Posts made by faraday

@Thenomain said in Difference between an NPC and a Staff PC?:

an NPC is part of the environment.

I like that definition from a MUSH context. A staffer should have no more investment in an NPC than they do in the sandstorm they just threw at the players. They might think it's neat, but it's part of the world and not their own personal viewpoint character for interacting with said world (which is more what a PC is all about).

I think the main concern isn't really the nomenclature, but the troubling behaviors that result. Like when a staffer is clearly playing a character like a PC, but is doing so in some shady manner under the guise of "but it's just a staff NPC". Whatever you call it, shady is shady.

I think it's an arbitrary distinction because the phrase "NPC" is kind of goofy, inconsistently used, and unclear when you're talking about MUSHes.

In a TTRPG there's a clear definition. There are players and there's a singular GM. PCs are characters controlled by the players, and NPCs are characters controlled by the singular GM. Even if your GM is running a pet NPC kinda like a PC (we've probably all seen that at some point), he's still an NPC by the very definition of the rules.

But on a MUSH, you now have a whole bunch of GMs. And when they're not GM-ing, they're often engaging with the game like a regular player would. The original definition just doesn't fit any more.

Then we have the character-bit angle. Some games use "PC" to refer to anybody with an @name-d character object, and "NPC" to refer to "extras" who are just emitted or entered into a combat system.

Despite all that, I still use the term NPC myself, but I wish we had a better one. Personally I use NPC for "recurring guest-star" type characters who are in the world but not part of the main cast, as it were.

@surreality said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I'm not sure where I stand on perks. In a lot of ways, it depends on the perk.

Absolutely. Intent and transparency also matter, and there's certainly a line at which "perks" become unethical.

For instance. "Staffers get first dibs on their favorite superheroes" seems like a reasonable perk. "Staffers get Tier 1 superheroes and everyone else gets Tier 2" rubs me the wrong way because it sets up an inherent power imbalance that strikes me as unfair.

Reasonable people can argue about where that line is for any given instance, but in the end it kind of comes down to players voting with their feet.

@Sparks Everything you said, yes. Most players don't realize or appreciate what a grueling, thankless task it is to be a MUSH staffer. Staffers must attend to the minutia of running a game, endure a constant barrage of complaints and drama, and entertain dozens of players with very disparate/opposing goals. To expect them to do all that without any perks/benefits is frankly absurd.

@Sparks said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

But those kind of perks should always be additive; they should be a benefit to the volunteer without being a detriment to someone else.

I agree, but this is where a lot of ten tension comes in. There's so much entitlement in the world that people have a hard time seeing the difference between "a volunteer did extra work and got one of the ten signed copies as a reward" and "that pesky volunteer got a book and I didn't. Unfair!"

As for the other "benefits"?

You can change the course of the entire game

Why on earth would you want to do that?

And you get to RP any NPC at any time as befits the game.

I suppose there are some staffers out there who get their jollies NPCing Princess Leia in a medal ceremony, but most of us find it to be a terrible chore.

And you have an organized support network, which is far more than non-staff players can say.

LOL. I wish.

@Sparks said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

And then it's nobody's game.

Very much agreed. Staff can't really dictate culture, per se, but they can and should drive the culture. This is done through the plots they run, the code they write, the types of characters they approve (or don't), the things they reward (and how), and the behavior they tolerate (or stamp down).

@Lotherio said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Honestly I'm good with both.

Yeah and I should clarify too - I think it's best if folks do try to meet in the middle a little. It just makes for a healthier game overall if more people are able to engage with it and have fun. I may do a random scene with a new player just to make them feel welcome, or make a token appearance at a party (even though I generally dislike random/big scenes), because those efforts can pay dividends in the long-run of ensuring that the game still has critical mass of players logging in to stay open.

But expecting people to do that, and accusing them of being selfish/elitist/sucking/whatever if they don't? That, I think, is not right. It's a game, not an obligation. (That's not directed at your remark personally; just in general.)

@Lotherio said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

The folks only on to chat with friends to line up RP for later is a turnoff for some that likes spontaneity, as much as the hyper thirsty new player always asking for RP can be.

I think that instead of expecting people to compromise on a game that we're doing for our own enjoyment, we just need more recognition that people play these games differently and that's okay.

If you're playing the game at all, then you're contributing to the game's story and community in your own way. Even private scenes with friends often have ripples to other players. And if Bob and Mary are only ever holed up in their hideout never RPing with anybody but each other, they're not actually doing any harm to the game (especially compared to if they weren't there at all.)

There's nothing wrong with walking away from a game if it's not a good fit for you. But let's not forget that these are games. Expecting me to spend my precious free time playing a kind of game I don't like, or in a way I don't like, is... kind of weird.

@Florida-Man said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I only log in to play, so I don't consider this expectation unreasonable.

Logging in only to play is certainly not unreasonable. That's your choice. Just as someone can join a baseball team, attend each game/practice faithfully, never speak to another soul on the team outside of game-related conversation, and then go home. There's nothing wrong with that, but expecting everyone else to do it too is unreasonable. Communities socialize. Like it or not, MUSHes are communities. It's not just about the game.

@Florida-Man On MMOs you'll certainly see folks hanging out on the TeamSpeak or Discord servers just to chat with their guildmates even when they're not "play-ok". Other online RP forums will see people visiting the forums or chat during their downtime even when they can't actually RP. Still others are built so that "RP" doesn't involve a 3-hour-solid time commitment, or have a culture where there's no OOC interaction at all, so those are kind of apples vs oranges. Even TTRPG players will often spend a bunch of the evening gabbing while waiting for something/someone or just for fun.

I don't really think it's unique to MUSHes, except that on a MUSH there seems to be this unreasonable expectation that "oh you're logged in, clearly you should be here to play".

Most movies are inherently cash grabs...that’s kind of the business I think the live action versions are as much about expanding to a new audience of tweens than nostalgia though. My kids and their friends are starting to outgrow cartoons and they love the live action ones.

@Auspice - @Ninjakitten is right, though, that it doesn't show up in the active scenes list or active scene pages. That's just an oversight, which I can fix in the next patch. If folks want to be able to see it on private scenes they're participating in, I can add that too.

@Ghost said in Incentives for RP:

But I can think of a few cool perks, like:

Sure those are nice perks. But do you really think anyone is going to be motivated to go out and run plots for people (a thankless, frustrating job) just to be able to pose that their X-Wing is black? So again it comes down to why you're doing it. If it's a perk for folks who were going to do the stuff anyway - sure, let them have a black X-Wing. No harm done. But as a motivation? Color me skeptical.

@Auspice Thanks. But yeah, occasionally Digital Ocean changes their setup and I have to tweak something in the install scripts, but that fortunately doesn't happen too often. Unless there's an unforseen hiccup like that, the self-install should be seamless. If it hits a snag, I'm happy to help.

I've been in the leadership of a volunteer organization in RL, and I think you find a lot of the same issues that we face on MUSHes. Someone either has a volunteer mentality or they don't. Incentives just don't work very well, unless they're super-enticing. (like $$ in the real world)

I think the RPG realm, stuff that makes your character badass is inherently super-enticing, which is why XP-based or trinket-based systems do work well. Unfortunately, they are fraught with abuse, imbalance, and an inherent unfairness in rewarding those with more time on their hands so now you have a class of haves and have-nots.

The alternate currencies require some system in which to use them. On my BSG games it was mostly +combat. Earn some luck points, get some more hero moments. If you've got some kind of action point economy, that can work too. But if you're running a mostly cooperative, story-driven game, your opportunities for making such a thing useful is fairly limited, and thus the alternate currency is not going to be very enticing. It's kind of nice for the people who were going to do it anyway, but it's not likely to actually motivate people who weren't already inclined to do the thing.

@Seraphim73 said in Incentives for RP:

Because yes, everyone is here for RP, because MUSHes are RP games, but not everyone is here to spread plot hooks and welcome new players onto the grid and generally support the actions of others. Many players feel that's burdensome, so if you want it, you incentivize it.

I think at this point I'm mostly in the "get off my lawn" phase of MUSH running. If I need to bribe you to get involved in plots, or be welcoming to new players, or support the others, then why are you even here? I'm just not inclined to cater to those people any more.

@observer3000 In case you hadn't seen it, I have a program where I will install an Ares game for you. The install scripts are also pretty copy/paste automated if you choose to do a self-install.

There aren't many experienced Ares coders out there at this point, but if anyone is interested in learning there is a whole host of tutorials to get started.

@Thenomain said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Bar RP is not now nor has it ever been bad. I’m going to offer a pair of middle digits to anyone and everyone who pisses on Bar RP for being Bar RP.

Bar RP is not inherently bad.

I personally find Bar RP painfully boring, for the same reasons I don't like just going to the bar or a party and hanging out in RL.

If it's fun for you - great. Go forth and Bar RP. But it's not fun for everyone, and that's OK too.

@Arkandel said in Incentives for RP:

That's often because their systems are derived from table-top systems which don't require any other progression ladders, but for MU* there are so many possibilities.

The TTRPG analogy is interesting, because I think when you look at the reason XP systems exist in TTRPGs, it's not to "incentivize people to play". Hopefully you're showing up at the table because you're having fun with your friends and the GM is telling a good story.

I'd argue that XP systems are more about the OOC learning curve (i.e. don't overwhelm the newbies with too many rules to learn, spells to memorize, etc.) and a reflection of the Hero's Journey (start off small and go epic) and have very little to do with providing motivation for the players to keep playing.

If your players are only showing up for the XP, your game has issues.

ETA: MMOs are more about the level grind than TTRPGs, but that's a different animal. The leveling/loot/etc. is baked into the way you unlock additional game content and such, and keeps you on the treadmill of spending money in their ecosystem.

@Pyrephox said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

It would be really awesome to be able to delete unshared scenes, though. My few false starts just hang out there, forever, and I haaaaaaaate it.

Oh, you know what - I stand corrected. You could at one point do this, but then I got concerned that someone might delete an unshared scene before the other players got around to downloading the log or whatnot. So I turned it off. Maybe I'll make it so you could do it if you're the only scene participant or something. I'll look into it.

@bear_necessities said in Incentives for RP:

That being said, I have to agree with @faraday to a point - I'm never going to set up a REGULAR reward system, because the point of playing a game is to tell stories. But hey, every so often? I'll give people kudos as a thank you for spreading the love.

Just to be clear - I do fully support giving some sort of kudos (luck points, public praise, etc.) for folks who go above and beyond the normal bar of RPing. Like folks who organize events, run plots for others, etc. But the idea that you need incentives just to play is what's weird to me.

@Kanye-Qwest said in Incentives for RP:

Why do people not exercise? Isn't having a long and healthy life literally the point of being alive?

I don't think that's a valid analogy. We're talking about a form of entertainment here that people are voluntarily participating in. A better analogy would be: Why would you join a baseball team if you don't intend to go to the games and play?

@Ghost said in Incentives for RP:

I'm with you here. If you're at the point where you have to try to incentivize people to be inclusive, there's kind of a bigger issue. This may be the wrong question/wrong approach to the issue/complaint.

Yeah, I think that another way to incentivize RP on your game is to make the RP fun. Getting people involved and giving them interesting things to get involved in doesn't have to require trinkets and rewards.

I must confess though that I've always found it weird that you need to incentivize RP at all. Like... RP is literally the point of the game. Why do I need a carrot on a stick to get people to tell stories, on a game that's about telling stories?

It's pretty baffling to me, honestly.