RL Anger

Cupcake

@Lisse24 It is easily explained by the maxim:

When you're accustomed to Privilege, Equality feels Like Oppression.

Fundamentally, Christianity is a faith that puts a focus on proselytizing, and comes from a power base that could overpower any kind of "no, we don't want this" that they may have been faced with. That's been changing in the last few decades, as less people feel like there's a penalty for not choosing Christianity as a life choice.

Lisse24

@WTFE said in RL Anger:

You don't have to apologize for the actions of others. I'm just explaining to you why it is that Christians have such a bad name among non-Christians these days. Weirdly enough, I don't actually hate Christians (and I tend to tear capital-A Atheists a new asshole when they're being obnoxious about their anti-Christian rants). But boy HOWDY am I gun-shy around a newly introduced one until I figure out where they stand on things.

And, inevitably, that is going to hurt some who don't deserve it.

The rift between the Christian community--especially its more vocal and "conservative" element (although it baffles me to this day what they think they're "conserving" with their foolishness!)--and the non-Christian community will take time and effort to close. And, while this may seem unfair (and could very well be), it will be the Christians taking the bulk of the effort for this wound to heal.

I think we're completely on the same page with this. Christians have definitely dug a hole for themselves, not because I think the conservative, fundamentalist elements are the majority of Christians, but we certainly were silent and let them spread their lies because they were our 'brothers.'

I think a lot of Christians, like me, realize that we need to take the first steps, and I know you don't see it, but there is a lot of good work being done. Yes, Rob Bell was shunned by the Evangelical community for a bit when he first made a stand, but they are slowly opening up and listening to him, as they are with the Gungors and people like Mike McHargue. It's encouraging that when I go to Goodreads and look at Popular Christian nonfiction, among the Lewis, Tozer, and Piper, there's also Don Miller. It helps that more theologically orthodox voices like Phil Vischer (the VeggieTales guy) and the people from Relevant and many Christian intellectuals are pointing to these voices and saying, "We need to do something."

So yes, we do hear you and we are listening, it may just not be reflected in the media that you're seeing yet.

Kanye Qwest

Oh boy. I grew up in an extremely small, extremely white town in Texas. I went to church faithfully until my teenage years, at which point my family kind of melted down and I became the community pariah.

I was accused of witchcraft.

I was accused of being 'in league with the devil' and leading young men astray.

A non denominational evangelical preacher was once called in to BLESS and EXORCISE a room I had slept in, at a sleepover.

I was harrassed, bullied, and sabotaged by grown ass adults from ages 14 until I moved away.

As long as there are fringe Christians who choose to be insane, hateful, dark ages LARPers, there will be a strong averse reaction to those fringe splinters of the faith, because those views are not victimless. Like any faith, creed, or ethnicity, all youc an do is live your life showing you are not like that.

ETA: i was not actually in league with the devil. Just to be clear. If I HAD been, there'd be one less small town in Texas.

Ganymede

@Kanye-Qwest said in RL Anger:

As long as there are fringe Christians who choose to be insane, hateful, dark ages LARPers, there will be a strong averse reaction to those fringe splinters of the faith, because those views are not victimless.

And now we know how mainstream Muslims feel.

Lain

My parents were both members of Alcoholics Anonymous, which is more a religious cult than it is an alcoholism treatment program. They indoctrinated me with that crap until I started seriously questioning it at around age fifteen or sixteen.

AA has its own theology man. Shit is nuts. One thing I was taught is that if I had one beer I'd immediately turn into the most over-the-top degenerate caricature of an alcoholic. Turns out, not really. I've never shown up to school or work drunk or fucked up, I've never gotten blasted on a night before I had an obligation like work, etc.

I had a rave/drug phase in my early to mid twenties but that has come and gone. Good times, don't regret it. Today, I will have a drink or two and smoke a bowl once per week or so while I watch a movie/listen to music. I would like to drop some acid again in my lifetime but I'm not going to go out of my way to procure it unless it's for a special occasion.

I'm an atheist now.

Ghost

@Lisse24 I'm going to venture to say that at least in America, no one has a true problem with Christianity.

In that, I mean, I don't think anyone has a problem with the concept of the monotheistic religion that preaches loving your neighbor and believing in good deeds until the point that you are accepted into heaven.

In fact, I'm going to venture to say that, historically, no one had a problem with these ideas, at all.

Christians (and many other followers of other religions that promise a "Deeds for Afterlife" scenario) tend to not stay in their lane, and that's a pretty big problem in the United States right now.

IMPORTANT NOTE:In America's current political climate, a good amount of the strife right now comes from the almost universally shared belief that if one of the two political parties gains control, then the needs and interests of the people from the opposing political party will not only fall onto deaf ears, but will be in jeopardy.

I don't think there would be any major problems with Christianity in the states right now were it not for a few core things:

One political party has quadrupled down on representing Christianity, running on God-centric tickets, in a country with freedom of religion for all religions. This places a face to a political movement. See Important Note above. Many of these candidates have run against women's medical rights, LGBTQ rights, and per Important Note above, creates a feeling of the religion taking a stance via political domination.
Unchecked 501c(3) donations to charitable Christian organizations have been used to monetize, lobby, and successfully (through politics) lobby for unchecked political representation and donations towards candidates who... Important Note
Tongue-In-Cheek abuses of power have been cited as victories. Americans see people like Joel Osteen and prosperity ministers abuse the tax code to their benefit. Even in Phoenix, Arizona, Grand Canyon University is claiming victory left and right as a "Private, Christian, Affordable" university, despite having lobbied to rake in plenty of for-profit money on a lowered tax bracket after claiming eminent domain over whole city blocks of low income housing to ensure the campus was built where they wanted it to.
OtherChristian sect practices, such as Mormons, targeting illegal immigrants into their fold, providing them with jobs in Mormon businesses, access to Mormon lawyers to get their papers, but should they not tithe regularly, threats of excommunication, loss of their job, and loss of access to immigration process take place.

So...I'm with Ghandi.

In the United States, at least, where it is written into the Constitution that we are a nation of all faiths, the movements since the 50's that placed "God" in the "Pledge of Allegiance", the growing political affiliation, the lobbying of elected officials, attempted legislation against female reproductive systems, has been a steady stream (or slippery slope) of working its way towards dominance over other faiths and belief systems in American society.

Attacked for practicing my faith does not apply when said attack happens while trying to alter the lives, faiths, beliefs, and practices of others. Doing so is no one's right. No one truly has a right to be adhered to, obeyed, or given microphone time when it comes to trying to assert change on others from the approach of this is what's best for you, just do what I say.

So do people have a problem with Christianity? No. It's the behavior and failure of many modern-day Christians (at least in America) to comfortably allow people to live different lives, and it seems that since preaching and handing out fliers is failing, the political control approach is being taken, and referred to as victory when legislation removes the ability to choose differently from others.

It's a problem. I, personally, have no issues with any of the plethora of Christian approaches in theory, but it's the behaviors and practices that take place when confronted with non-Christians that are of issue.

Coin

Gandhi was a piece of shit, though, whose relationship between what he preached and what he practiced was dichotomous at best and hypocritical at worst.

I mean, I understand what he's trying to say and don't think he's wrong (per se, superficially speaking, though I have long and involved opinions on the harms of religion as a whole unto society which I don't regularly go on rants about because why bother) but I find it ironic that he'd be the one saying that sort of thing.

Just as a tangent, I guess.

Ghost

Another quick note, which I think is constructive and fair.

Right now, in America, you do not see the following:

Jews lobbying through political parties to enforce the Sabbath be recognized on a political level
Hindus lobbying against the cattle industry and the killing of cows
Buddhists lobbying to require 1 hour of guided meditation on the cycle of Samsara
Followers of Islam lobbying to require multiple sessions of prayer towards Mecca, per day, in schools.
Shinto followers lobbying for mandatory days off of work on death holidays to honor passed ancestors.

I could go on, but my point is this:

American Christians and Mormons are on the move. They're claiming eminent domain, using tax-free donations to run profit empires, and actively lobbying for the promotion of their own faith as a social standard above the views and beliefs of other cultures and religions. This is nowhere near something other religions are attempting to do in American society, and when it comes to questioning whether or not Christians are oppressed in America, it's important to ask why.

This is why.

AFTERTHOUGHT: Perhaps the American Christian community should be asking themselves why, despite their message being about love, so many Americans feel as if they need to protect themselves from Christians?

surreality

My issue with Christianity is much of what @Ghost describes, re: forcing the rest of the world to conform to Christianity's tenets.

Your religion, whatever it is, has rules. They are extra rules you chose when you chose your religion, or chose to remain with the religion you were raised with. They are extra, they are yours, they are your responsibility to adhere to. They are not the obligation of the remainder of society to adhere to along with you if they have made different choices; they have their own extra rules to worry about.

I can empathize with wanting society to make that easier by not providing for or allowing things that are not permitted by (generic) your religion, but that is not society's responsibility: it is (generic) yours as a practitioner of that faith.

Thenomain

@Cupcake said in RL Anger:

@Lisse24 It is easily explained by the maxim:

When you're accustomed to Privilege, Equality feels Like Oppression.

I think this is the more general issue that we as Americans are trying to deal with on a whole bunch of levels, not just that of belief. Race and gender are hitting hard here as well, lately.

The confusion of the discussion isn't helped that anger is becoming an expectation, if not the norm. As far as I'm concerned, Susan Fowler is this generation's best feminist.

Lain

@Ghost Americans like to bitch about crazy Christian crap because Christianity is the dominant religion in the region (North America) and as a consequence of that their crazies get a lot more leeway than the crazies of any other religion.

It has nothing to do with the content of the religion and everything to do with the one that is dominant and therefore the one that most of us have to tolerate in spite of their insanity.

Ghost

Agreed with @surreality

I've heard from time to time statements like "why should I have to deal with <issue> when it's against my faith?".

The question to this is (just using <issue> as an example, not here to discuss if it's right or wrong): "Are you truly dealing with it, or offended by the idea that you're living in a world where others partake in it?"

If you do not believe in doing a specific thing, then by not partaking in doing these things, one is not only not dealing with it, but they're practicing their belief. This is a good thing and has many positive examples!

But if it's still not okay to simply not partake, and actions are taken to try to create a world where others are not only barred from doing so, but could be punished for doing so, then it is not a statement of "I do not believe in doing these things", but instead: "It is unacceptable for me to allow others to do these things."

No one has a problem with people choosing to not partake in these things, but in a free society, the imposition of force to deny others by means of religion and personal preference isn't your field to tend. It's theirs.

Ghost

@Lain said in RL Anger:

@Ghost Americans like to bitch about crazy Christian crap because Christianity is the dominant religion in the region (North America) and as a consequence of that their crazies get a lot more leeway than the crazies of any other religion.

It has nothing to do with the content of the religion and everything to do with the one that is dominant and therefore the one that most of us have to tolerate in spite of their insanity.

Agreed and well spoken.

I live a few miles away from a site where a Hindu group petitioned to create a temple. The city council is heavily Mormon, and the empty site of the proposed temple was zoned for religious structures. It was already a part of the city zoning that a temple could be built there.

After the Hindu group had already placed thousands of dollars into getting permits to break ground, the city council held an emergency session and had the proposed site of the temple re-zoned to block it's building.

Right across the street from that site?

A Mormon temple.

ANOTHER FUN FACT: Here in Arizona (which boasts a staggering number of Evangelicals and Mormons in city government) it was approved that Mormon "Seminaries" could be built across the street from public high school (paid for by tax dollars). These Seminaries are attached to the school and were originally designed for Mormon students to meet separately on school grounds from the other students, but it was later written into the school board's code that any student who chose to go to the Seminary instead of their homeroom at the start of the day to attend teenage Mormon gatherings would receive school credits towards their graduation.

Lain

Political ideology supplanted religion in the 20th century. Now people cleave to preconceived notions about how governments and societies ought to be run in the face of evidence to the contrary, instead of explicit supernatural entities.

What is your ~~religion~~ political ideology (definitely NOT religion)?

surreality

While I was growing up, the anti-D&D fervor was enormous. All of my friends played, but for years I wasn't allowed.

Many years later, I found the book she had read, full of insane propaganda. It insisted that a few pages into the introduction of the book, there was a recitation for all players that must be read aloud before every game, that was a pledge of allegiance to Satan directly.

She could have seen, at any time, for herself, that this was anything but true. She didn't, because these voices 'spoke for her faith', and therefore they were not to be questioned. Even when she finally permitted me to play, this tormented her. She would look at me and start crying, because she genuinely believed in her heart that I had sworn a vow to Satan and was thus going to hell.

This went on for years.

I can forgive my mother for being, essentially, stupid.

I cannot forgive the hate-mongering liar that wrote that book to exploit my mother's faith and fear for a quick buck, because no matter how stupid, that led her and I to suffer in ways that were completely fucking needless.

Ghost

@Lain said in RL Anger:

What is your religion political ideology (definitely NOT religion)?

Myself, personally? I'm my own, subjective life experience. If there's god(s), then I'm an ant incapable of choosing what their name is, and am comfortable with the idea of their being gods every bit as I am there being not. I'm the star of my own limited, mortal experience. I'm hesitant to claim what a GOD wants and more comfortable claiming what I want, which is usually fish tacos on Tuesday.

I was raised Catholic to the point of Confirmation, but then dispersed from the Catholic church for personal reasons mostly stemming towards the philosophical. I believe that people need to live up to their facades and the concept that if you do something you claim to not believe in, then you cannot claim to not believe in it.

So when I say the things I've said, it's not to attack ONE ideology. I've read plenty of history and even with religions predating Judaism, it's fairly constant that every era of our human society has included religious domination trying to enforce itself, politically, on the masses.

I don't see any really good reason why we shouldn't assume we're immune to this in 2017.

Lain

@Ghost I was being pretty tongue-in-cheek about that. I think political ideology today is a pretty bad deal, and we're seeing it rear its ugly head again this century. Political indoctrination has similar consequences as religious indoctrination. It's basically the same exact psychology copy-pasted but with a secular veneer.

surreality

@Ghost said in RL Anger:

I was raised Catholic to the point of Confirmation, but then dispersed from the Catholic church for personal reasons mostly stemming towards the philosophical. I believe that people need to live up to their facades and the concept that if you do something you claim to not believe in, then you cannot claim to not believe in it.

Shit, dude. Exactly the same here.

I got the "It's just what you do at that age," rationale, and I full-stop noped that right there.

I wasn't going to make a lifelong promise I had no idea if I could or would ever want to keep.

I didn't know if there was or wasn't a God who would give a shit what I did.

What I did know is that there were people, real feeling human beings, in that place, some of whom may just be there because 'that's what you do at that age' and some because they really believed. And if there was even one person in that church who kept those promises and believed sincerely, my presence as someone who 'just did what you do at that age' was grossly disrespectful to them, and I knew I could not do that.

Lain

@surreality said in RL Anger:

'that's what you do at that age'

Now, I'm not a religious nutter, but I will say in defense of Confirmation that I think rites of passage are important in culture. They're central to a people's way of life. Moderate religious people perform the rites of passage, and just the rites in general, do so with a sense of reverence, and make a point to display that they grok the emotional gravitas of these traditions, but otherwise don't obsess over them too much.

I think "Confirmation" is one of the least bad things that a religious institution can impose on its young members, frankly. To normal people who don't overthink this sort of thing, it's just a step toward becoming an adult as perceived by your community.

Lithium

@Lain Except that any sort of 'ceremony' that is considered a 'rite of passage' or not, is just another way to try and enforce control over others.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that if the rules of /most/ religions were actually adhered to, the world would actually be a better place. It's just that throughout the millennia human nature has corrupted and twisted those rules to benefit a few over the masses.

Having a belief structure can be a very powerful thing, it can be a source of motivation, or support, or an impetus to change and better ones life or the lives of others.

For the most part however, it is used as a means to attack, segregate, and harm.

Just like Islam itself is a fairly peaceful religion, people, humans, we fuck everything up if we can profit from it.