Coming in 2016 - Bump in the Night
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@Kanye-Qwest said:
@Sammi said:
@Kanye-Qwest said:
LOL you mad, though?
I realize that in your world you might think that people offer assistance with no expectation of gain when they're angry and that loquacity and criticism are indications of wrath. You have also stated your belief that only OOC communication (and not lack of communication) is a cause of people getting irritated with you (which is patently false). Quoting for relevance:
@Kanye-Qwest said:
All done with no OOC communication, so there's nothing to take personally.
Frankly, you shouldn't trust any of your intuitions. People don't behave the way you think they do, so stop making any assumptions and you'll fare a lot better.
I'm done trying to help you socialize better. Go off and annoy people in public places and then get all confused and huffy when they don't take kindly to it.
Thanks for the permission, bitch.
Classier.
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@Arkandel said:
@Kanye-Qwest You can be rude if you want, but does it need to be off-topic in a game's thread?
No? I've tried twice to return the focus of the conversation to BITN, but people are more interested in contributing to criticize. I'll stop engaging them.
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Is there an overall accounting of staff and player run stories regarding things that players should be able to see such as murder rates, indications of supernatural corruption in various groups, named NPC casualties, businesses affected and so on?
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@Sammi said:
Like this. Obviously, I'm not saying you're entitled for stating your preferences. I'm saying that your preferences indicate an intense sense of entitlement. I'm saying that what you do when you walk into a room where people are RPing is just think about yourself and then get upset when people don't bend over backwards to accommodate you.
How is that entitled and expecting the entire game and the rest of the player base to conform around your sandbox not entitled? Plenty of games have the expectation that public rp be accessible and scene sets conform to a universally accessible paradigm because of that. IE, saying, 'X scene is going on at Y' precludes anything else that anyone else might want to do, and staking claim on it in a sandbox edges out any other approach. Doesn't work in non-sandboxes at all. Just saying your way of doing things is a game culture thing and treating it as selfish or non-selfish is weird.
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@Apos
People having a private scene in a public place should take it to a +temproom if there's any conflict. The ease and availability of +temprooms makes that a no-brainer. The sense of entitlement is walking into a room and trying to enter a scene without making any attempt to ascertain if the scene is open or even what time of day it is in the narrative, and it is compounded by "entering" the scene with a non-interactive pose which places the burden of including the random new person on everybody else there. @Kanye-Qwest insists on no OOC communication. Do you want someone trying to enter your scene without so much as saying hi?Some households have cultures where the parents tell their children that they're special and deserve all the goodies. When those children go out into the big, wide world, the burden should not be on the rest of us to continue to give them what their parents told them they inherently deserved. I stand firmly against the proposal that this kind of behavior should be considered a matter of taste, and I believe that formative environments that indoctrinate people with this idea that others will always stretch to help them are maladaptive for the people who come out of them and a net burden on the greater community.
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@Sammi Every scene in public rooms would be open in some games, to make it not open would be a break of the game culture and incredibly rude, since you are forcing everyone else to conform to your own sandbox, ie being very entitled and imposing upon everyone else on the game. In that environment of course individuals would rp immediately, since being in public rooms is an actual advertisement and invitation to RP.
I really think you are confusing distinct and different gaming cultures with entitlement. Speaking to someone oocly would be flat out rude, since you are destroying the mood of their scene by doing so, much in the same way spamming people with ooc chatter in an intense scene would be on most games.
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@Sammi
Are you staff on this game? -
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@Sammi said:
The sense of entitlement is walking into a room and trying to enter a scene without making any attempt to ascertain if the scene is open or even what time of day it is in the narrative, and it is compounded by "entering" the scene with a non-interactive pose which places the burden of including the random new person on everybody else there. @Kanye-Qwest insists on no OOC communication.
I think you may be taking Kanye's comments too literally. My understanding is that he/she meant that there would be no OOC communication regarding whether or not he/she may enter the room and attempt to participate.
Sometimes, I enter a public room where there's RP going on, and I politely state that I'll make my entering pose a couple of poses down the line. I didn't ask the existing players where I could join or not, and it is reasonable to presume that I could if the scene was taking place in a public room. If my inclusion is inappropriate or unwanted, it is reasonable to presume that the existing participants would inform me of that and take their RP elsewhere. As you will likely concur, expecting people to take private scenes in a public place to a +temproom is reasonable.
I may have misread Kanye entirely, but I did not infer from his/her comments that he/she would wander in and fire off an ignorant pose.
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I encourage RP rooms being able to have few common descs from the grid to quickly put in place.
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@Apos said:
@Sammi Every scene in public rooms would be open in some games, to make it not open would be a break of the game culture and incredibly rude, since you are forcing everyone else to conform to your own sandbox, ie being very entitled and imposing upon everyone else on the game. In that environment of course individuals would rp immediately, since being in public rooms is an actual advertisement and invitation to RP.
I really think you are confusing distinct and different gaming cultures with entitlement. Speaking to someone oocly would be flat out rude, since you are destroying the mood of their scene by doing so, much in the same way spamming people with ooc chatter in an intense scene would be on most games.
Like I said, I don't believe that it should be treated as a matter of taste. I don't care if there are some games where someone coming into a scene gets treated like royalty. Any game where people in an ongoing scene are not permitted to take their scene elsewhere to preserve the narrative is doing a disservice to the people already in a scene.
In some parts of America, it's considered "polite" to lie outright. You are not permitted to give an honest answer to an honest question and if someone says, "Bless your heart," what they really mean is, "You're a fucking moron." That is a different culture, yes. Any culture that promotes dishonesty and toxicity is a bad culture, just like any culture that promotes the idea that an individual deserves to be waited on hand and foot. Some cultures believe in beating gays or mutilating vulvas or waging war for their gods. "It's another culture" is not a legitimate defense unless it can be applied to all cultures. It falls immediately if you can indicate that the other culture is harmful. I believe that Kanye's culture is mostly harmful to Kanye, hence why I was trying to explain some things about being collaborative. On the other side, while I enjoy helping people, I tire of those who exhibit learned helplessness and I feel like fully able people who need the same help repeatedly are unnecessarily burdensome.
@Kanye-Qwest said:
@Sammi
Are you staff on this game?Nope, and nor am I vindictive enough to volunteer because of you.
@Ganymede said:
Sometimes, I enter a public room where there's RP going on, and I politely state that I'll make my entering pose a couple of poses down the line. I didn't ask the existing players where I could join or not, and it is reasonable to presume that I could if the scene was taking place in a public room. If my inclusion is inappropriate or unwanted, it is reasonable to presume that the existing participants would inform me of that and take their RP elsewhere. As you will likely concur, expecting people to take private scenes in a public place to a +temproom is reasonable.
It's very reasonable (and I stated at the beginning that I believe people in a private scene should always vacate if other people want to use the public space), but all of that relies on some amount of OOC interaction even if you don't explicitly ask permission to join. When you jump in on an ongoing scene, you're going to first find out where and when the scene is taking place as well as a rough idea of the background activity. Often, the next participant in the queue will bulk up their existing pose in order to provide a set for the newcomer. All of those things that make for a collaborative experience fall under OOC communication, which Kanye posited is negative (since people take it personally).
I think you may be taking Kanye's comments too literally.
This may be, but Kanye has yet to make any attempt to revise or clarify their statements. They have called me a bitch multiple times. That sort of rejoinder is consistent with my reading of Kanye's statements as an indicator of personality and social expectations. When I make a reasoned and civil criticism and the result is being sworn at, I am disinclined to question my initial reading.
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@Sammi said:
This may be, but Kanye has yet to make any attempt to revise or clarify their statements. They have called me a bitch multiple times. That sort of rejoinder is consistent with my reading of Kanye's statements as an indicator of personality and social expectations.
To be fair, it is likely unreasonable to expect every comment posted on this board to be as reasoned and fair as you might consider yours to be. Plus, possessing an attitude or mindset of entitlement and self-righteousness is not the same as being generally boorish; many millennials, for instance, are quite genial, despite their beards.
The only difference between this forum and a Trump rally, mostly, is that people here aren't fearing for their safety for neither goose-stepping nor straight-arm raising their hand in support.
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@Kanye-Qwest trust all of your Darwin-is-awesome intuition. Because the only flaw with the awesome of Darwin is how her online time is limited because Australia is upside down.
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Why is making a generic entrance pose to a public room expecting that everyone will drop everything to entertain you, rather than to gauge what the other people are doing and if anyone seems to be open to interaction? Hell even when people have oocly agreed to meet there's often a neutral pose first if they don't know each other ICly if it's just a bump into scene?
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Usually someone can page or +ooc faster than an entrance pose if there is any issue to discuss.
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But why the /assumption/ that anyone that poses into a room that you're camping out inappropriately (if you cannot bear to have anyone else in that public room) means that they are demanding that you entertain them? That's the part I don't get. You can ignore them. For all you know, they're planning on meeting other people. Why must anyone assume any ill/princess intent of anyone in the first neutral pose?
I'm starting to think this attitude of assuming the absolute worst of everyone you don't already know is the hugest problem in MUSHing by far. Whether that's OMG if I go to a public room and run into people by god they're going to rip me a new asshole so I better only sit here in the OOC and make sure anyone who I go into RP with I triple make sure that they really REALLY do want to RP with me and never accept on first invitation because I need it in triplicate, to the OMG that shithead dared to come into the cafe and make a pose, who the fuck do they think they are, some kind of lord god king princess?
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Maybe we should spin this into it's own thread, but to weigh in, my main issue with closing off public RP, is that it makes it very hard on newcomers. I know this has been said before, but we are a dying hobby and anything we can do to make it easier on a newbie player to find RP, we should do. Why? Because if they actually find and like RP, they'll stick with the hobby longer, which means the hobby will be healthier and we'll all be happy.
I also don't think it's inherently bad to have your private scene interrupted. If I can take my scene from this morning as example:
My character and another char on BITN just figured out that we both knew about supernatural stuff. We wandered from a cafe onto the UMD Mall, where there was an idle player. We continued to play, but invited the player to join. Now, he was idle, so he didn't, but what if he had? Would that have changed the tenor of our scene? Of course. We would have been stopped before actually confirming that we were both saying what we thought we were. That would have led to several days of us both wondering. Would this have been bad? Well, I don't think there is bad in RP. I think there is just different. Our scene would have been different and would have led in a different direction, but I am confident that we could have made something interesting of it.
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@Kanye-Qwest
Sometimes the OOC asking can lead to more IC acceptance.
If I am in a public scene or a scene that has gone private scene in a public place I have no problem with people joining I ma in an IC public place after all.
But how you enter and join in appropriate. If someone tosses out Hey mind if I join? I will find a way to include them regardless of the spindling of IC mindset i might have to do to make that possible. We are all in the game together after all.
However if they say nothing OOC but just enter and start posing, to be this comes off as mildly rude. Not a big deal but still noticeable. In that case I would only involve them if it was what i think the my character would do and even then likely subconsciously lean a bit to the cool at best response to that person. -
@mietze said:
Why is making a generic entrance pose to a public room expecting that everyone will drop everything to entertain you, rather than to gauge what the other people are doing and if anyone seems to be open to interaction? Hell even when people have oocly agreed to meet there's often a neutral pose first if they don't know each other ICly if it's just a bump into scene?
You know what peeves me? I'll tell you anyway!
It peeves me when people take the time to wait for poses, see what other people are doing, and then try to take over the scene with their opening pose anyway doing something completely different than what it's already about. A bigger "fuck y'all" I can't easily imagine.
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A generic entrance pose to me is "so and so enters the coffee shop, <insert description of PC and clothing since nobody seems to read them on PC objects> and pauses for a moment, taking a look around as the fiddle with their coat."
My god that is horrific. What a total scene stealing asshole!!! Good on you.
Half the time when I have encountered these terrible people that enter a public room without begging permission or checking +where, I'm the one giving them the scene set when 2 people pose on by totally ignoring them and giving no info after taking a long time. So. I could see tossing something like the above to let people know the PC was incoming and waiting for a bit of a scene set, and to also test for activity.
Yeah, that is so totally the biggest fuck you ever.
No wonder people camp the ooc room and act like they're frightened to interact with anyone they don't know.
Edited to add: Sorry @arkandel , I misread your post, obviously. I'd blame no coffee yet, but honestly, I'm pretty much just in a mood today. Leaving this as is though because erasing it seems to be a wimpy thing to do. But yes, people totally ignoring everything to have things setting on fire or a robbery in progress disrupting everything is a peeve of mine too. I'm sorry I snapped at you, it was uncalled for. I can already tell--it's gonna be a /day/.
