems like that's a thing they will not get, now. Those same people then get a thing and point out how unfair and awful it is that anyone is mad at them, because there was that one time they didn't get the thing but someone else did. Other people get sad because things don't always make sense. Sometimes people have cold sores.

My main thoughts:
it is important to remember that the PCs are NOT THE MAJORITY OF THE PEERAGE. There will never, ever, be a point where all the noble houses are duchies.

People want to attain things and feel like they have made an impact in the game world. This elevation thing is just one of the shapes that takes.

The only way to actually fix this, imo, is to get the systems in and tested and then do a hard reboot/time skip/wipe. Beta!

bear_necessities · Dec 17, 2019, 10:35 PM

@Kanye-Qwest said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

The only way to actually fix this, imo, is to get the systems in and tested and then do a hard reboot/time skip/wipe. Beta!

I agree.

bored · Dec 17, 2019, 10:40 PM

@Pyrephox said in Arx's Elevation Situation:

Playing a game with an ostensibly feudal theme should come, I'd hope, with an understanding that nothing about it is ICly 'fair', and it really shouldn't be.

If you're playing a political game, that is. If you're playing a game where every house is entitled to eternal expansion and inflation and the idea is just how you gather the resources to do that, then no, it's not a particular concern. That's not a theme that particularly interests me, and never did.
...
But that's fine - I rarely even log into the game anymore, and it increasingly doesn't do things that I'm interested in, but which many many people manifestly are.

I don't disagree with any of your analysis. And you found the solution. If you don't like enforced PvE (that nonetheless will occasionally have PvP consequences/implications), don't play Arx.

The only issue is you have people who omg love Arx to death forever but also really really obviously want nothing more than to fuck up Pravus as hard as they can, because how dare they benefit by PvE?!? They need to pick one.

Three-Eyed Crow · Dec 17, 2019, 10:41 PM

@Kanye-Qwest
I long for a time jump and all new PCs/new chessboard but I accept I'm in the vast vast minority. Maybe someday tho!

Meg · Dec 17, 2019, 10:43 PM

@Kanye-Qwest I often get sad for no reason at all.

This has nothing to do with this topic. But I agree with everything you say. Also you are awesome.

Caryatid · Dec 17, 2019, 10:52 PM

Bring on the hard wipe and time jump. I am there for it. Tessere's elevation (or, really, their return to their former state) was baked into their story and having successfully spent a year working on it, proving just how amazing they are, and introducing luxury brocade... I'm ready. Bring on the dark future.